Insulflex (pre-insulated) liner installed today

[tickbitty]

Edited to add, that I provide this here as my review or impression of this product as it doesn't seem too many have used it yet.

We installed our stove today - won't get it running till maybe tomorrow.

We went with the Magnaflex Insulflex pre-insulated liner kit, which came from a contact here on hearth.com, The Heat Element. The kit included 20' of insulated liner, a collar for the bottom connection to the stove, and a top plate and rain cap. The price was very good and we didn't have to mess with the insulation blanket, adhesive, and mesh sleeve, it was all-in-one and ready for installation.

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...GItODViYy00YmJmLTk2ZGUtMWJiNzVjNGRkN2Uw&hl=en

Although the outer layer is advertised as "flexible aluminum," it's actually very strong, appearing nearly as strong as the inner liner (or at least, it is of the same construction method.) It is NOT aluminum foil or flimsy stuff on the outside by any means.

This was a 6" liner and the outer layer makes the whole thing about 7" around. It hooked up to a 6" collar at the bottom by stripping away the outer layer and insulation and sandwiching the actual stainless liner into the adapter. The cap that was included in this kit actually fits a 7" liner, so in this case the outer liner secures to the inside of the raised cap flue.

Turned out I really only needed a 15' kit (just ordered more to be sure) and I have a very large and fairly straight flue, so perhaps I am not the best example to prove flexibility, but it certainly didn't have much trouble with the short bend forward from my damper to the stove collar. I am not sure how bulky or difficult the "normal" insulated liners would be to install so I have no basis for comparison, however it does seem to me that if one needed an insulated liner in a flue that was smaller in diameter, but taller than mine, and with some bends, this stuff would probably do pretty well with a guide rope at the bottom and being fed in, as it is quite strong. You would, of course, need at the least 7" clearance all the way, for this 6" liner. Meaning it's not so flexible that it could "squeeze" as a whole to smaller in diameter or anything (like I suppose it might if it really WAS just foil type material on the exterior.)

As far as insulation capabilities I also don't know how it would compare to the blanket insulation kits, whether it is as thick etc. But it seems like it certainly ought to do the job. I was only doing insulated to be extra careful anyway as I've an interior chimney. The additional cost for insulated liner versus non-insulated did not seem like that much to me considering the positive things it can do (help the draft, maybe less sweeping or buildup, additional safety peace of mind). I also don't know what the cost for a regular liner with the blanket kit would cost, nor whether there would be any difference in the quality of the interior ss liner.)

The Heat Element was helpful with questions as well. It seems to me that a little more in the way of instructional paperwork might have helped if it were included in the kit so I wouldn't have had the questions at all, but then again perhaps this is just common sense but I am too much a newbie to know it! (I simply mean the part about stripping the outer layer for the bottom connection but not the top, etc.)

Anyway, I just wanted to post this review of my impressions so far of this new product. I think it is pretty neat and I am favorably impressed so far.

 

[Rudyjr]

Thanks for taking the time to review this. If I had known about this product last year I would have given it a try. I think the two offsets in my chimney would destroy the foil face stuff when I pulled it in.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Seems like your stuff sounds too hard to bend by hand, right?

How do I get in touch with TheHeatElement? I Private Messaged with him last year under his old handle Magnaflex, but have yet to hear back from him.

I am hoping that I can shoot an 8" down my chimney. Then I'm hoping to find somehting that I can bend by hand (or small tool) into the shape of 8" oval. Anyone know of somehting strong enough to coneect to a stove adapter, but soft enough to bend with a small tool or by hand?

 

[kscowboy]

I to would like to find out more information on magnaflex can anyone help with that

 

[BrotherBart]

I to would like to find out more information on magnaflex can anyone help with that

Go to their website magnaflex.us

 

[kscowboy]

Does anyone know a good place to buy this product and if there product has the same saftey as the regualr liners with the instuation put on by the consumer

 

[mnowaczyk]

I was planning on pouring vermiculite down the chimney after installing a block-off plate. Is the insulated liner better because it assures the liner will not touch the chimney walls? Is this more important if the existing chimney doesn't have a decent (clay) liner?

 

[mellow]

Is the insulated liner better because it assures the liner will not touch the chimney walls? Is this more important if the existing chimney doesn't have a decent (clay) liner?

Yes and Yes. To correctly meet code you would have to put I think 1" or 2" spacers on your liner to make sure it does not touch the clay liner if you use vermiculite. Insulated blanket liners meet the 0" clearance specs.

 

[mnowaczyk]

Is the insulated liner better because it assures the liner will not touch the chimney walls? Is this more important if the existing chimney doesn't have a decent (clay) liner?

