Inches away from buying a Alderlea T5 Insert - so what is the hold up? what would you do?

[cowtown]

Dan, It's your house, your heat, and your $. The only person you need to worry about disappointing is you. . .and maybe the Mrs. Okay, so you've decided to get the T5 for ~ $3k. How 'bout taking a pause and putting as much effort into choosing a chimney for $2k? I'm sure the boomtown thing is part of it (oil $ ?), but I'm not surprised that you can't get a chimney guy out right away. It's their busy season. . .probably started getting busy a month ago up there.

Plenty of folks on here run without insulation, but I am surprised at someone being "against" flue insulation. Like I said, if your masonry flue is large enough to accept it, I see no reason to recommend against insulation, other than laziness, and ~ $200 cost, which is not very significant in a $5k project. I was not going to insulate. Some knowledgeable folks said I didn't really need it in my climate, and I didn't feel like wrestling with gluing it onto the liner and then worrying about ripping it during installation. . .then I came across the InsulFlex liner which came with the insulation already attached inside an aluminum sleeve. Cost ~ $150 more than a plain liner, and the only extra work was lugging 50 lbs onto the roof instead of 20 lbs. Both insignificant to me in the context on ensuring optimal draft in as wide a range of conditions as possible.

I would keep calling chimney guys. I have to believe that a city of ~ 1,000,000 has at least 1 chimney guy who is going to say,"Block off plate?. . .Absolutely. It's the only way to fly. Yeah, I can get out there next week. . ." In the meantime, you could read up about chimneys. That www.woodheat.org site is a good place to start.
Flex pipe? Rigid pipe? ICC, Magnaflex, Selkirk, Simpson? All kinds of choices to make!

Yes, the price of oil makes/breaks this town. The price of oil is not too bad, so business is good out here in this neck of the wood (I am probably the only one on this board that wants to see higher oil prices )

In terms of what I am getting for the incremantal money is the following:
1. A rigid liner and cap
2. Demo/removal of the facing bricks (see pics on previous page)
3. Capping off the "Gas assist" in the fireplace
4. The entire install
5. Someone I can bother if things go wrong
6. There is sales tax of $250 in the quote

This guy I am dealing with is a "stand-up" guy, he is doing what he thinks is the best install (and who knows, maybe for Calgary it is). I will let you know how things go today (I am waiting on a quote from a second place for the T5 - getting this quote has been like pulling teeth, but I just want to make sure that I am not overpaying by Calgary standards, I know I am by U.S. standards)

 

[cowtown]

Option 3: Line the chimney with a poured-in cement-insulation slurry. No screwing around. . .insulated and blocked-off, by design. No debate required. :coolsmile:
Cost is slightly more than an insulated stainless liner, but a metal liner really is pretty simple DIY. If I were going to pay $2k+ for a liner installation, this is how I'd go. . .kind of like how I order in a restaurant; I don't get something that I can make easily at home.
Now you just have to find a guy in Calgary who does this. . .

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/75136/

(broken link removed to http://www.supaflu.com/index.htm)

1-800-788-7636

Again - appreciate all the help on this. This looks good, the only issue for me is that I have two flues in the one chimney and I am only converting one of the fireplaces at a time.

 

[ddddddden]

In terms of what I am getting for the incremental money is the following:
1. A rigid liner and cap
2. Demo/removal of the facing bricks (see pics on previous page)
3. Capping off the "Gas assist" in the fireplace
4. The entire install
5. Someone I can bother if things go wrong

Any chimney guy worth his salt can do all of the above.

I think I am leaning to just letting the WETT guy do his thing. . .This guy I am dealing with is a "stand-up" guy, he is doing what he thinks is the best install (and who knows, maybe for Calgary it is). . .

