Is lack of on the road charging stations really the biggest obstacle?

[EbS-P]

I want hear your thoughts to the pole question. I’ll give mine now. Charging stations while important are less important that at home charging. How many vacation (overnight trips more than 200 miles away from home) miles are driving annually vs commuting miles (200 miles or less a day round trip to from home and back). I will look this up. My point. We should incentivize home chargers too. And make all charging cheap. I still don’t know what Teslas charging rates are. I’ve googled it. Didn’t find much. I think we will find vehicle prices (which will be dominated by battery prices) as the biggest obstacle for the next 2-3 years.

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[bholler]

I think 90%+ of the time road charging stations don't matter. But I still think the lack of them. Is still a big factor in people not being willing to take the leap to electric

 

[peakbagger]

I see a lot of empty Tesla stations in my area. There is also a fundamental issue that unless the utility has special rates for charging during potentially peak periods is that the power to run the charge stations can be pricey due to peak pricing rates. IMO, electric charging should be done off peak but on road charging rarely is off peak. I find few folks who are on their own time enamored about hanging around a charging station, they seem to be far less upset when they are doing it on company time and treat it as coffee break. On site charging at workplaces is problematical as the potential charge load is significant. power demand for the employer and all potentially on peak loads.

 

[bholler]

I see a lot of empty Tesla stations in my area. There is also a fundamental issue that unless the utility has special rates for charging during potentially peak periods is that the power to run the charge stations can be pricey due to peak pricing rates. IMO, electric charging should be done off peak but on road charging rarely is off peak. I find few folks who are on their own time enamored about hanging around a charging station, they seem to be far less upset when they are doing it on company time and treat it as coffee break. On site charging at workplaces is problematical as the potential charge load is significant. power demand for the employer and all potentially on peak loads.

You also see lots of empty gas pumps as well.

 

[SpaceBus]

EV charging doesn't make sense at a gas station, but it makes a lot more sense at a restaurant, grocery store, box store, or anywhere people will be spending more than fifteen minutes. Many people go to these places before and after work and/or on their own time. Employers offering it as a benefit could see an increased adoption rate as well, and potentially alleviate the need for at home charging.

 

[Bobbob]

I think the two biggest obstacles facing electric vehicles are the expense for the average American to purchase an electric vehicle and our failing electric grid. More preople can only afford used vehicles or less expensive new vehicles. And in some areas we already are seeing electric rationing especially during excessively warm periods. Even if 30% of Americans owned electric vehicles our system we would be overwhelmed...something the government has ignored so far

 

[begreen]

Agreed. I think cost and battery range are the two largest factors. Lack of choice might be another. When there are affordable trucks and SUVs with ~400 mi. range, then I think the market will pick up. Many people charge at home so on the road charging might fall in fourth place.

 

[Nealm66]

I have a 1 ton dually diesel and fuel is around $5 a gallon. I’m really hoping when I retire in 6 years they have an electric dually and enough charging stations to get about pulling my 5th wheel.

 

[peakbagger]

And in some areas we already are seeing electric rationing especially during excessively warm periods. Even if 30% of Americans owned electric vehicles our system we would be overwhelmed...something the government has ignored so far

The vast majority of grid "rationing in the US is a policy planning issue rather than lack of generation. Until grid storage, be it pumped hydro, compressed air flow or batteries, is in place the current power generation system has a fundamental problem that the generation has to be there instantaneous to match the demand. Few rate structures incentivize (or penalize) adequately having industries and residential customers shift demand to periods when there is less demand. Bumping up peak period demand indiscriminately by putting in a large number of charging stations without demand management just makes things worse. Employer systems have the same issues, unless the employer is going to install load management on all the employee parking space chargers, they end up having to put in very large electrical system to handle the peak load in the morning when folks come to work.

BTW Toyota has been fighting a fully electric fleet for several years, rather they have been advocating hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen electric vehicles due to the grid electric demand issue. Statistically the vast majority of passenger road vehicles are short haul, deal with that and spend the money on heavy transport over the road vehicles and its far less important to fully electrify passenger vehicles.

 

[EbS-P]

The vast majority of grid "rationing in the US is a policy planning issue rather than lack of generation. Until grid storage, be it pumped hydro, compressed air flow or batteries, is in place the current power generation system has a fundamental problem that the generation has to be there instantaneous to match the demand. Few rate structures incentivize (or penalize) adequately having industries and residential customers shift demand to periods when there is less demand. Bumping up peak period demand indiscriminately by putting in a large number of charging stations without demand management just makes things worse. Employer systems have the same issues, unless the employer is going to install load management on all the employee parking space chargers, they end up having to put in very large electrical system to handle the peak load in the morning when folks come to work.

