Insert in a Prefab fireplace - help needed on options

[DSK]

Last year I had a Napoleon wood stove insert installed. I built out the hearth following all the install instructions. My installer insured me it was OK to put the insert into a Majestic pre-fab fireplace. I had done some research and expressed concern, but he said that the prefab was built to handle direct fires and now the fire is contained, so there is no problem.

I've read all the threads and now know that this should not have been done. So I am at a crossroads with how to fix it.

Given my investment in the Insert, decorative surround and the stonework I did on the interior, I would very much like to re-use the insert and not destroy the stone.

Is it possible to pull out the insert, remove the fireplace from the outside....and then replace the fireplace/chimney with something that is safe to install the insert into? Is there anything made for this scenario? I've seen the cement firebox kits that can be assembled. Am I at a point where I need to rip off everything on the outside and rebuild a mason chimney?

I've done a lot of work on my past three houses and laid a little bit of block. Is this something I should consider taking on myself?

I know that is a lot of questions, but I am looking to develop options quickly.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[mellow]

Some napoleons are zc rated, which one do you have?

 

[webby3650]

The insert might be OK in the pre-fab, what is it? Does it have SS liner connected to it?

If you want to rip it out and start over, a masonry fireplace/chimney isn't the answer. Either put in a freestanding woodstove, or a high efficiency fireplace.
Can you post a picture of your set-up?

 

[begreen]

I don't follow the concern that this is not a proper installation either. Both the 1101 and 1402 inserts are factory fireplace approved.

from the manual:
The following installation requirements must be observed when installing solid fuel burning inserts into factory built fireplaces.
A. The factory built fireplace must be listed per UL 127 or ULC S610.
B. Clearances to any combustible material surrounding this insert as identified must be followed. These
clearance requirements supersede any pre-existing facing material clearances listed for the factory
built fireplace.
C. Installation must include a full height listed chimney liner meeting HT requirements (2100°F) as required
in UL 1777 (U.S.) or ULC S635 (Canada). The liner must be securely attached to the insert flue
collar and the chimney top.
D. Means must be provided to prevent room air passage to the chimney cavity of the fireplace. This may
be accomplished by sealing the damper area around the chimney liner, or sealing the appliance front.
E. The air flow within and around the appliance shall not be altered by the installation of the insert (i.e.
no louvres or cooling air inlet or outlet ports are blocked), unless specifically tested as such for each
factory built fi replace manufacturer and model line. NOTE: Using a louvered face plate (surround)
complies with this requirement.
F. Alteration of the appliance in any manner is not permitted with the following exceptions;
a. External trim pieces which do not affect the operation of the appliance may be removed providing
they can be stored on or within the fireplace for reassembly if the insert is removed.
b. The chimney damper may be removed to install the chimney liner.
G. Circulating air chambers (i.e. in a steel fireplace liner or metal heat circulator) shall not be blocked.
H. Means must be provided for removal of the insert to clean the chimney flue.
I. Inserts that project in front of the fireplace must be supplied with appropriate support means.
J. A permanent metal warning label must be attached to the back of the fireplace stating that the fireplace
must be restored to its original condition for safe use without the insert.

---

 

[DSK]

Sorry for the delay. I have a 1402. I read all the same info from the manual and that is why I was OK with the install.

The prefab is a Majestic, circa 1980. It does have a 6" stainless liner connected to it.

I guess I am down to 2 concerns at this point.
1.) During the install, the installer cut into a small portion of the inner firebox in the prefab to get the clearance to hook up the stainless liner.
2.) We installed the decorative trim around the outside of the insert. During the install, louvered trims were removed from the prefab fireplace. They appeared to be more decorative than functional, but I didn't know much when I was looking at it.

Is there anything else I can do to increase the safety of this install. The chimney sweep I had here spooked me - he said he wouldn't even touch it since he would then be involved in the chain of custody should something happen.

Thanks for all the insight so far.

