Insert Advise/Build along

[Mtn Runner]

Starting the process of upgrading an old insert with a new EPA approved insert. I have been in contact with a local fireplace/stove store, but not getting the warm fuzzies from them and they are expensive. So, this has turned into a DYI project and will need a few pointers and in the process, maybe others might learn something from this process and my errors.
The insert will be used to heat the main floor of my house, a mostly open (living/dinning/kitchen is one room) and is about 2100 sf with high ceilings and plenty of glass in the main room. The house is older, built in 1973 with questionable insulation. As for the fire place, masonry firebox (41 w 31 h 27 d), tile flue (more than plenty big for a 6" liner) and about 17" chimney, all is in good shape (no missing/loose bricks, large cracks or other signs of damage. The house still has a bit of an older look/feel, so an insert that fits in (no super modern looks). Must be EPA approved and be on this list: http://www.unrbep.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/RWC_DEVICE_20160511.pdf

I don' think this list is exhaustive or complete, so I can call and check on others.
Roof is rather flat so I can work on the roof (flue liner/ top cap...) without issue.
A budge project, but fully intend to balance quality, quite fans, with price.

I am thinking a large insert to fill this large fireplace, plus larger wood and longer burn times.

Recommendations for an insert?
Also, many types (and costs) for flex flue liner, what is preferred?

Photos to come

Thanks all.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

For starters, your flex liner will need to be insulated. This can be overlooked or downplayed by some installers, but necessary nonetheless. Others will chime in with other thoughtsvas well.

 

[timfromohio]

I had a good experience with a Pacific Energy insert - they are on your list. Check out the "Super" or Summit" inserts and see what you think.

(broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/products/wood/inserts/summit-insert/)

 

[begreen]

You have several choices from PE, Regency, Osburn, Lopi, Quadrafire, etc.. Now is not the cheapest time to buy as demand is high now. Call around to many dealers to find your best pricing. If the budget is tight look into 3 cu ft Osburn 2400 inserts. They provide a good value. The Regency I3100 and the PE Summit will be a bit more. Include a 6" insulated liner in the budget.

 

[Mtn Runner]

Thanks all for the comments. As for the inserts, I have been looking at several mentioned.

As for liners, there is a multitude of flex liners out there. Are some better than others? Or, is there some that I should stay away from?

 

[NoobTube]

I've got an Osburn 2400 insert. It was the biggest unit I could fit in my firebox. I looked into Blazeking, but the money just wasnt right on it. I have an uninsulated ss liner with vermiculite insulation and a blockoff plate. The stove runs hotter than the fires of Hades, and will keep your house warm no problem.

 

[begreen]

Thanks all for the comments. As for the inserts, I have been looking at several mentioned.

As for liners, there is a multitude of flex liners out there. Are some better than others? Or, is there some that I should stay away from?

The best liner would be a heavy duty flex or a rigid liner. Two layer, smooth wall liners are reported to have issues that you'll want to avoid. Search on liners here. There are many threads on this topic.

 

[Ashful]

tile flue (more than plenty big for a 6" liner) and about 17" chimney, all is in good shape (no missing/loose bricks, large cracks or other signs of damage.

For starters, your flex liner will need to be insulated. This can be overlooked or downplayed by some installers, but necessary nonetheless. Others will chime in with other thoughtsvas well.

Unless I missed something, you're overstating, here. There is no legal requirement to insulate a liner on a to-code chimney in good condition.

Depending on the efficiency and minimum burn rate of your stove, you may see a substantial performance benefit from an insulated liner, but there are likely more folks running un-insulated stainless liners than insulated. Heck, my last stove ran directly into the clay tile liner for almost 20 years, with no legal issue, and very minimal performance hit. Doing this requires a positive connection between stove pipe and clay liner, we're not talking slammers, here.

 

[begreen]

Sizing the stove to the liner is also critical. The chimney liner area should not be larger than 2.5x the area of the stove flue collar.