I wouldn't rely too heavily on certifications. IMO, assuming that someone knows their sh!t because they are certified is like assuming someone knows how to drive because they are licensed. I'm not saying that he is a bad guy, but the only reason(other than a few $) to advise against using a block off plate and insulation that makes *any* sense would be to use heat off of the top of the stove to keep the flue warm. This will keep the flue warm, but it's a waste of heat. We have many users in Alaska and all over Canada. I haven't read anything like "We don't use block off plates up here because it makes the flue too cold." An insert is going to lose heat to the masonry. IMO, the installation should be all about minimizing the loss.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/quotereply/917567/

There are too many variables here to make an exact determination, but it could be said that, in general, installation of an insert into a exterior masonry fireplace can cause some substantial heat losses to the outside.

Many factors are at play, some have been mentioned. Keep in mind that most exterior masonry fireplaces lose heat to the outside even when nothing is burning in there! That is, the rear wall and other parts can, depending on the exact construction method and outdoor temp, lose much more heat than an insulated wall.

Let me address the blower part of the deal. There are various parts to this. Obviously, a blower will move some of the heat out of the air chamber which otherwise may have soaked through and then been lost to the chimney structure. However, there is another factor - when you blow air around the outside of a firebox, it cools the firebox and slightly quenches the fire. It also acts to hold heat into the stove - which then end up going up the chimney. Either or both of these factors can come into play. Wood stoves are generally not engineered to perfection in this manner - that is, the designers often make a nice stove and then convert it to an insert. I don't think many of them actually test their inserts into cold fireplaces - although when I visited Travis Industries, they had a cold test chamber (they were using it only for their built-in FPX).

It's a total guess, but I would still put that 15-30% number out there for a exterior fireplace in a very cold climate (New England). This figure would decrease as the outside temp rises. Keep in mind some of the same would pertain to a stove on the hearth or in the fireplace.....so the comparison is against a freestanding stove with exposed stove pipe and insulated chimney inside the home.

On the other hand - if the fireplace is interior, the entire setup might end up being more efficient than the norm, as the masonry soaks up and later releases much of the heat from the insert and flue.

If you read that thread, you will see a dissenting opinion from BrotherBart, but I believe he does have a block off plate. Yes, we're hobbyists here, probably going after the elusive last 10% of performance, but if it's relatively cheap to do so, and it saves energy, why not go after it?

. . .This looks good, the only issue for me is that I have two flues in the one chimney and I am only converting one of the fireplaces at a time.

I think it's worth contacting SupaFlu. Maybe it's $2k for the 1st flue + $99 for each additional flue. No way to know if you don't talk to them. If you eventually got a 2nd stove, you might be able to heat your whole place. :cheese:

 

[fredarm]

I have a PE insert (Vista) in an exterior brick fireplace with no block-off plate and an 2-story uninsulated liner installed before I knew this site existed. Frankly, it works fine. Would it work a little better if it had a block-off plate and insulated liner? Proabably. But it does fine for supplemental heating. One thing about the PE inserts (at least mine and I assume the others) is that the insert is enclosed in a metal enclosure with a one-inch gap on the sides and a 2 inch gap at the top. The surround panel is fastened to the enclosure, thus blocking off the chiminey area from the room. This creates the convection effect that makes a PE insert heat pretty well even without the fan (useful for power outages). So it may be that this design results in less of a need for a block-off plate than a freestanding stove in a fireplace (like BrotherBart's), which certainly needs a block-off plate because otherwise the fireplace and chimney would be open to the room.

 

[cowtown]

In terms of what I am getting for the incremental money is the following:
1. A rigid liner and cap
2. Demo/removal of the facing bricks (see pics on previous page)
3. Capping off the "Gas assist" in the fireplace
4. The entire install
5. Someone I can bother if things go wrong

Any chimney guy worth his salt can do all of the above.

I think I am leaning to just letting the WETT guy do his thing. . .This guy I am dealing with is a "stand-up" guy, he is doing what he thinks is the best install (and who knows, maybe for Calgary it is). . .