Yes and Yes. To correctly meet code you would have to put I think 1" or 2" spacers on your liner to make sure it does not touch the clay liner if you use vermiculite. Insulated blanket liners meet the 0" clearance specs.

Would it make sense to use vermiculite in addition to the liner insulation? I have no idea how much vermiculite costs (and would not plan on mixing it with concrete, just the stuff poured in there). I would assume the labor part would be so easy. So if the cost is minimal, I'd assume it would be worth doing both.... but maybe there's simply no reason. Thoughts?

 

[mellow]

No reason to use both, matter fact I can't ever recall anyone using both, I guess if you want to be a first you can. Using the insulated blanket meets code.

 

[oconnor]

Is the insulated liner better because it assures the liner will not touch the chimney walls? Is this more important if the existing chimney doesn't have a decent (clay) liner?

Yes and Yes. To correctly meet code you would have to put I think 1" or 2" spacers on your liner to make sure it does not touch the clay liner if you use vermiculite. Insulated blanket liners meet the 0" clearance specs.

Well, kind of, but not quite...

Meeting a 0" clearance spec depends on the liner you are using, and how it was tested. Some liners won't meet the spec, 'cause they weren't tested with insulation. That, and you can't always uses any type of insulation to meet spec with a given liner, again, because how it was tested deems how it can be installed.

If you need (by code or by desire) a 0" clearance liner install, as always, read the instructions for the liner you want to use BEFORE you buy it. If it doesn't include instructions on how to install to zero clearance specs, or you can't get the instructions before hand, then don't buy it.

 

[kscowboy]

I have gone to there website was not much help was wondering if they have the preinsulated in the stainles flexiable liner and how it compaires to the regualr liner. As my chimney has no clay liner.

 

[tickbitty]

The Insulflex liner came with UL testing stickers etc on the packaging. I am not sure but I assume the UL testing applies to the inner stainless liner. I believe that a former thread about this liner indicated that the insulation should indeed meet the same approvals, etc, that blanket/foil insulations applied by the consumer/installer would meet. But I can not attest to that myself not having any particular stats in front of me. I can attest that there IS a continuous layer of insulation between the approved stainless liner and the strong aluminum exterior liner. I would certainly think that it would be at least as effective, but I think the Heat Element or someone from Magnaflex will have to reply to give the definitive answers here.

 

[BrotherBart]

On their website is contact information including email and 800 number info. Ask'em.

 

[oconnor]

The Insulflex liner came with UL testing stickers etc on the packaging. I am not sure but I assume the UL testing applies to the inner stainless liner. I believe that a former thread about this liner indicated that the insulation should indeed meet the same approvals, etc, that blanket/foil insulations applied by the consumer/installer would meet. But I can not attest to that myself not having any particular stats in front of me. I can attest that there IS a continuous layer of insulation between the approved stainless liner and the strong aluminum exterior liner. I would certainly think that it would be at least as effective, but I think the Heat Element or someone from Magnaflex will have to reply to give the definitive answers here.

What did the instructions you used to install the liner say? I assume there were instructions...

 

[tickbitty]

If you want I could email the instruction pdf to someone, (can't figure out how to link it here) but it does not seem to address the outer insulation and is specifically the certification for the stainless liner. It says it is Model LWF stainless chimney liner that "is tested to the stringent UL 1777 and ULC S635 standards." It also says that the stainless liner should have a 1" clearance around it (not be touching the masonry). The instructions do not appear to address the insulation or outer liner layer. That is why I believe that both those and the UL testing really apply only to the stainless liner. If one applies their own insulation, does that kit come with a separate UL testing code and etc? I don't know as this is the only kind I have done.

 

[mnowaczyk]

On their website is contact information including email and 800 number info. Ask'em.

When you call Magnaflex, use option 1 for Ranier (sp?) because he does the internet sales.

Thanks for all the info on the insulated liner Tickbitty!

I'm thinking of solving my problems I posted in https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/50664/ by just ordering the setup that I need (long round with round-to-oval adapter at bottom) and just trying to make the oval more round to get down the chimney before bending it back to oval shape after it's dropped down the chimney. I imagine the insulflex insulation would get in the way at the bottom, so maybe I'll plan on using a combination of vermiculite (for the bottom) and insulflex for the top.

Anyone know if magnaflex is very bendable? Or a product that would be bednable for the oval-to-round conversion?

Sorry to hijack, but I can't get attention on my own post.

 

[tickbitty]

I don't think the insulflex would be bendable enough nor that you would want to reduce it that small to get through your damper. You can indeed get ovalized sections of liner that would fit though. I would think you could get a short length of uninsulated round to oval though and then attach it to the round that goes the rest of the way up, regardless of whether it's insulated or not. The outer layer of insulation and liner were stripped off where the liner connects to the adapter for the stove collar. You could probably connect the two. Or just get a regular liner from whatever company and do the insulation blanket yourself, skipping the part that goes through the damper?