Ashful, if you have had a chimney that was code compliant for clearances from combustibles that seems to be an exception. Of the chimneys I have seen and torn out only one was compliant and that was for a furnace, done in the 1970s.

 

[bholler]

Unless I missed something, you're overstating, here. There is no legal requirement to insulate a liner on a to-code chimney in good condition.

Depending on the efficiency and minimum burn rate of your stove, you may see a substantial performance benefit from an insulated liner, but there are likely more folks running un-insulated stainless liners than insulated. Heck, my last stove ran directly into the clay tile liner for almost 20 years, with no legal issue, and very minimal performance hit. Doing this requires a positive connection between stove pipe and clay liner, we're not talking slammers, here.

Like bg said the vast majority of masonry chimneys do not meet code requirements for clearance. Insulation remedies that issue. But you also have the issue of ul listing. I have yet to see a liner that was tested for solid fuel without insulation. And you are required to install according to the ul listing by code. So if the liner was not tested for the application without insulation you are required to insulate to meet code. And besides insulation improves the performance of any chimney.

 

[Ke harrison]

Starting the process of upgrading an old insert with a new EPA approved insert. I have been in contact with a local fireplace/stove store, but not getting the warm fuzzies from them and they are expensive. So, this has turned into a DYI project and will need a few pointers and in the process, maybe others might learn something from this process and my errors.
The insert will be used to heat the main floor of my house, a mostly open (living/dinning/kitchen is one room) and is about 2100 sf with high ceilings and plenty of glass in the main room. The house is older, built in 1973 with questionable insulation. As for the fire place, masonry firebox (41 w 31 h 27 d), tile flue (more than plenty big for a 6" liner) and about 17" chimney, all is in good shape (no missing/loose bricks, large cracks or other signs of damage. The house still has a bit of an older look/feel, so an insert that fits in (no super modern looks). Must be EPA approved and be on this list: http://www.unrbep.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/RWC_DEVICE_20160511.pdf

I don' think this list is exhaustive or complete, so I can call and check on others.
Roof is rather flat so I can work on the roof (flue liner/ top cap...) without issue.
A budge project, but fully intend to balance quality, quite fans, with price.

I am thinking a large insert to fill this large fireplace, plus larger wood and longer burn times.

Recommendations for an insert?
Also, many types (and costs) for flex flue liner, what is preferred?

Photos to come

Thanks all.

First I had a osburn 2400 for going on 20 years I would not recommend them for the following reasons one based out of Canada exchange rate means more cost for parts. Second the parts from osburn are cheaply made especially the secondary burn tubes cost me from 60 to 90 dollars eacheach. And older models have a engineering defect of using a metal t bar above middle tub so it get Superboy an begins to warp the sag onto the burner tube then it bends. Make sure your osburn 2400 is the new one that uses only 2 long bricks for the baffle. This solve many problems. Also the door gaskests tend to leak leading to over firing. This due to fact gasket in literally cut due to fact it seals against the 1.\8 inch lip. Also found the flat dampener on the side tend to get bent in shipping or installation. This makes I it hard to open or close. Finally their 120 cfm blower sucks. It has a exposed electrical mother allowing ash and dust is so it fails after a 2-5 years and can become loud an rattling. I found a 3 phase closed moter at granger that is 300 cfm an kicks out heat so I'm in Hawaii. The burn tubes for american inserts like lasic are half that of osburn and their two to four times thicker and are drilled not punched. So last longer. It this slap engineering cost osburn my recommendations.

 

[Mtn Runner]

Well, after a lot of looking at the many good comments here (thanks all), and many more i-net searches ans reading, I keep coming back to the Osburn 2400. As most of you know, price shopping can be hard due to the "add-ons" like trim, handles, back plate/surround. This might not be the best made insert, but I don't expect to live in this house the rest of my life, otherwise I would be looking a large remodel and installing a free standing stove like a Jotul, like we had when I was young.