 

[DSK]

6" liner is connected to the insert that is,

 

[webby3650]

Well, the louvers are more than just for looks. They allow air to circulate around the firebox. They help keep firebox cool, they aren't supposed to be covered. You also aren't allowed to remove any part of the fireplace except, screens, doors, and the smoke guard, etc.. What did the installer remove?

 

[DSK]

He removed a louvered panel on each side of the prefab firebox.

 

[webby3650]

Did he leave the firebrick in place?

 

[DSK]

My house was built ~1980 with a Majestic firebox, model ESF - IIA. It has listings for ICBO (RR1581) BOCA(RR75-39) and SBCC(7313)

 

[DSK]

There was no firebrick in this model

 

[webby3650]

It didn't have pre-cast refractory panels in it?

 

[DSK]

None that I saw. There was a metal plate in the back set off from the back of the box. It wasn't brick, but could that be it?

 

[DSK]

I'm attaching the front page from the user manual I found for the Majestic. You can see the louvered parts on either side of the firebox. The firebox had a heat exchanger in the back of it. That was left in place.

 

[begreen]

What was it specifically that concerned the sweep? The side louvers don't seem to be a major issue. Was it the section cut out of the inner firebox? I'm wondering how the sweep even noticed this?

BTW, nice job on the hearth extension.

 

[DSK]

The sweep seems to have a nearly 100% aversion to inserts in a prefab fireplace. He said unless the specific combination was tested, it shouldn't be done. Also said that the weight of the insert would lead to the firebox buckling at some point. Additionally he said I had some staining on the stainless liner at the top near the cap indicating that I had a chimney fire, the pipe was no longer stainless and would rust. My initial reaction was that he was doing "business development", but he spent 45 minutes here, didn't take a dime and didn't ask for any business. I think he may just be ultra conservative.

Thanks for the compliment on the hearth extension. I spec'ed it out and built it so that the K-factors were all to the install instructions (a lot of 1/2 inch cement board). I really tried to do this thing right, that is why it is frustrating to be told I am putting my family in danger.

 

[mellow]

I give it up to an honest sweep, you don't find many like that anymore. All his comments are dead on except the part about the stainless no longer being stainless due to a chimney fire? Never heard that one before. Depends on the liner but some are rated for multiple 2000 degree chimney fires.

So the installer didn't cut out any if the firebox in the back?

 

[DSK]

I am almost certain that there were no cuts or removal in the back of the box. I did not watch the entire install, but we had multiple conversations about depth and there being just enough to accommodate the insert. Also, I never saw the heat exchanger on the trash pile, so I am pretty certain it is still back there.

As I remember, he made a cut on the inside of the front lip of the firebox to bend the metal up a bit to make room to get the insert in ( I believe the collar for connecting to the flue was not clearing). The installer commented that because it was the "inner" box and the fire will now be contained in a stove (vs. open fire), that it was more than fine.

The comment about the weight didn't calculate for me. I'd say 1/3 of the stove sits on the extended hearth, the next 1/3+ sits over the floor joists resting on the block wall foundation. So there would be some additional weight in the back of the box, but the primary load would rest over the foundation/interior floor joists under the hearth.

I actually believe both of these guys are doing what they honestly feel is correct/safe......just have very different opinions.

 

[webby3650]

Additionally he said I had some staining on the stainless liner at the top near the cap indicating that I had a chimney fire, the pipe was no longer stainless and would rust.

Wow! That's a first. Chimney fires don't cause staining. What he saw was the SS was discolored. It all turns blue, purple and bronze after it gets's hot. It's normal. He either doesn't have experience with liners, or he's using a scare tactic to get you to pay him to re-do all of it. The fact that he didn't solicit any work, makes me think he is unsure about your situation and likely inexperienced.

Lots of sweeps will lead you to believe that you can't have an insert in a pre-fab no matter what. It's simply not true. It comes from there lack of exposure to this type of set-up. As long as the installer didn't remove any vital parts of the fireplace, and insulated that liner, then you are fine.

