Is a catalytic converter stove right for me?

[NBABUCKS1]

Hey there. If this is thread is in the wrong place please move....

I live on an island in Alaska that has a maritime climate. We have only spruce available to burn. I have been researching wood stoves and everything says to go catalytic converter stove because of its high efficiency. I have talked to friends of mine who have one and they say they do not like them. They don't get hot enough, etc. Some have gone on to remote the catalytic converter completely. My best guess is that they do not have properly seasoned firewood.

BUt..given our climate that's where the problem is. Our climate is very wet. I could cover the wood in a wood shed but I would still have problems due to the air being very moist all the time.

My question is:

Am I better off getting a non catalytic converter stove due to how difficult it is to season here? Or can you season in any climate you just need to pay attention to details?

Right now I am looking at the Blaze King Chinook line.

 

[Highbeam]

Wood will season in any climate. I live in wet western washington and the wood dries just fine. Spruce is a lightweight wood and relatively easy to season. Besides, all stoves need seasoned wood to perform their best.

 

[mellow]

I wouldn't go for a cat stove with that much ambient moisture always present, your cat will crumble into pieces if you keep thermal shocking it.

I would be looking at a stove with a stainless steel baffle if you have salt in your air, the PE Super 27 is one stove I know of with that kind of baffle, there are others out there as well.

 

[Jon1270]

With the disclaimer that I don't own and have never operated a cat stove, I don't understand how the "thermal shock" mellow mentions would happen.

According to this FPL document, EMC of wood in Kodiak ranges from 13.9% to 16.1%, averaging at just a hair over 15%. Firewood will get plenty dry in that environment, and burn just like it does anywhere else. It may take a little longer to dry, since your summers are so cool, but that's offset by the fact that the local species are generally fast-drying. It looks like your winters are typically very wet, so I think it would be important to top-cover your stacks.

I think a cat stove would be a great choice in that climate, so long as you have a bit of mechanical / logical aptitude. My impression is that cat stoves require just enough technical understanding and mechanical imagination that a significant fraction of people can't quite grok how they're intended to work, and that's what leads to disillusionment.

 

[Jon1270]

One more thing:

I have been researching wood stoves and everything says to go catalytic converter stove because of its high efficiency.

Cat stoves aren't that much more efficient than non-cat stoves, if each is operated properly. The much bigger difference is that a cat stove can maintain that efficiency even when turned down to a simmer, because the catalyst makes combustion possible at lower temperatures than are necessary without a catalyst. In really cold weather, there's hardly any difference because you're not running any sort of stove at a simmer; you'd have either type turned up to pump out lots of heat. But in merely cool weather (which you seem to have no end of), when you need relatively little heat from your stove, a catalytic model can give you that heat in long, slow burns, whereas a non-cat requires a cycle of frequent small, hot fires.

 

[stovelark]

Hi NBA- I would second most peoples' opinion here, you don't have to go catalytic, but there is no real reason not to, if you want. I will say this- cat stoves tend to be more user involved, and the plain fact is, if they were that superior, then more would be made. I prefer non cats too, and most mfrs use stainless in the sec burn chambers. I would check out Enviro's line, the Kodiak steel stoves offer a superb value to performance comparison. They offer the Boston if you want cast over a steel burn chamber, but its kinda pricey. P/E would not be my first choice, Quadrafire also offers outstanding steel stoves, and cast ones too. Any stove will keep you warm, good dry seasoned wood is the key.

 

[Sprinter]

You are correct that many people get disappointed with their stoves, either cat or noncat, because they are trying to burn improperly seasoned wood. Both designs require wood that is seasoned to about 20% moisture content to work well. In your climate, you should build a wood shed that is open all around to allow good air flow and the spruce should season fine even there. Get a moisture meter, about $20, and check the inside moisture when split open. Go for 20% ideally. But get that wood split and stacked right now if you want to burn it next season.

There are many (many) threads on this forum discussing cat vs non-cat stoves that you should read. I have noticed there are quite a few cat users, mostly Blaze King, from Alaska on this site. I'm not too sure why, but actually, you will get good results from either type if you operate it properly.