I wouldn't rely too heavily on certifications. IMO, assuming that someone knows their sh!t because they are certified is like assuming someone knows how to drive because they are licensed. I'm not saying that he is a bad guy, but the only reason(other than a few $) to advise against using a block off plate and insulation that makes *any* sense would be to use heat off of the top of the stove to keep the flue warm. This will keep the flue warm, but it's a waste of heat. We have many users in Alaska and all over Canada. I haven't read anything like "We don't use block off plates up here because it makes the flue too cold." An insert is going to lose heat to the masonry. IMO, the installation should be all about minimizing the loss.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/quotereply/917567/

There are too many variables here to make an exact determination, but it could be said that, in general, installation of an insert into a exterior masonry fireplace can cause some substantial heat losses to the outside.

Many factors are at play, some have been mentioned. Keep in mind that most exterior masonry fireplaces lose heat to the outside even when nothing is burning in there! That is, the rear wall and other parts can, depending on the exact construction method and outdoor temp, lose much more heat than an insulated wall.

Let me address the blower part of the deal. There are various parts to this. Obviously, a blower will move some of the heat out of the air chamber which otherwise may have soaked through and then been lost to the chimney structure. However, there is another factor - when you blow air around the outside of a firebox, it cools the firebox and slightly quenches the fire. It also acts to hold heat into the stove - which then end up going up the chimney. Either or both of these factors can come into play. Wood stoves are generally not engineered to perfection in this manner - that is, the designers often make a nice stove and then convert it to an insert. I don't think many of them actually test their inserts into cold fireplaces - although when I visited Travis Industries, they had a cold test chamber (they were using it only for their built-in FPX).

It's a total guess, but I would still put that 15-30% number out there for a exterior fireplace in a very cold climate (New England). This figure would decrease as the outside temp rises. Keep in mind some of the same would pertain to a stove on the hearth or in the fireplace.....so the comparison is against a freestanding stove with exposed stove pipe and insulated chimney inside the home.

On the other hand - if the fireplace is interior, the entire setup might end up being more efficient than the norm, as the masonry soaks up and later releases much of the heat from the insert and flue.

If you read that thread, you will see a dissenting opinion from BrotherBart, but I believe he does have a block off plate. Yes, we're hobbyists here, probably going after the elusive last 10% of performance, but if it's relatively cheap to do so, and it saves energy, why not go after it?

. . .This looks good, the only issue for me is that I have two flues in the one chimney and I am only converting one of the fireplaces at a time.

I think it's worth contacting SupaFlu. Maybe it's $2k for the 1st flue + $99 for each additional flue. No way to know if you don't talk to them. If you eventually got a 2nd stove, you might be able to heat your whole place. :cheese:

Really appreciate it, I have gone to the point of finding a Chimney guy who can instal the stove - only problem is that I use this guy to clean my chimney. The issue with this guy is that I asked him to put some caps at the top of the chimney. He asked for 1/2 money down to get this manuaftured - I gave it to him (that was over 2 months ago), I have yet to see the caps. So not someone i trust to do a chimney install.

Note, I will contact him again once I finalize my T5 install. I contact my guy again and I asked him to thow in the hearth pad extension for the price I am paying - he is going to get back to me tomorrow.

 

[cowtown]

I have a PE insert (Vista) in an exterior brick fireplace with no block-off plate and an 2-story uninsulated liner installed before I knew this site existed. Frankly, it works fine. Would it work a little better if it had a block-off plate and insulated liner? Proabably. But it does fine for supplemental heating. One thing about the PE inserts (at least mine and I assume the others) is that the insert is enclosed in a metal enclosure with a one-inch gap on the sides and a 2 inch gap at the top. The surround panel is fastened to the enclosure, thus blocking off the chiminey area from the room. This creates the convection effect that makes a PE insert heat pretty well even without the fan (useful for power outages). So it may be that this design results in less of a need for a block-off plate than a freestanding stove in a fireplace (like BrotherBart's), which certainly needs a block-off plate because otherwise the fireplace and chimney would be open to the room.