BTW Toyota has been fighting a fully electric fleet for several years, rather they have been advocating hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen electric vehicles due to the grid electric demand issue. Statistically the vast majority of passenger road vehicles are short haul, deal with that and spend the money on heavy transport over the road vehicles and its far less important to fully electrify passenger vehicles.

Is Toyotas position being heavily influenced by Japanese policy and infrastructure and or is the US in a similar position or is it a business decision?

 

[Nealm66]

Man, in the past few years I’ve read about some amazing new technologies that are going to make internal combustion motors a thing of the past but I never see or hear anything more. I’d sure think with all the push for ev’s that these technologies would be fast tracked but maybe they flopped for some reason or maybe big oil bought them

 

[EbS-P]

I have a 1 ton dually diesel and fuel is around $5 a gallon. I’m really hoping when I retire in 6 years they have an electric dually and enough charging stations to get about pulling my 5th wheel.

I don’t see the economics changing enough in 6 years to make this an option unless you are driving that rig A LOT! even at 10$ a gallon at 10 mpg 10k miles A year. That’s 10,000$. That down even cover the loans payment on a model Y. Second tow behind RV swill have integrated prolusion systems in the future. The other option is a BEV class A. I don’t see prices BEV HD trucks being competitive with ICE trucks unless you are really putting the mileage on say 10K miles a year. Now it’s all depends on fuel prices.

 

[EbS-P]

I see a lot of empty Tesla stations in my area. There is also a fundamental issue that unless the utility has special rates for charging during potentially peak periods is that the power to run the charge stations can be pricey due to peak pricing rates. IMO, electric charging should be done off peak but on road charging rarely is off peak. I find few folks who are on their own time enamored about hanging around a charging station, they seem to be far less upset when they are doing it on company time and treat it as coffee break. On site charging at workplaces is problematical as the potential charge load is significant. power demand for the employer and all potentially on peak loads.

We live close the Tesl charging station (less than 3 miles). I’ve charged 10 times maybe only once was it over 1/2 full. During the 3 mile drive I see on average 3 Teslas. Now the other side of town. I see many many fewer Teslas. So do more Tesla owners live and work and shop near the Supercharging station or are they their for the chargers?

 

[Nealm66]

Don’t they already have battery powered semi’s already that are more efficient than diesel? If so, I don’t see the problem making a decent 1 ton design but what do I know.

 

[SpaceBus]

I don’t see the economics changing enough in 6 years to make this an option unless you are driving that rig A LOT! even at 10$ a gallon at 10 mpg 10k miles A year. That’s 10,000$. That down even cover the loans payment on a model Y. Second tow behind RV swill have integrated prolusion systems in the future. The other option is a BEV class A. I don’t see prices BEV HD trucks being competitive with ICE trucks unless you are really putting the mileage on say 10K miles a year. Now it’s all depends on fuel prices.

I think 10MPG is pretty high for pulling a fifth wheel, but I do agree, diesel will probably be king for a while.

 

[EbS-P]

I think 10MPG is pretty high for pulling a fifth wheel, but I do agree, diesel will probably be king for a while.

Easy math my grandfather used to pull a 29’ 15th with an 17’ bay liner behind that with a 95 power stroke. I don’t remember what he got I do remember not ever going much above 60 mph.

 

[Nealm66]

I averaged about 10 ( depending on destination) with my 15 ram high output, haven’t pulled with the new one but guessing less with the higher torque/horsepower. Trailer is 40’ and about 15k. So why would they build the electric semi tractors if they’re so less economic? Or was that all bs

 

[lsucet]

I have a 1 ton dually diesel and fuel is around $5 a gallon. I’m really hoping when I retire in 6 years they have an electric dually and enough charging stations to get about pulling my 5th wheel.

I don't think we will be saving any money in 6 years from now. The charging cost will also increase possibly the same rate we are paying now for gas or diesel. The point of going electric is not about saving.
It is how it looks now but I am sure that will change.
After all, these big companies will make their money as always. Maybe you will be paying more on registration fee, road taxes etc cause the weight of the vehicle and the roads. Who knows what the future will bring.

 

[begreen]

Is Toyotas position being heavily influenced by Japanese policy and infrastructure and or is the US in a similar position or is it a business decision?