 

[lumbering on]

Is there an epic thread or two about the cat non-cat debate someone could point us to? Using the search feature brings up so many.

 

[Highbeam]

Jon1270 is on fire!

I think your description of how "wet" your climate is threw a couple folks off their game. Wetness is a relative term. There is no climate in which wood can not be seasoned into a prefectly acceptable fuel source for any stove.

What is more important about your climate is the long and moderate burning season. I may not get as cold but my burn season is 9 months long. This is unknown territory for most folks on the forum that live east where they actually have four seasons. That long burn season is why you would benefit from a cat stove with long burn times at lower outputs.

The cat stove is slightly harder to run in that you need to take an extra step during light off but once you're cruising, the cat stove can be left alone, yes alone with no adjustments for 30 hours. You need to do a lot more babysistting with a non-cat since their burn times are short and they have no automatic thermostat.

 

[Sprinter]

Is there an epic thread or two about the cat non-cat debate someone could point us to? Using the search feature brings up so many.

It seems like they all end up being "epic" But here's a few.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/heat-output-cat-vs-non-cat.106452/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/cat-vs-non-cat-pros-and-cons.87312/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fire-view-in-a-cat-stove.101708/

There are also hybrids to be considered.

 

[Ashful]

I wouldn't go for a cat stove with that much ambient moisture always present, your cat will crumble into pieces if you keep thermal shocking it.

Bullsh*t. Here are the published numbers [1], right from the Federal Gub'ment:



So, Equilibrium Moisture Content (EMC) of cord wood stored outdoors in Kodiak is 14 - 16%. Most cat stoves require MC < 20% or 23%. What's the problem?

A catalytic stove will outperform a non-catalytic stove in every possible way, excepting looks and price. They can run much slower and lower without producing creosote, yet they can also run just as hot and fast. They can achieve higher efficiencies. They just can't burn trash.

Non-cat's get the job done, but given the choice, there is seldom any valid reason for avoiding a catalytic combustor.

[1] - http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn268.pdf

 

[mellow]

Whatever, I was going by his description of where he lives, I don't have time to go looking up EMC's for locations. If he says it is wet then I am sure he knows his weather where he lives.

Non-cat stoves can tolerate under seasoned wood better than a cat stove, Period.

I have never been to Kodiak, but I live close to salt water, I know what salt in the air can do to things. Salt gets into the wood, what happens when you burn that wood? What would salt do to a catalytic combustor? Destroy it.

 

[Dave A.]

Pretty sure even non-cat stoves warn against wood with high salt content, (e.g. driftwood). It will rust the stove.

 

[mellow]

Some tolerate salt better than others, hence my recommendation for one with a Stainless steel baffle and tubes on a non-cat stove.

 

[fox9988]

If you want a cat stove and Big btu's, the blazeking king will preform. Plus it will simmer a huge load of wood for 40 hrs during shoulder season(fall/spring).
Reasearch shows (Woodstock's?), that a cat stove will burn wet wood more efficiently than a re-burn stove. While I believe this, I would choose a re-burner, if I where too impatient to season my wood. More efficient or not the cat's life will be reduced ($) from burning wet wood. The Super 27 for example would keep on smoking and making creosote (thats how Dad always did it) without a problem, exept lots of flue fires, and maybe some house fires,(we did those too), without a problem.

 

[begreen]

We have a couple hearth.com PE owners that live on islands in AK and only burn driftwood. It's far from ideal, but sometimes you've got to make do with what you have. If you have doug fir to burn, split it, stack it in an open-sided woodshed, and let it dry for a year if possible. It should be fine for burning. Try to keep the flue temp up above 300F until secondary combustion is over and creosote shouldn't be a big issue. Just don't let it smolder. If there is smoke coming out of the chimney 15-20 minutes after starting, it probably needs more air to burn hotter.

 

[Dave A.]

People may be doing it, but should at least be aware of mfr instructions and the warranty implications.

