Is a 20" box fan killing my draft?

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Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
13,121
Southern IN
You do not have to season cast iron stove parts before installing them.
Sure, instead of curing the new cast iron part in the oven, you can do the same thing with it installed in the stove. After all, you do that with a new cast iron stove, starting with a low burn and letting it cool completely between each between each successively hotter burn. But in the middle of winter when you want the stove burning for steady heat, it's easier and faster to just cure the new parts in the oven.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
102,416
South Puget Sound, WA
Sure, instead of curing the new cast iron part in the oven, you can do the same thing with it installed in the stove. After all, you do that with a new cast iron stove, starting with a low burn and letting it cool completely between each between each successively hotter burn. But in the middle of winter when you want the stove burning for steady heat, it's easier and faster to just cure the new parts in the oven.
That doesn't cure the cement. It's better to break in the stove intact and as one unit.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
32,852
central pa
Sure, instead of curing the new cast iron part in the oven, you can do the same thing with it installed in the stove. After all, you do that with a new cast iron stove, starting with a low burn and letting it cool completely between each between each successively hotter burn. But in the middle of winter when you want the stove burning for steady heat, it's easier and faster to just cure the new parts in the oven.
You don't need to cure cast iron stove parts. I have been doing this a long time and never done it on my stoves or has my customers do it and never had an issue. Now if the parts are cemented that needs cured yes but that's totally different
 

Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
13,121
Southern IN
I agree with seasoning the parts. I collect skillets and such. You just dont want to over fire it. Low and slow, then ramp it p to about 500 in the kitchen oven. 1 1/2 hrs........with skillets you put some kind of grease on it before hand....Crisco, lard, PAM, ect. I have no clue about stove parts tho.
Right. The oil is to give you more of a non-stick surface, and to keep the pan from rusting. Obviously you're not slathering lard on your new cast iron stove parts.. 😏 In that case, it's about acclimating the new cast iron part to the high heats it will eventually have to withstand.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
32,852
central pa
Right. The oil is to give you more of a non-stick surface, and to keep the pan from rusting. Obviously you're not slathering lard on your new cast iron stove parts.. 😏 In that case, it's about acclimating the new cast iron part to the high heats it will eventually have to withstand.
But it doesn't need that at all
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
102,416
South Puget Sound, WA
But it doesn't need that at all
True, they certainly don't do this for cast iron car manifolds.

Cast iron expands as it is heated and contracts as it cools. Then there is the residual moisture in new stove cement. The break-in period on a cast iron stove is to allow the cast iron plates to adjust to each other and settle in in order to reduce thermal stress. If the stove plates are cemented, the break-in period allows the moisture to bleed out and dry rather than pop and crack. Some will see this as condensation forms in the firebox with the first kindling fire. Other, like Hearthstone and Jotul cast iron stove owners, may see some wet black drops form under their stove for the first few burns as this moisture is driven out of the refractory cement.
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
32,852
central pa
True, they certainly don't do this for cast iron car manifolds.

Cast iron expands as it is heated and contracts as it cools. Then there is the residual moisture in new stove cement. The break-in period on a cast iron stove is to allow the cast iron plates to adjust to each other and settle in in order to reduce thermal stress. If the stove plates are cemented, the break-in period allows the moisture to bleed out and dry rather than pop and crack. Some will see this as condensation forms in the firebox with the first kindling fire. Other, like Hearthstone and Jotul cast iron stove owners, may see some wet black drops form under their stove for the first few burns as this moisture is driven out of the refractory cement.
Absolutely like I said if the parts are cemented that absolutely needs cured
 

Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
13,121
Southern IN
Oh, so I guess that if you got a new cast iron stove, you'd just crank it up and not worry about the break-in fires that the manual tells you to do? I thought you were somewhat of a stickler when it came to mfgr. instructions, such as with chimneys, stove installations, etc. I see posts by folks that are breaking those rules, then saying they "never had an issue." And I've seen you respond that their experiences notwithstanding, the instructions should be followed nonetheless. I respect your opinions on those matters, but when it come to the proper break-in of cast iron stoves and stove parts, I put more faith in what the stove makers say. The following cast iron break-in instructions are from the VC and Jotul manuals.
Screenshot 2023-01-20 at 13-02-51 7001135_Dutchwest_2460_26.pdf.pngScreenshot 2023-01-20 at 13-23-27 139946_R17 MANUAL F 500 V3_US_CAN.pdf.pngScreenshot 2023-01-20 at 13-23-51 139946_R17 MANUAL F 500 V3_US_CAN.pdf.png
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
32,852
central pa
Oh, so I guess that if you got a new cast iron stove, you'd just crank it up and not worry about the break-in fires that the manual tells you to do? I thought you were somewhat of a stickler when it came to mfgr. instructions, such as with chimneys, stove installations, etc. I see posts by folks that are breaking those rules, then saying they "never had an issue." And I've seen you respond that their experiences notwithstanding, the instructions should be followed nonetheless. I respect your opinions on those matters, but when it come to the proper break-in of cast iron stoves and stove parts, I put more faith in what the stove makers say. The following cast iron break-in instructions are from the VC and Jotul manuals.
View attachment 308109View attachment 308110View attachment 308111
That isn't what I said at all. A new cast iron stove absolutely needs broken in to cure the cement and drive out any moisture. The same needs to be done with steel or stone stoves as well. I was just saying that the cast iron itself doesn't need cured or seasoned and pre curing in an oven wouldn't be beneficial at all.
 

Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
13,121
Southern IN
True, they certainly don't do this for cast iron car manifolds.
It's possible that the cast iron in car manifolds is an alloy that isn't subject to cracking like the cast iron parts in a wood stove, I don't know..
I was just saying that the cast iron itself doesn't need cured or seasoned and pre curing in an oven wouldn't be beneficial at all.
Apparently you didn't have time to read the excepts from the VC and Jotul manuals. They are definitely not talking about curing the cement. OK, I'll condense them down so it'll only take you half a minute to read them. 😏 But like one of my nephew's construction bosses once said, "You can't teach 'em if they don't wanna learn." 😆
Screenshot 2023-01-20 at 13-56-37 139946_R17 MANUAL F 500 V3_US_CAN.pdf.pngScreenshot 2023-01-20 at 13-57-18 7001135_Dutchwest_2460_26.pdf.png
Here's another snippet from elsewhere..
Screenshot 2023-01-20 at 14-03-04 How To Break-In Your New Stove or Fireplace - We Love Fire.png
 

Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
13,121
Southern IN
This is beginning to tire me. For a break, I'm going out now to cut and heft into the quad trailer some 8' Sassafras logs to use as stack bases. 😆
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
32,852
central pa
It's possible that the cast iron in car manifolds is an alloy that isn't subject to cracking like the cast iron parts in a wood stove, I don't know..

Apparently you didn't have time to read the excepts from the VC and Jotul manuals. They are definitely not talking about curing the cement. OK, I'll condense them down so it'll only take you half a minute to read them. 😏 But like one of my nephew's construction bosses once said, "You can't teach 'em if they don't wanna learn." 😆
View attachment 308112View attachment 308113
Here's another snippet from elsewhere..
View attachment 308114
What do you think is different about those first couple fires? How does the break in change the cast iron?

It doesn't the break in is for the cement and to drive out moisture.

Btw jotul also says don't burn pine either so🤷‍♂️
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
102,416
South Puget Sound, WA
Even gasketed cast iron stoves need a break-in to allow the pieces to settle in relation to each other.
This is beginning to tire me. For a break, I'm going out now to cut and heft into the quad trailer some 8' Sassafras logs to use as stack bases. 😆
Someone is not listening.
 
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Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
13,121
Southern IN
What do you think is different about those first couple fires? How does the break in change the cast iron?
It doesn't the break in is for the cement and to drive out moisture.
I don't know how the break-in changes the cast iron, I'm didn't go to school for a degree in chemistry or major in metallurgy. How do you claim to know that break-in doesn't change cast iron? Do you have a chemistry/metallurgy degree, or are you just guessing at what may or may not be happening in the process?
If, as you claim, break-in doesn't change the cast iron, then why do the OEM cast iron parts I've ordered come with instructions for the purchaser on how to do the break-in, heating the part to higher temps in several steps and completely cooling the part between successive heatings? There is no cement involved, just the cast iron part. It obviously has something to do with conditioning the part.
Sorry, but it seem obvious to me that it would be wiser to believe the OEM stove/parts makers than to believe you in the matter.
 

Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
13,121
Southern IN
it's a Condar cat probe, same one the 2460 uses.
I would get someone to get up on the roof with a 3 or 4' section of some cheap venting pipe, snap-together connector pipe from a farm store for example, 6 or 8" diameter, and just temporarily stuff it into the stainless that comes out the top of the chimney, as a test. I'm betting your stove will immediately run better. That is a round stainless section coming out of the masonry, correct? Then, if that helps, find a contractor that can securely affix a length of stainless rigid chimney liner to what you have up there. And like I said, change the 90* elbow you have inside to two 45s, or any angles adding up to 90*. That way, you eliminate the long horizontal section, which is one of the things killing your draft. This stove will run well and predictably with the proper draft, I'm fairly sure. BTW, here's what's on Condar's website as far as measuring for probe length. I pulled mine and it's 1-7/8". It has a 2" diameter dial face. I saw online an OEM catalytic thermometer listed at 2-1/4" probe length, and a Condar on the same site listed at 2" length. I have a bent-paperclip marker on mine that tells me the peak cat temp during each burn.
https://www.condar.com/Catalytic_Thermometers.html
https://www.hechlers.com/?s=catalytic+thermometer&search_id=product&post_type=product
Screenshot 2023-01-21 at 00-23-21 Condar catalytic thermometers.png
PXL_20230119_205845138.jpg
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
32,852
central pa
I don't know how the break-in changes the cast iron, I'm didn't go to school for a degree in chemistry or major in metallurgy. How do you claim to know that break-in doesn't change cast iron? Do you have a chemistry/metallurgy degree, or are you just guessing at what may or may not be happening in the process?
If, as you claim, break-in doesn't change the cast iron, then why do the OEM cast iron parts I've ordered come with instructions for the purchaser on how to do the break-in, heating the part to higher temps in several steps and completely cooling the part between successive heatings? There is no cement involved, just the cast iron part. It obviously has something to do with conditioning the part.
Sorry, but it seem obvious to me that it would be wiser to believe the OEM stove/parts makers than to believe you in the matter.
What parts? I have not seen that on any of the hundreds of parts I have installed
 

Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
13,121
Southern IN
What parts? I have not seen that on any of the hundreds of parts I have installed
Good thing I alerted you, then. 😏 Yeah, I know, I know, you made up your mind earlier and haven't heard a word I've said since.
As you are fond of saying..."glad it's working out for you, good luck." As for me, my ol' Pappy used to say, "Do it right or don't do it at all." ==c
 
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bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
32,852
central pa
Good thing I alerted you, then. 😏 Yeah, I know, I know, you haven't heard a word I've said.
As you are fond of saying..."glad it's worked out for you, good luck." As for me, my ol' Pappy used to say, "Do it right or don't do it at all." ==c
What parts are you referring to? Again I have installed allot of cast parts and never seen that requirement on any of them. Or ever heard of that requirement from anyone else including factory training from manufacturers

What you are proposing would add atleast $100 to the repair bill for a customer so I would need to see documentation for that
 
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Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
13,121
Southern IN
What parts are you referring to? Again I have installed allot of cast parts and never seen that requirement on any of them. Or ever heard of that requirement from anyone else including factory training from manufacturers

What you are proposing would add atleast $100 to the repair bill for a customer so I would need to see documentation for that
Sometime when I'm going through papers, I'll see if those instructions turn up, but I may not have them any longer, I'll see. I'm trying to recall what the parts were that I got for my SIL's Dutchwest 2460. It was a while ago, but it seems like it was a bypass door, and something else.
Get a room boys or at least take it offline.
I can't afford a room..our property taxes have risen steeply, of late. 😆 Besides, rooms are for people that want to get together. bholler and I are far apart on this particular subject.
I attempted to get back to some of the OP's questions, but if I'm challenged I'm going to answer..
 
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monkfarm

New Member
Sep 14, 2022
27
West Central Wisconsin
View attachment 307888
There is a box fan hung at the ceiling just out of frame to the left, denoted by the red box, meant to circulate the warm air from the stove to the rest of the house. It pulls air, denoted by the blue arrows, directly along the horizontal run of the stove pipe.

A fan has been there as long as I can remember, 48 years, through multiple wood stoves. This is the only one that has had a horizontal run of pipe, and only because the door is on the wrong end of the firebox.

I think that fan is killing my draft by pulling too much heat off that section of pipe, especially when the stove is cold, and this may be a large part of the problems I've been having.

After 2-1/2 hours trying to get the fire burning again this afternoon, I had the bright idea to shoot the temp of the horizontal pipe with my IR gun. 120F. When I turned the fan off the temp on the pipe immediately rose, and the higher it got the better the fire burned. Within 15 minutes I had a nice roaring fire, and had to close the air intake down. The pipe was 170F.

I understand the horizontal run doesn't do the draft any good, and sucking the heat off it with the fan can't help.

Do I dare think that I may have solved a 20+ year old mystery?
I converted to 2 45s instead of the 90 degree pipe you have, this seems to help.
Are you expanding to 8" pipe there after the 90, I can't tell. If you are, maybe that is slowing the draft.