Yes, the convection effect is one of the reasons I am looking at the T5.

Your post has made me feel a bit better.

I agree a block off plate would be better, but the T5 will be much better than the masnry fireplace i have now.

 

[ddddddden]

Fred, your insert/surround may not seal off the chimney as well as you think, unless it was installed with some type of gasket material. There is some heat-resistant thick weatherstripping type of stuff available for this purpose. . .I'll see if I can dig up a link.

I don't think this is the same one that I saw in a thread on the forum, but you get the idea. . .

(broken link removed to http://www.northlineexpress.com/item/5RU-105/-Fireplace-Insert-Insulation-Self-Adhesive)

Self adhesive strip insulation
Forms a smoke and gas tight seal between a fireplace insert and existing masonry


Even if well sealed at the surround/hearth, my Jedi sense tells me that a significant amount of heat will rise up the empty chimney space without a block off above the insert. Our old insert had a convection shell around it, similar to what you describe(I think), and we heated water for beverages on the part of the shell that projected out of the fireplace. . .with the blower running. An insert shell might not get up to 600°F like a stovetop, but it stays well above room temp, IME. Without a block off plate, heat off of the insert shell is transferred to the air inside the entire chimney space, which has plenty of surface area to radiate the heat outside. I can't put any numbers on this, but I'm pretty sure that the fundamental idea is correct. I understand that it might not seem worth the bother to yank out an existing install to stop the loss of an unknown amount of heat, but refusing to do it from the beginning like Dan's guy is. . .well, that'a just wrong-headed! :gulp:

 

[ddddddden]

Funny, Dan, I was about to suggest the need for future cleanings as a reason to keep "interviewing" chimney guys. I'd go ahead and call the guy with your caps now. If he's familiar with your setup, he ought to be able to give you a ballpark estimate for an insert + liner install over the phone. If you don't trust him, you don't trust him, but you could still talk to him for a 3rd opinion.

 

[ddddddden]

Yes, I came across this as well, but I have seen things on this site where Canadian people have installed an insulated liner.
Yes, I think I am leaning to just letting the WETT guy do his thing.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/32269/

So where does the heat go when no block off plate is installed?

I'm not sure myself. As Rudyjr mentioned, I have a rockwool plug in my damper (plan on pulling it out and installing a block off plate soon). My thoughts are like this:

Chimneys are not airtight structures - they have cracks, and are made from pourous materials. Many chimneys have other appliances in them in adjacent flues, and those appliances are not airtight either.
Convective currents will build around the flue and cool it - with a constant supply of fresh air, more cooling will occur. Plate will reduce the frsh air supply
Block off plate gives a mechanical form in the fireplace to encourage convective circulation back into the room.

As for an airtight seal at the chimney top, I doubt it can be done well enough to last long. High temp silicone won't take the heat of a wood fired flue (1000-1200*F), and stove cement isn't meant for outdoor exposure. That, and the amount of heated bouyant air around the 1200*F stainless pipe that is heating the space inside the chimney is going to get out any hole it can, like the small gap where my flex liner comes thru the top plate - not air tight, and never will be without sealing it every few months. And then there is the clean out, (mine in the basement is stove cemented shut)

I'm not certain that block off plates are the holy grail, but they do seem to work well by all reports, and are not difficult, just tedious. I promise to install one,

once my installer gets back here to fix my liner instal so it meets code (uninsulated liner in a 75 year old brick chimney with no clearances to combustibles = code violation and hot walls, but he is WETT certified, so he must be right.....NOT!)