From the PE Summit (Series-B sinb.body) Owners Manual (Installation and Operating
Instructions) page 14:

DO NOT BURN:
-*Salt water wood -Coal/charcoal
-Treated wood -*Garbage/Plastics
-Wet or green wood -Solvents

* These materials contain chlorides which will rapidly destroy
metal surfaces and void warranty.

 

[Jon1270]

Getting back to the OP's situation, I don't think firewood dried in an area where there's a steady ocean breeze is likely to have anywhere near the salt concentration of driftwood.

 

[NBABUCKS1]

I want to thank everyone a ton for this information. I have learned quite a bit. My heart is saying catalytic stove (the idea of a long burn time is really appealing).

Someone has a PE Super 27 for sale for $1500 . Appears to be brand new. I'm not sure what these retail for, but is this a pretty good deal? I know it's non catalytic converter...but it's also here locally. Any stove I get would have to come from Anchorage (I go get and ferry back over here) or barged up from Seattle.

 

[Sprinter]

I want to thank everyone a ton for this information. I have learned quite a bit. My heart is saying catalytic stove (the idea of a long burn time is really appealing).

Someone has a PE Super 27 for sale for $1500 . Appears to be brand new. I'm not sure what these retail for, but is this a pretty good deal? I know it's non catalytic converter...but it's also here locally. Any stove I get would have to come from Anchorage (I go get and ferry back over here) or barged up from Seattle.

I got mine last year for about $1700 in Washington. I imagine they would be a little more up there. Don't forget about getting a warranty with a new one.

If you really think a cat would be best (and can afford it), go with what works best for you. You'll be living with it for a long time.

EDIT: One other thing, if you only have spruce, you probably shouldn't expect to get the kind of burn times with any stove that some folks boast about.

 

[Oldhippie]

Once you go CAT you never go BACK!

Really, I see a lot more discussion around here about how one gets secondaries to light and all that stuff than how to get a cat to operate.

1. Start a fire in the stove.
2. Wait until the stove reaches ignition heat for that stove
3. Throw the bypass damper to force air through the cat.
4. Turn down stove air to regulate.
5. Enjoy warmth

...and they're easy peasy!

 

[lumbering on]

It seems like they all end up being "epic" But here's a few.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/heat-output-cat-vs-non-cat.106452/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/cat-vs-non-cat-pros-and-cons.87312/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fire-view-in-a-cat-stove.101708/

There are also hybrids to be considered.

Thanks, very helpful.

 

[Highbeam]

Once you go CAT you never go BACK!

Really, I see a lot more discussion around here about how one gets secondaries to light and all that stuff than how to get a cat to operate.

1. Start a fire in the stove.
2. Wait until the stove reaches ignition heat for that stove
3. Throw the bypass damper to force air through the cat.
4. Turn down stove air to regulate.
5. Enjoy warmth

...and they're easy peasy!

I'm a cat man but honestly, take away steps two and three, and you have a non-cat. The cat stove has TWICE as many steps and requires reading a thermometer.

 

[Sprinter]

Reading most of these threads, you can get the idea that cats are difficult and fiddly but that noncats are hands off. But even with a non cat like ours, you do have to watch it and you should have a stove top thermometer and a flue thermometer and you still have to control the air. If you aren't careful, you can have problems like overfiring, backpuffing, creosote buildup, etc.

 

[Highbeam]

Reading most of these threads, you can get the idea that cats are difficult and fiddly but that noncats are hands off. But even with a non cat like ours, you do have to watch it and you should have a stove top thermometer and a flue thermometer and you still have to control the air. If you aren't careful, you can have problems like overfiring, backpuffing, creosote buildup, etc.

You might think you have to do all those things with a non-cat but you can be a whole lot less diligent and at the end of the burn the glass will be fairly clean and the wood consumed. So long as you use dry wood I don't think it is possible to snuff the fire and the EPA's tricky measures assure that it will burn cleanly. Get er going good and slam the draft closed, walk away.