Installation advice for wood insert

[donmac]

Having posted previously, I appreciate all input. About to go ahead and have a Pacific Energy Summit insert installed in fireplace with a direct connect 6" Ultrapro 304 SS insulated liner which will reline an existing 8 1/4" ID round clay flue tile lining a 22' tall chimney. Sweep/installer (35 yrs exp) does not see need for block off plate and is concerned about possible future access to inspect old throat and damper areas being changed.
I think I understand the theory behind a block off plate but see his points as well. Given such a tight fit in existing flue tile, help me understand reasons pro and con not to move forward with his plan and omit block off plate as well as stove choice I have made. PS- this site is great!

 

[velvetfoot]

Can't one use something like Roxul, which could be removed?

 

[begreen]

An insulated liner in an 8" round flue is going to be a tight fit. I would probable just stuff some extra insulation around the liner where it leaves the smoke chamber and enters the chimney.

PS: I this an interior or exterior chimney?

 

[donmac]

This is an interior chimney. Extra insulation/roxul as suggested seem to be a simple answer. Thanks

 

[begreen]

For an interior chimney this will suffice. I would just have them use extra kaowool insulation from the liner blanket.

 

[Hogwildz]

New liner all the way to the top. Block off plate-YES.
With liner to the top, no reason to remove block off plate, no reason to worry about anything other than sweeping the liner. No reason to worry about inspecting the old throat or damper area.
You better make sure the installer is exactly running a full liner and not a hack job of just lining to first existing flue tile, then yes, the insert will have to be pulled every year for cleaning.
Put the full liner in, insulated if possible, and block off plate. Be done with it.

 

[velvetfoot]

The yes, the insert will have to be pulled every year for cleaning.

Why is that?

 

[donmac]

I appreciate all feedback. Given the particulars in original post, full 6" liner w/insulation in 8 1/4" round flue, I'm thinking insulation around new liner. Confirmed with stove supplier that baffle is removable and they sweep from inside stove. I guess I'm not seeing what the block off plate will add to the equation?

 

[webby3650]

I don't feel that a block-off plate would be of any use in this particular install. The flue is blocked at the top and bottom, interior chimney, I'd skip it for sure. Why make extra work for no benefit?

 

[Hogwildz]

Why is that?

If it ain't lined to the top, every time it is swept, the some crud will fall into the stubbed liner and other crud falls around it onto the old smoke shelf and around the outside of the stub, which can't be cleaned up, unless the insert is pulled.

 

[velvetfoot]

I was under the impression that it was lined to the top.

 

[Hogwildz]

I appreciate all feedback. Given the particulars in original post, full 6" liner w/insulation in 8 1/4" round flue, I'm thinking insulation around new liner. Confirmed with stove supplier that baffle is removable and they sweep from inside stove. I guess I'm not seeing what the block off plate will add to the equation?

Again, your original post stated "direct connect".... which is not a full liner install, but a short section of liner stubbed up to the first flue tile. This is why he doesn't want to install a block off plate, because every time it is swept, the insert will have to be pulled out to clean all the crap that falls around the liner stub. A block off will be needed for a direct connect, as it is a safety factor.
I suggest you do some more research before pulling the trigger on the install. And again, you should clarify with the installer, that he is stubbing it in, rather than a full liner to top.
I don't understand how anyone thinks it will be okay without a block off either way. For a direct connect, it is needed for both safety, & cleanliness. For a full line, it helps keep heat in the house, rather than up around the liner and bleed out the masonry to the wild blue yonder.

My apologies if I am misreading, but when I see direct connect, I read it as it is described in the manual, which is a stub, not a full line. This you should clarify with the installer. If you think it is getting a full liner to top, I think your going to be disappointed when you find a short stub of liner.

 

[Hogwildz]

I was under the impression that it was lined to the top.

He stated direct connect, which per even the manual, it is a stub in.
He needs to clarify with the installer. If it is full liner, and that tight at bottom, then yeah just pack it with Roxul. IF, its a full lined.
He is saying direct connect in the original post, then saying full lined.
The only reason I can think the installer would say he is "concerned about possible future access to inspect old throat and damper areas being changed", is because he is direct connect installing a stub, and knows the stove will have to be pulled for periodic inspections and clean up of crud after sweeping.
Like I said, I may be reading wrong, but these words lead me to think he is assuming a full install, but may be getting a direct connect, which are different.

donmac, here is the page form the Summit manual showing a direct connect install. Double check and clarify with your installer, know exactly what you're getting.
Better to know exactly now, then after install, and being frustrated later.

PS. Just because someone does something for 35 years, does not necessarily mean they have done it correctly during that time. See more of this in this topic than you would think.

 

[begreen]

Hogwildz is correct. I didn't catch the direct connect and was assuming a full liner. Good catch.

 

[bholler]

Yeah it a direct connect is actually being suggested then i would find a new installer. It may still be to code and allowed by the manufacturer but it is not the best practice and does not work nearly as well

 

[Hogwildz]

Yeah it a direct connect is actually being suggested then i would find a new installer. It may still be to code and allowed by the manufacturer but it is not the best practice and does not work nearly as well

Especially if the installer wants to direct connect without a block off. Not a good thing at all.