:cheese: :lol: ;-)

 

[ddddddden]

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/30660/

When I did my insert install w/full liner I was told I did not have to do a damper blockoff. (exterior brick chimney) Well, after 2 months of burning I decided to do a blockoff, because in the AM a lot of my room heat was going into the chimney. My blockoff is lower than the damper, from the lintel straight back horizontally to the back of the heatform. (about 4" above the stove) It is thin steel plate with several layers of ceramic insulation on top. Just installed it today and tonight is my first burn with it. It has made a very noticeable difference in the heat output of the stove. If I were you that's the route I would go, as not only does it seal in room heat, but it also captures heat from the back of the stove and makes it go into the room.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/51525/



https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/install_insert

 

[cowtown]

Funny, Dan, I was about to suggest the need for future cleanings as a reason to keep "interviewing" chimney guys. I'd go ahead and call the guy with your caps now. If he's familiar with your setup, he ought to be able to give you a ballpark estimate for an insert + liner install over the phone. If you don't trust him, you don't trust him, but you could still talk to him for a 3rd opinion.

Good point, I will contact him today - it will be interesting to see what his view is on a block-off plate.

 

[cowtown]

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/30660/

When I did my insert install w/full liner I was told I did not have to do a damper blockoff. (exterior brick chimney) Well, after 2 months of burning I decided to do a blockoff, because in the AM a lot of my room heat was going into the chimney. My blockoff is lower than the damper, from the lintel straight back horizontally to the back of the heatform. (about 4" above the stove) It is thin steel plate with several layers of ceramic insulation on top. Just installed it today and tonight is my first burn with it. It has made a very noticeable difference in the heat output of the stove. If I were you that's the route I would go, as not only does it seal in room heat, but it also captures heat from the back of the stove and makes it go into the room.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/51525/



https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/install_insert

To me the block-off plate makes sense, I will try to find a resolution to this today. I will let you know how it goes.

 

[cowtown]

Minor update

Okay, the dealer I have been dealing with will not put in a block off plate - he is dead set against it.

I called a few other chimney places and let a message of looking for an install only quote - yea, no one returned my calls (sweet).

I am still waiting on the one quote from the second and only other person who can sell me the T5 insert I thought I would have had it today (but it has only been 8 days since I contacted them )

I will let you know what happens tomorrow - if I get the second quote in my hand I will then make the decision.

 

[ddddddden]

It's the busiest time of the year for these guys. . .kind of llke trying to buy toys before Christmas. I would call some more places and be patient. Maybe start a thread asking if anyone knows a good chimney sweep in Calgary. I still think you should contact SupaFlue too. You might be surprised at what they charge to do a double flue. I don't know. . .it might turn out to be something like $2500 to pour a double flue vs. $3500 to install 2 stainless liners. You might not get another stove for a few years, but when you do, your chimey will be all set. :cheese: Woohoo!

 

[ddddddden]

oh yeah. . .has this guy ever offered any reason for refusing to do a block off, or is it more like,"I said NO," and you're supposed to just accept it because he's certified?

 

[cowtown]

oh yeah. . .has this guy ever offered any reason for refusing to do a block off, or is it more like,"I said NO," and you're supposed to just accept it because he's certified?

He just doesn't think it is necessary and simply won't do it.

Finally got the second quote. It is $1,200 less but does not include the stone work I need done (cutting of some bricks), does not include the hearth pad, does not include the cap off of the gas assist.

I think I should be able to get all of this done for less than $1,200 - will look into this tomorrow.

Also asked the second quote people about a block-off plate, I will see what they say.

 

[ddddddden]

I don't think either of these things is a big deal. The protruding bricks can simply be ground down. Capping the gas line is simple plumbing. I'd guesstimate maybe $250 total for that work. + $250 for a hearth pad. That leaves $700 to offer anyone who will install a block off! :cheese:

 

[cowtown]

I don't think either of these things is a big deal. The protruding bricks can simply be ground down. Capping the gas line is simple plumbing. I'd guesstimate maybe $250 total for that work. + $250 for a hearth pad. That leaves $700 to offer anyone who will install a block off! :cheese:

Yes, excited - hopefully get a lot done today. Up here, I am guessing $500 for both. We shall see. Hearth pad will be $300 tax included.