My damper went down to 4" and I wasn't comfortable squeezing the liner that much even if I could. I had the damper cut out. I am told that if the fireplace needs to be used again we can put a new damper in at the top of the chimney for not that much $, so I decided that could be sacrificed. we took a couple bricks out too because the smoke shelf got very narrow in there, but they can be replaced too (and there's no combustibles nearby either, just more masonry behind the insulated liner.)

 

[mnowaczyk]

I don't think the insulflex would be bendable enough nor that you would want to reduce it that small to get through your damper. You can indeed get ovalized sections of liner that would fit though.

My damper is 5" which has been big enough to get 8" oval through it. It is basically a perfect fit... well snug enough that when you shove it through that it will hold itself in place. Most importantly, it's not like I'm doing something with the liner that should not be done.

In case I wasn't clear in what I was trying to do...
I was thinking that if the oval section of the oval-to-round 5 foot section is short enough... I could bend it to be more round (temporarily) while I get it down the chimney. Then when it gets down to the damper, I could bend it back to the standard oval shape and get it through the damper. My stove top adapter will take an 8" oval.

 

[oconnor]

tickbitty

Thanks for sending me the instructions. I want to highlight some points that really worry me about the manufacturer in question and how the LWF liner can be used. As you said, the instructions aren't for the liner you got from them - you seem to have gotten a liner without proper instructions.

That said, there are many posts here about folks getting the LWF liner from Magnaflex and using them with few problems, so to be clear, I am not saying that there is any real problem with the product.

What I am going to say is this - I am really concerned about how testing and instructions are done by this manufacturer in particular. Testing needs to be done to confirm that a product meets safety requirements when used IAW the instructions, and that has been done for the LWF liner.

What they aren't telling you when you order it is that the instructions for using thier liner don't allow you to use it in the situations that you may like. From what I read in the LWF instructions sent to me, this liner CANNOT be insulated, and must have clearances both inside the flue and outside the flue in order for the required specs to be met. Essentially, these instructions indicate the LWF liner can't be installed to meet a zero clearance spec. Here are the extracts that I have typed directly from the PDF I recieved (My comments are in brackets, including likely "Chinglish" corrections to the wording):

Not closer than 1" to interior masonry;

Must ensure exterior air space requirements IAW NFPA 211 (this would be 2 inches around the outside of the chimney for an interior flue);

Installing (insulating?) the liner system is not required, placement of insulation or other materials in the spaces surrounding the liner is not recommended. Acceptance (UL 1777 acceptance?) of the lining system and the warranty are void if the installations (installation instructions?) are not followed (therefore, if you insulate it, you are doing what is not recommended, and the testing and warranty are void).

Warnock Hersey covers the LWF Liner for all fuel applications and Underwriters Laboratories list the LWF liner for oil (So some of the testing didn't meet wood specs, likely the UL 1777 specs were only met for wood - I am confused by the statement overall).

Tickbitty, you made some assertions about how the product you have would meet UL 1777 based on the interior liner being covered - I believe that assertion is incorrect, given the details above about insulation.

What I believe is that the liner system you received is NOT CERTIFIED, and that while it may likely meet the specs were it to be tested, the testing hasn't been done yet. If it were tested, then you would have received documentation with it that stated it clearly. The instructions for the LWF system that you sent me very clearly state how that liner needs to be used to meet UL 1777 specs, and that doesn't allow insulating it to obtain a zero clearance install.

I am certain that my post will yield some questions and comments, and I am more than willing to discuss. If someone has a set of instructions for the preinsulated liner that clearly show UL testing and correct clearances for a zero clearance install, please let me know, and I will correct my assertions above.

I posted the images of the instructions converted to a pic below so folks can see exactly what I read.

 

[tickbitty]

Well, I think I understand what you are getting at, which does seem well reasoned. I am not overly concerned with my own particular application for a couple reasons, I guess mainly because I do not have a zero clearance fireplace or requirements, did not have any code requirements for an insulated liner, and I do have a full masonry interior chimney. I did go with insulated liner partially for safety reasons and I guess in that case it would be an unproved assumption of increased safety. And I went with this stuff because it seemed a bit easier for my installation, which ostensibly I believe it was.