 

[mellow]

How is your wood supply? One of the most overlooked issues is having dry wood once you spend $2k+ on installing a stove, hopefully this will be for next winter and you are splitting and stacking your wood now.

 

[NW Pa Burner]

Mtn Runner I install an Osburn 2400 in 2015 and haven't had an issue yet besides some paint pealing. Ran a 6" insulated liner to top of chimney and cleaned it this year for the first time with little creosote (dust) generated. First couple years I burned less than ideal fuel but finally got caught up and have a 3 to 4 years waiting in the wings. The stove heats my house no problem and the ability to throw 20" pieces in the stove is nice. Bought the stove and liner from Woodlanddirect, shipped to my door. Sounds like I have a stove in a similar setup in a room with 17' ceiling and 120+ square feet of glass.

Went with tube stove because I wasn't ahead on firewood and didn't want to worry about what I was burning and the CAT. Now that I am ahead I sometimes wonder if the even heat output and longer burn time of a CAT stove would be worth it. I don't run the stove until it is under 40 degrees during the day and when it is I run it 24/7.

 

[NoobTube]

A jotul is no better (in my opinion) than a Osburn. If you were talking about a Blaze King King Ultra, then I can see the difference. When I was selecting my stove it was between the Osburn and The Jotul inserts, and the cost difference for what my wife wanted was a lot more for the Jotul, and while it was certainly a prettier stove, it was flush faced and I knew right then and there, with no mass outside of the fireplace, it was going to almost completely rely on its blowers. At least with the Osburn you have a good deal of steel outside the fireplace for convective heating.

 

[Ashful]

A jotul is no better (in my opinion) than a Osburn. If you were talking about a Blaze King King Ultra, then I can see the difference. When I was selecting my stove it was between the Osburn and The Jotul inserts, and the cost difference for what my wife wanted was a lot more for the Jotul, and while it was certainly a prettier stove, it was flush faced and I knew right then and there, with no mass outside of the fireplace, it was going to almost completely rely on its blowers. At least with the Osburn you have a good deal of steel outside the fireplace for convective heating.

Having owned more Jotuls than almost anyone else on this forum, and shopped the newer Jotuls as replacements for those I had, I can't agree with this. Jotul's build quality is superb. My three Jotuls, although 20+ years old, did not have any mechanical flaws or wear issues that prevented them from working as well (or as poorly) as they ever did.

I really don't have any personal experience with Osburn, so maybe I don't have the cred to say much, here. But it doesn't take a lot of time on this forum to run across good amount of negative press on Osburn, and almost nothing but positive press on Jotul.

Now, if you're going to throw BK into the mix, yes... there's a big difference in performance between BK and either of these brands. In this regard, the Jotul and Osburn may be more similar, but I'd never say "a Jotul is no better than an Osburn".

 

[kdenneny]

I self installed an Osburn 2400 insert in 2015, and have been VERY happy with it. 6" non insulated 25' flex liner inside a 1980's brick existing fireplace.

Heats my 2200 sq ft raised ranch very well. It is in the downstairs family room. I put a giant return vent across the room from it and run the house heater fan 24/7 when the stove is lit. The only "upgrade" I have done was to replace the high/low fan speed switch on the insert blower with a variable potentiometer. I found high to be too loud on for watching tv, and low to not move enough air. The adjustable potentiometer does the trick.

I bought it online here: www.osburnwoodstoves.com Total cost in October 2015 was $2699 including black trim, medium faceplate, blower, liner, cap, delivery, etc.

Hope this helps, Good Luck!

 

[mellow]

Other option would be to buy a Router Speed control at Harbor Freight to control your fan speed.

 

[NW Pa Burner]

Don't want to hijack the thread but kdenneny did you wire both blowers to the pontentiometer or just one? I've noted with one blower running on low it is not too loud but with both running it is too loud.