Only concern is not getting this all done before October (if I order before october I get free surrounds with the T5)

 

[fredarm]

Fred, your insert/surround may not seal off the chimney as well as you think, unless it was installed with some type of gasket material. There is some heat-resistant thick weatherstripping type of stuff available for this purpose. . .I'll see if I can dig up a link.

Even if well sealed at the surround/hearth, my Jedi sense tells me that a significant amount of heat will rise up the empty chimney space without a block off above the insert. Our old insert had a convection shell around it, similar to what you describe(I think), and we heated water for beverages on the part of the shell that projected out of the fireplace. . .with the blower running. An insert shell might not get up to 600°F like a stovetop, but it stays well above room temp, IME. Without a block off plate, heat off of the insert shell is transferred to the air inside the entire chimney space, which has plenty of surface area to radiate the heat outside. I can't put any numbers on this, but I'm pretty sure that the fundamental idea is correct. I understand that it might not seem worth the bother to yank out an existing install to stop the loss of an unknown amount of heat, but refusing to do it from the beginning like Dan's guy is. . .well, that'a just wrong-headed! :gulp:

Thanks for the recommendation on the self -adhesive strip insulation. It would be an easy fix to take off the surround and install that. I think it's pretty tight as is--I've never smelled any smoky smell around the insert when it's not in use. After finding this site a couple of years ago (a year or so after the install by a fireplace store), I asked my sweep about installing a block-off plate and he looked at me like I had just asked him to install stereo speakers on the stove. Since I'm an evening and weekend burner and am not looking to get every last BTU out of the setup, I decided to live with the install as is and, as noted above, it hasn't really been an issue for me (maybe because I don't know what I'm missing )

 

[begreen]

If you were told that a block off plate would cost you an additional $250, would you go for it? Installing a block off plate can be really time consuming if you don't work well with metal or have little experience installing them. I suspect his refusal to install is based on inexperience and a strong desire to keep the bid competitive. That is why many installers just pack kaowool around the damper area. Up on top you will find the same thing. A good installer will either have a custom cap designed to form fit the top of the chimney that has a lip that comes down at least an inch to create a good water barrier. The down-and-dirty installer will just silicone a flat plate on top of the chimney tile. In between a decent installer will at least cut the top plate and fold down the edge of the cap to create a drip edge.

Personally I would not shop for the lowest bidder, but would look for the person that gives an estimate that covers detailing thoroughly so that there are no leaks and no surprises come mid-winter. By all means ask for references and check them out.

 

[cowtown]

Fred, your insert/surround may not seal off the chimney as well as you think, unless it was installed with some type of gasket material. There is some heat-resistant thick weatherstripping type of stuff available for this purpose. . .I'll see if I can dig up a link.

Even if well sealed at the surround/hearth, my Jedi sense tells me that a significant amount of heat will rise up the empty chimney space without a block off above the insert. Our old insert had a convection shell around it, similar to what you describe(I think), and we heated water for beverages on the part of the shell that projected out of the fireplace. . .with the blower running. An insert shell might not get up to 600°F like a stovetop, but it stays well above room temp, IME. Without a block off plate, heat off of the insert shell is transferred to the air inside the entire chimney space, which has plenty of surface area to radiate the heat outside. I can't put any numbers on this, but I'm pretty sure that the fundamental idea is correct. I understand that it might not seem worth the bother to yank out an existing install to stop the loss of an unknown amount of heat, but refusing to do it from the beginning like Dan's guy is. . .well, that'a just wrong-headed! :gulp:

Thanks for the recommendation on the self -adhesive strip insulation. It would be an easy fix to take off the surround and install that. I think it's pretty tight as is--I've never smelled any smoky smell around the insert when it's not in use. After finding this site a couple of years ago (a year or so after the install by a fireplace store), I asked my sweep about installing a block-off plate and he looked at me like I had just asked him to install stereo speakers on the stove. Since I'm an evening and weekend burner and am not looking to get every last BTU out of the setup, I decided to live with the install as is and, as noted above, it hasn't really been an issue for me (maybe because I don't know what I'm missing )

That is where, I am at, I am going to be a evening and weekend burner - the advice on this site is great and I know everyone here means the best. Everyone I have spoken with out here will not put in a block-off plate "install stereo spekers on the stove" (yea - know that look).

