Insurance Question; Make, Model, UL listing??

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InsuranceMan

New Member
Feb 17, 2017
2
Emmaus, PA
Hello everybody! Anybody have any idea when this stove was built? Trying to determine if it's UL approved. It looks like stoves >1980 were all UL approved. Anyway to tell ?
 

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That is not a Fisher product.
All freestanding fisher stoves have a step top. The glass models had an angled glass across top, the draft caps patented by Fisher are not the style on that stove, and the spring handles are not Fisher parts. Fisher did not make that style stove with a side door. If it has movable grates, it is a coal stove. Can't tell in the picture if that is another air intake on the side door, but it's not for wood if the air comes up under the fire through a grate.

The installation is not an approved heat shield behind it either. There needs to be air vents at the bottom allowing air to circulate up the wall behind the shield. It needs to have 1 inch clearance to wall, which it may have, but without the shield supported on spacers off the floor, it is only a solid brick protector that allows 33% clearance reduction as if the bricks were in contact with wall. If this was a UL Listed stove, without the tag, it is no longer "Listed". The Unlisted requirement section from NFPA 211 would prevail, allowing 33% reduction from 36 inch clearance down to 24 inch minimum. If your company requires a listed appliance, no appliance remains listed without the tag.

It's a shame when it comes to most Fishers since they pioneered the industry and were tested by labs across the country for the area they were in. States didn't accept other testing labs until UL tests were standardized for the entire country. So after 4 years of production the laws finally caught up to the stove industry with testing standards and now we have many pre-UL stoves that can be used by NFPA 211 Standard (the Standard that codes are adopted from) but Insurance companies require that tag, that didn't exist until 1980. Amazing that NFPA has a section for unlisted stoves to install safely, but insurance companies can't make sure they are installed to those standards which make a legal installation. Many jurisdictions that adopt the ICC Family of codes (including PA) now require all appliances to be Listed, but until then it was only insurance companies not allowing the stove. Obviously the older stoves are thicker and many built better than the imported lighter varieties we're seeing now.
Had to get that off my chest, I feel better now.
 
Obviously the older stoves are thicker and many built better than the imported lighter varieties we're seeing now.
What imported varieties are you referring to? Just because something is built with thicker materials does not mean that it is better or safer at all. Just that it weighs more.

And you are correct that irc does require stoves to be listed but honestly I have yet to have an installation of an unlisted stove fail as long as it conforms to nfpa specs for unlisted stoves. Insurance companies are a different story some do require the listing and without that tag they will never approve it.
 
What imported varieties are you referring to? Just because something is built with thicker materials does not mean that it is better or safer at all. Just that it weighs more.

And you are correct that irc does require stoves to be listed but honestly I have yet to have an installation of an unlisted stove fail as long as it conforms to nfpa specs for unlisted stoves. Insurance companies are a different story some do require the listing and without that tag they will never approve it.

I learned a long time ago not to bash another product because you never know what you'll be selling someday ==c.
I can say I dislike "Fireway", "Hotsun", Pioneers (stainless import, not the Amish Pioneer) and "Warmfire". There's something wrong with a large stove weighing 156 pounds!

That's my point, NFPA considers them safe when installed to the unlisted specs, but the insurance companies won't insure them. Not because they aren't safe, it has to be because they don't have someone trained to know when they are installed to those specs. So we trash our stoves because they refuse to insure a proven safe stove. Every fire I've seen has been the fault of installation, improper maintenance or improper operation. The numbers don't add up to blame it on the unlisted stove.
 
That's my point, NFPA considers them safe when installed to the unlisted specs, but the insurance companies won't insure them. Not because they aren't safe, it has to be because they don't have someone trained to know when they are installed to those specs. So we trash our stoves because they refuse to insure a proven safe stove. Every fire I've seen has been the fault of installation, improper maintenance or improper operation. The numbers don't add up to blame it on the unlisted stove.
There are still plenty of insurance companies that will cover unlisted stoves with no issues at all. Yes some unlisted stoves are very good and when installed correctly there is no issue but there have also been some really horrible stoves made as well.


Honestly I have never seen one of any of those stoves listed so Icant comment on them but if they pass the ul testing they cant be all that bad. The question is if they are that bad did they actually pass the testing?
 
That is not a Fisher product.
All freestanding fisher stoves have a step top. The glass models had an angled glass across top, the draft caps patented by Fisher are not the style on that stove, and the spring handles are not Fisher parts. Fisher did not make that style stove with a side door. If it has movable grates, it is a coal stove. Can't tell in the picture if that is another air intake on the side door, but it's not for wood if the air comes up under the fire through a grate.

The installation is not an approved heat shield behind it either. There needs to be air vents at the bottom allowing air to circulate up the wall behind the shield. It needs to have 1 inch clearance to wall, which it may have, but without the shield supported on spacers off the floor, it is only a solid brick protector that allows 33% clearance reduction as if the bricks were in contact with wall. If this was a UL Listed stove, without the tag, it is no longer "Listed". The Unlisted requirement section from NFPA 211 would prevail, allowing 33% reduction from 36 inch clearance down to 24 inch minimum. If your company requires a listed appliance, no appliance remains listed without the tag.

It's a shame when it comes to most Fishers since they pioneered the industry and were tested by labs across the country for the area they were in. States didn't accept other testing labs until UL tests were standardized for the entire country. So after 4 years of production the laws finally caught up to the stove industry with testing standards and now we have many pre-UL stoves that can be used by NFPA 211 Standard (the Standard that codes are adopted from) but Insurance companies require that tag, that didn't exist until 1980. Amazing that NFPA has a section for unlisted stoves to install safely, but insurance companies can't make sure they are installed to those standards which make a legal installation. Many jurisdictions that adopt the ICC Family of codes (including PA) now require all appliances to be Listed, but until then it was only insurance companies not allowing the stove. Obviously the older stoves are thicker and many built better than the imported lighter varieties we're seeing now.
Had to get that off my chest, I feel better now.

WOW THANK YOU! Very informative post & I greatly appreciate the input. It's not what my underwriter's want to hear, but it sheds light on an otherwise commonly misunderstood concept w/ insurance.