 

[kdenneny]

@NW Pa Burner For reference, I used this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Variable-Sp...-blower-kit-/191973883168?hash=item2cb288fd20

Mine has a double wide squirrel cage, but only one blower motor, so it controls the only motor in mine. I guess if both motors combined are under the amp rating for the pot you get it would work both. But that is just my opinion.

 

[Sodbuster]

I installed (in a previous home) a Quadrafire 5100 using a block off plate and a non insulated corrugated SS flex liner. It was installed in a masonry fireplace with a clay tile flue. It burned very nicely and I experienced no issues with draft or otherwise. Chimney was about 26 ft tall as I recall.

 

[Mtn Runner]

It has been a while since I have been on here. The insert installation is complete, but I am going to follow up with several posts with what I have learned from this process over the next couple of days

Purchased a Osburn 2400 including the liner, direct from the Osburn web site. The call center is located in Long Island, NY while the shipping address is in Indiana. When I called, everyone was quite helpful and pleasant. I dealt with Jack and even called to trouble shoot a couple issues that were quickly resolved and were easy to fix. Jack was pleasant an knowledgeable, always a plus, plus.

The liner and other parts, shipped separate and arrived UPS, and was sitting on my step a couple of days after placing the order. A couple more days later, I received a call from the freight company, and a delivery date was set. I requested that they call before delivery and they did, so I was able to step away from work and accept the stove, right on time. The stove arrived on a pallet and was well wrapped and externally appeared to be good condition. The driver pulled the stove into my garage with the pallet jack and placed it where requested. The order and delivery went smoothly, no concerns or complaints from me.

Getting the appropriate local paperwork was a bit more of a challenge, since Washoe County Air quality is involved. Both the individual that I spoke to several times on the phone who is responsible for wood stoves and the front counter gal, left a lot to be desired for customer service. In the end I found out the stove I had purchased does meet current air quality standards, but if I sell after 2020, I will have to remove the stove before the sale due to changes on this date from EPA. Something that would have been nice to know before the purchase, thanks!

Off to get the building permit, which was a far better experience, with pleasant and helpful staff and was even provided a phone number to call if I had any questions (my request) related to building codes.

More to come....

 

[Ashful]

Getting the appropriate local paperwork was a bit more of a challenge, since Washoe County Air quality is involved. Both the individual that I spoke to several times on the phone who is responsible for wood stoves and the front counter gal, left a lot to be desired for customer service. In the end I found out the stove I had purchased does meet current air quality standards, but if I sell after 2020, I will have to remove the stove before the sale due to changes on this date from EPA. Something that would have been nice to know before the purchase, thanks!

Off to get the building permit, which was a far better experience, with pleasant and helpful staff and was even provided a phone number to call if I had any questions (my request) related to building codes.

More to come....

Glad you got the stove, but wow... had no idea Nevada had become a Communist state. They won't grandfather your existing installation in 2020?

Here, I call my BK dealer, say "send me two stoves", install them, and notify my insurance company of the new stove model. Done. When I sell the house, any item that predates a code change is grandfathered. It can't be contested, as long as it met the code at date of installation.

Do they also make you tear out old windows that don't meet the new emergency egress requirement? That would ruin half the houses, in older parts of the country.

Land of the free, eh?

 

[bholler]

Glad you got the stove, but wow... had no idea Nevada had become a Communist state. They won't grandfather your existing installation in 2020?

Here, I call my BK dealer, say "send me two stoves", install them, and notify my insurance company of the new stove model. Done. When I sell the house, any item that predates a code change is grandfathered. It can't be contested, as long as it met the code at date of installation.

Do they also make you tear out old windows that don't meet the new emergency egress requirement? That would ruin half the houses, in older parts of the country.

Land of the free, eh?

No not everything needs brought up to code. You just cant sell stoves that dont meet cirrent standards or homes with them installed. It has been that way in some areas for quite a while.