 

[bholler]

Especially if the installer wants to direct connect without a block off. Not a good thing at all.

Yes agreed totally

 

[webby3650]

Later the OP did in fact confirm it is a full liner. I often hear people call a full liner a "direct connect" mistakenly. It's connected directly to the top I guess, the same way a pre-fab is called an insert by most people.

 

[begreen]

Best to confirm that the homeowner and installer are talking the same language. I would verify the details and ask for them in writing to avoid further confusion.

 

[donmac]

I obviously used the wrong terminology. The installer ordered a 25' kit to provide a full reline (one piece of corrugated pipe) for a 22' chimney from top (chimney cap) to the exhaust collar on the insert using a 15 degree bottom elbow for connecting. The total liner length will be insulated with 1" insulation. His quote says full reline not direct connect. I mistakenly called it a direct connect. It is my fault. I do not have the stove yet and do not have the PE install information which clearly tells the difference.

I am embarrassed to display my ignorance but this is not the first time nor will it be the last. Am I going to be banished from this site( in jest)!
Seriously, I am glad you all straightened me out. Given the tight install and interior chimney etc., I am OK with packing extra insulation around liner as it enters smoke chamber (correct terminology?) and not having a block off.

Let me hear your thoughts- I do want to get this right and thanks for your time and patience with an uninformed neophyte.

 

[Grisu]

You will want an airtight seal to keep the hot air from the insert to move up the chimney next to the liner. If the insulation gets stuffed in really tight or (even better) has a foil-backing that closes up the space beside the liner, you should be fine. Nevertheless, be aware that loose installation does not stop airflow. How much of that 22 ft chimney goes through unconditioned space?

Still, I don't quite get why the installer thinks he will need to inspect the damper area when there is a full liner installed. Sounds more like an easy excuse to skip the extra work than a real caveat.

 

[donmac]

Probably about 10 feet maybe less unconditioned. I can certainly discuss the block off with him and demand it if it is really needed.

 

[webby3650]

I obviously used the wrong terminology. The installer ordered a 25' kit to provide a full reline (one piece of corrugated pipe) for a 22' chimney from top (chimney cap) to the exhaust collar on the insert using a 15 degree bottom elbow for connecting. The total liner length will be insulated with 1" insulation. His quote says full reline not direct connect. I mistakenly called it a direct connect. It is my fault. I do not have the stove yet and do not have the PE install information which clearly tells the difference.

I am embarrassed to display my ignorance but this is not the first time nor will it be the last. Am I going to be banished from this site( in jest)!
Seriously, I am glad you all straightened me out. Given the tight install and interior chimney etc., I am OK with packing extra insulation around liner as it enters smoke chamber (correct terminology?) and not having a block off.

Let me hear your thoughts- I do want to get this right and thanks for your time and patience with an uninformed neophyte.

 

[begreen]

Neophytes are welcome here. It's understandable that the terminology is confusing.

I go back to my original advice. The gap between an insulated 6" round pipe and the 8" tile liner is going to be small. Given that this is an interior pipe and the gap is 1/2", I would just stuff it with leftover kaowool from the liner insulation. As long as the liner isn't abused you should have an easy time cleaning the stove. The Summit baffle comes out pretty quickly and then it is a straight shot up to the cap. Just be sure to stuff a rag in the secondary air tube that inserts into the back underside of the baffle. That will prevent crud from falling down in there.

 

[Hogwildz]

I obviously used the wrong terminology. The installer ordered a 25' kit to provide a full reline (one piece of corrugated pipe) for a 22' chimney from top (chimney cap) to the exhaust collar on the insert using a 15 degree bottom elbow for connecting. The total liner length will be insulated with 1" insulation. His quote says full reline not direct connect. I mistakenly called it a direct connect. It is my fault. I do not have the stove yet and do not have the PE install information which clearly tells the difference.

I am embarrassed to display my ignorance but this is not the first time nor will it be the last. Am I going to be banished from this site( in jest)!
Seriously, I am glad you all straightened me out. Given the tight install and interior chimney etc., I am OK with packing extra insulation around liner as it enters smoke chamber (correct terminology?) and not having a block off.

Let me hear your thoughts- I do want to get this right and thanks for your time and patience with an uninformed neophyte.

Your good to go. I didn't intend to sound like I was belittling you or such. Just didn't want you to get a stub install, while expecting a full lined install.
No need for embarrassment, we were all new at one time, and can always learn something new/more.
For that tight a gap you will be fine stuffing it tight with insulation. Just make sure it is fairly air tight, or heat will be lost up and away, that could be going inside the home.
Still confused myself why the installer states he wants to skip the block off plate for inspection of the old throat & damper.
This is what led me to think he was doing a stub install. as was already noted, after a full liner install, there is no need to inspect the throat or damper area, and they are now out of the equation.
Good luck with the install and enjoy come fall.