So, I am pleased in general with what I have and what I know of it, but of course I would be MORE comfortable if there were more complete certifications for what I actually have in there - and of course I would not be pleased should the product effectively "void itself" as you mention, though I hope not to have to "go there" and that it will work as expected. Of course if I had requirements that said I had to have a ZC clearance or insulated liner to a certain code I would be concerned to follow the letter of it on that.
I'll leave it to the manufacturer/seller to address anything beyond that, if they choose to do so. I wasn't trying to get in the midst of any controversy though, just to tell you what thought of what I have got. And I am pretty pleased with it with what I can tell from it so far.
Did you speak to any of their representatives as BBart suggested?

 

[oconnor]

tickbitty

When I mentioned zero clearance install, I'm not referring to a ZC Fireplace, but to a liner install into a chimney where the 2inch external clearance to combustibles isn't met, therefore reduced clearances in the chimney are required, often zero clearance, as the timbers of the house are usually right against the chimney in most older interior chimneys. If you know that you have a 2 inch airspace around the outside of your chimney, then you a right, you don't need an insulated chimney liner to meet code. If you are not sure that you have 2 inches of airspace around your chimney, then you need to take measures to safely reduce the clearances to combustibles. Those reduced clearances are met usually by insulating the liner.

Most would never think of not meeting the clearances around an insert or wood stove, so why don't they pay attention when it comes to lining their chimney?

What bothers me is that most folks assume that ANY liner can be insulated and therefore meet code for reduced clearances, when that just isn't true. They also assume that because the sales guy says it is what they need, that he is right, but in fact they don't even get any instructions for the product they bought. In the mean time, they end up with non-code compliant installs because they followed their buddies advice, or a salesman with poor technical knowledge, instead of installing the right product following the right instructions.

 

[tickbitty]

hmm. OK I see. I am not altogether sure about my chimney. This house was built in 1953 by the mason that lived in it, and it is an all masonry house (block with brick.) Naturally there's wood in it elsewhere though (roof etc.) Plaster walls which were not on lathe but rather sort of a chickenwire precursor to drywall.
My flue is over 11" and this outer liner a little over 7. The outer surfaces of the outer liner do not contact masonry except where it come through the narrow damper area at the top of the fireplace. Agreed that I would be happier to know the testing and all was copacetic in any case though.

 

[tickbitty]

hmm. OK I see. I am not altogether sure about my chimney but I believe I am in the clear. This house was built in 1953 by the mason that lived in it, and it is an all masonry house (block with brick.) Naturally there's wood in it elsewhere though (roof etc.) Plaster walls which were not on lathe but rather sort of a chickenwire precursor to drywall.
My flue is over 11" square tile lined inside measurement, and this outer liner a little over 7", so the outer surfaces of the outer liner do not contact masonry except where it come through the narrow damper area at the top of the fireplace. Agreed that I would be happier to know the testing and all was copacetic in any case though.

ETA: I (and my installer) did notice the "do not apply insulation" thing in the instructions but thought that meant stuffing it at the top or bottom and it did not occur to me that could mean the factory installed part of the actual product! However given the way the thing was written, this was not that clear. I did find that the instructions seemed more for legal mumbo jumbo than actual instructional purposes.

ETA: I went back and read the closed thread on this product from a while back. Testing is sorta/kinda it appears at this time. Underway perhaps, and the testing for separate elements and similar product posted. But no, not THIS product at this time, though there was a caveat that said they were OK'd on some level for now while they get it cleared or something. I am hoping that this is cleared up soon. Because I think this is a neat idea and appears to be a great quality product and a good value. But will feel happier when it's beyond the guinea pig point.



ETA: For what it's worth (maybe butkus) found a similar product but NOT flex liner, and by a different maker. But it is inner stainless pipe, ceramic insulation inside an outer aluminum pipe. It's a rigid pipe though. Selkirk. It is for a liner and it is for wood, and it is tested and approved. Isn't it? BUT, they claim it needs a 1" clearance and upgrades a masonry chimney to an HT fireplace system, whatever that means - High Temp?.
http://www.elitedeals.com/cpf-21635.html
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/elitedeals/saf-t.pdf

 

[theheatelement]

I have attached new instructions- I can't remember if they were completed by that time... Also I pasted in our UL certs- Guys- we wouldn't be around for 25 years if we didn't do things the RIGHT way...

Company Name


Category Name


Link to File

MAGNAFLEX INDUSTRIES INC


Air Ducts


ALLU.MH28117

MAGNAFLEX INDUSTRIES INC


Air Ducts - Component


ALLU2.MH28117

MAGNAFLEX INDUSTRIES INC


Air Ducts Certified for Canada


ALLU7.MH28117

MAGNAFLEX INDUSTRIES INC


Liners


DDZR.MH17674

MAGNAFLEX INDUSTRIES INC


Liners Certified for Canada


DDZR7.MH17674

MAGNAFLEX INDUSTRIES INC


Specialty Heating and Heating-Cooling Appliance Accessories


MJAT.MH30144