 

[cowtown]

If you were told that a block off plate would cost you an additional $250, would you go for it? Installing a block off plate can be really time consuming if you don't work well with metal or have little experience installing them. I suspect his refusal to install is based on inexperience and a strong desire to keep the bid competitive. That is why many installers just pack kaowool around the damper area. Up on top you will find the same thing. A good installer will either have a custom cap designed to form fit the top of the chimney that has a lip that comes down at least an inch to create a good water barrier. The down-and-dirty installer will just silicone a flat plate on top of the chimney tile. In between a decent installer will at least cut the top plate and fold down the edge of the cap to create a drip edge.

Personally I would not shop for the lowest bidder, but would look for the person that gives an estimate that covers detailing thoroughly so that there are no leaks and no surprises come mid-winter. By all means ask for references and check them out.

For $250, I would do the block-off plate in a heart beat.

There are two shops here that sell and install the T5, I am comfortable with both.

 

[ddddddden]

I agree with Mr. Green on going with a detailed job over the low bid. Unfortunately, the first bid appears to be neither. ~ $2k, and won't block off or insulate the liner, with the customer offering to pay extra. If I read correctly, the 2nd bid = $800, but doesn't include grinding some hearth brick and capping the gas line. Dunno if they refuse to do those things, or if it wasn't discussed. Who knows what kind of cap either of them uses? Also agree on asking for references. Dan, AFAICS, there's no reason why you couldn't order the stove before having the installer lined up. Worst case = the stove arrives soon, and the store will not hold it for you, so it sits in your garage or living room until the best chimney guy in town can get to you, which could easily be a month in the busy season. By the same token, if a chimneysweep can see you tomorrow, you have to wonder why he is not busier at this time of year. Anyhow, it looks like the T5 surround discount is only $110. (See www.chimneysweeponline.com)

 

[ddddddden]

Fred, when that ad for the insulation stripping mentions smoke, I think it's a reference to the good ol' "slammer" installs, where the insert vents directly into the masonry. If you have a full chimney liner, smoke wouldn't be an issue. The point is that the metal surround doesn't really form a tight seal on the hearth masonry. No smoke, just heat loss. Yeah, you probably wouldn't know the difference without doing a before/after comparison, but the same could probably be said for weatherstripping the front door of your house.

 

[cowtown]

I agree with Mr. Green on going with a detailed job over the low bid. Unfortunately, the first bid appears to be neither. ~ $2k, and won't block off or insulate the liner, with the customer offering to pay extra. If I read correctly, the 2nd bid = $800, but doesn't include grinding some hearth brick and capping the gas line. Dunno if they refuse to do those things, or if it wasn't discussed. Who knows what kind of cap either of them uses? Also agree on asking for references. Dan, AFAICS, there's no reason why you couldn't order the stove before having the installer lined up. Worst case = the stove arrives soon, and the store will not hold it for you, so it sits in your garage or living room until the best chimney guy in town can get to you, which could easily be a month in the busy season. By the same token, if a chimneysweep can see you tomorrow, you have to wonder why he is not busier at this time of year. Anyhow, it looks like the T5 surround discount is only $110. (See www.chimneysweeponline.com)

Okay, the quote for $1,200 less does include capping the gas assist. So now I just need to get the brick removed and the hearth extension for under $1,200.

The lower quote has a more detailed explaination of everything - and he is not going to charge me to show up this coming wednesday to look at things and frim up the quote.

Called a bunch of masonry guys today, at least 10 - most didnt' return my call and the other are not interested in the work. I migh thave to do it myself.