 

[DSK]

Thanks for all the advice/knowledge. This guy has been a sweep for 30 years. He is a bit of a character. Who knows - I don't think he was trying to scare me, but either way he was successful. From our conversation I believe he is 100% against an insert in a prefab, as he condemned it before really even looking at the set up.

The more I recollect/inspect - the only modifications made to the pre fab by the installer were remover of the louver panels, removal of the front threshold so the insert could sit flush and and a couple small cuts in the roof of the inner box so he could bend it back to get the insert to slide in.

A couple more questions:
I am not sure whether the SS liner was insulated. As I recall, he said he was dropping it inside the triple wall chimney that came with the prefab, so it would be fine - but don't remember specifically about insulation. Would I be able to tell if I pulled the chimney cap?

Would it be worth cutting an access panel into my chase and putting a thermometer on a couple spots on the outside of the prefab box to make sure it doesn't get to hot with a stoked fire going? I am thinking that would tell me how hot it is getting on the outside of the fireplace and give me a chance to more full inspect the condition of the fireplace (it looked sound from the front before I put on the lath/scratch coat for the stone).

Thanks again webby3650, begreen and mellow!

 

[mellow]

I thought the liner had to be insulated to meet code. You could remove your top cap and look down with a flashlight to see if the liner is insulated.

As for cutting an access panel, it would be a good thing to do for peace of mind, I would put a thermocouple on the top then move it to the sides to check temps, you "might" be able to do this with an IR gun depending on how much room you have and how much heat your arms can take.

 

[Chimney Crickett Sweep]

If you read the install instructions for the Napoleon insert, you will see that it says that it must be installed it into an HT type chimney flue. A prefab chimney is not that type of flue and can not be upgraded to to a HT type flue even by inserting a wrapped liner into it. If a structure fire occurs, the insurance company will look at this install as not correct and go back to the installer and make him/her pay for the damage or maybe not pay the claim. The Prefab fireplace's flue is listed to UL127and tested to 1700 F. The stove's flue needs a flue listed to 103 HT and tested to 2100F. They are not compatible. To install the stove, the chimney flue needs to be changed out for the correct flue. Call the stove's seller and ask specifically if it can legally be installed into a prefab. Copperfield chimney supply's tech line said it could not be done!

 

[webby3650]

Dura-vent has a re-line system made just for pre-fab fireplaces. It's UL listed, tested and approved. (broken link removed to https://www.duravent.com/docs/product/Relining%20Factory%20Built_Sales%20Sheet.pdf)
While I would not personally want an insert crammed into a Pre-Fab, I don't think it necessarily unsafe if done correctly. I see no issues with a hearth stove install and a full insulated liner. Stove and liner manufacturers put tons of money into testing! Money that a fireplace manufacturer isn't willing or able to spend. If the stove manufacturer and the liner manufacturer have tested and approved it for your particular application, I can't see any issues arising from it. I live and breath this stuff and I've never heard of any issues from the many thousands of pre-fab fireplaces out there that are using an insert or a hearth stove. I have on the other hand been around several partially burned houses from an overfilled open prefab fireplace.

 

[Chimney Crickett Sweep]

Copperfield also has a system for doing this. I eventually pinned the Copperfield Tech guy down to : was it "Up to Code" to insert the Napoleon into a Majestic prefab fireplace with a fully wrapped liner inside. He said yes and no. I said if insurance is involved: is it "Up to code?" He said NO! I have seen issues with these type of installations. The Stove installer never truly knows how the prefab was installed. Thanks for all input!

 

[Bornlate]

I'm attaching the front page from the user manual I found for the Majestic. You can see the louvered parts on either side of the firebox. The firebox had a heat exchanger in the back of it. That was left in place.

Hi DSK,

I know this is an old post, but I just bought a place that has a Majestic Prefab ESF II, and it has plastic taped on the inside. I haven't gone in to look yet, but would sure like a manual. I noticed you posted the first page of a manual. can you tell me where you found it, or would you be willing to send me a copy?

also, i'm curious why you wanted the insert. did you ever try the fireplace itself?