It's a corporate decision and long-term roadmap set out by Toyota in 1997. They developed and optimized what is probably the most efficient and reliable hybrid system on the market. This started out in the Prius, but then expanded to the rest of Toyota's offering and was licensed by several other auto manufacturers to hybridize their fleets. They have sold some 17 million hybrids, so from a business move, it is successful. Now they are shifting to BEVs starting with the 2023 bZ4X built on the adaptable e-TNGA platform. We'll see what follows.

 

[begreen]

After all, these big companies will make their money as always. Maybe you will be paying more on registration fee, road taxes etc cause the weight of the vehicle and the roads. Who knows what the future will bring.

It's a mix. With increased residential solar, the cost per mile can drop considerably. Registration fees are already boosted in several states due to the loss of gasoline tax revenues. Something has to pay for infrastructure. If the future brings truly autonomous vehicles, then general auto ownership may decline notably, especially in urban areas. Many already pay quite a bit to have the convenience of transportation at our disposal in the form of insurance, licensing and registration, taxes, parking space payments, etc. The next generation, retirees, apartment residents, etc. will be glad to drop that encumbrance.

 

[EbS-P]

I averaged about 10 ( depending on destination) with my 15 ram high output, haven’t pulled with the new one but guessing less with the higher torque/horsepower. Trailer is 40’ and about 15k. So why would they build the electric semi tractors if they’re so less economic? Or was that all bs

I think it will be more economical at some point. That point depends on a lot of factors. The higher up front cost will be offset by fuel/maintenance cost reductions. How many miles do you have to drive to start saving money? I bet it’s a lot. Not something the average RVer would likely do. But an OTR trucker probably would. Heavy Duty vehicle chargers will be a thing. But don’t exist now. Even pull through charging stations are few and far between.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

It is for me. My small fleet of 7 trucks (soon to be 10) will often put 250 miles a day on the clock. Charging locations, and charging time are the main detractors of the technology. At the current time, I don't have any apartment dwelling technicians, but in March I did. They were not in a position to charge at their place, and I really don't want to paythem to drive to some place they could charge. Unfortunately many of them live in rural areas too, adding miles to their drives.

So, in my family, my wife could drive an electric vehicle. I could not. At least not at this time.

 

[EbS-P]

It is for me. My small fleet of 7 trucks (soon to be 10) will often put 250 miles a day on the clock. Charging locations, and charging time are the main detractors of the technology. At the current time, I don't have any apartment dwelling technicians, but in March I did. They were not in a position to charge at their place, and I really don't want to paythem to drive to some place they could charge. Unfortunately many of them live in rural areas too, adding miles to their drives.

So, in my family, my wife could drive an electric vehicle. I could not. At least not at this time.

I really hadn’t considered those who live in apartments. Charging stations at large complexes could be an issue/amenity/profitable add on. 250 miles on a single charge for any commercial oriented truck I don’t see as an issue, but it’s probably on the high side for light/medium duty trucks. Fords Transit EV is only 175 miles of range because I think they are targeting more urban delivery environment.

BEV in rural areas needs special attention. We just as a state started addressing high speed Internet in rural areas. We had college students relying on their phones and McDonald’s WiFi to complete multiple semesters of online courses during the past two years. I see similar lack of affordable infrastructure for electric vehicles in Rural areas. But the good thing is even rural place have electricity so the infrastructure backbone is in place.

Charging Company vehicles brings up a good point. I don’t see companies paying to install at home chargers for employees. Larger businesses likely could sign charging contracts with companies that own the charging networks. 250 miles a day is doable for a truck and possible with a 12 hour 60 A chargers.

Let’s just say you did want a fleet of ten EVs to charge at a single location overnight. We are talking 500 Amps for 12 hours. At this point would it require a substantial electrical service upgrade? I know know anything about commercial electrical systems. One might think power companies would get in on installing chargers like the do lights.

 

[woodgeek]

There are a LOT of apt/condo dwellers and folks without a dedicated parking space in the cities.
There are a LOT of people renting houses with parking but without an EVSE.

That would be well over half of the population in the US I'd bet.

My GF's family ask her about my EV. Like how I charge it, etc. They seem to assume that getting a charging system installed is a huge big deal. She told them I did it DIY and they were surprised.

 

[begreen]

It's a changing world. The fellow I bought our Volt from had a charging spot in his apartment and so does the one my son is moving into.