Isle Royale Smoking... a lot

[northwinds]

There's more info available regarding the stove set-up and the range of problems experienced here:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/isle-royale-difficult-to-control-the-burn.125189/

 

[js156]

From what I've seen on here and also in person, I would look closely at a couple of things.

1. You said it was windy, should still function especially if it was already warm. You want the top of the chimney 10' away from the roof on a horizontal measure, plus 2' for drafting. Specs are easy to look up, double check their install.

2. When was the last time the pipe was cleaned? May be clogged up restricting air flow going up.

3. Most common cause, if you have a screen on the cap it could be clogged up w ash, debris, etc, again restricting air flow.

If I wait too long to reload I'll get a lot of smoke but it all stays where it belongs.

There may be more to it but that's all I can offer up.

Okay, I went up on the roof, after I thought of, and found, a 10' length of downspout (something straight) and discovered that the top of the chimney cap is about 12" below the level downspout. The chimney cap measures about 6" high so really the chimney exhaust is lower. Perhaps 18" lower depending on what counts.
Now, it so happens that the chimney runs in a valley. It is about 22" above (again to the top of the chimney cap) and about 16" from where the smoke exhausts in regards to that roof.
My guess is that the chimney is not less then 3'6" too short and it took until that windy night to present the problem and give me a downdraft.

 

[js156]

sorry about the smoking stove, especially after your expectations of a beautiful new stove were not what you envisioned. to me, it sounds like maybe one of a couple of things. one the gaskets suck and so does the service. second, it sounds like you have a draft problem possibly caused by a clog or an inability to get the pipe hot soon enough so you get smoke spillage caused by a downdraft. you say you have a 90 degree then another 90 degree at the chimney. wonder if a couple of 45's from your stove tot the thimble would help? My summit stove sometimes does not draft well when trying to start it. I often get spillage some until it gets a good burn in it. you've probably already done this, but try putting some small splits (kindling) and get it going quickly and leaving the door open slightly so it gets more air. the videos looked like there was no fire going hardly at all. when I have a rip roaring fire. and I close down all my drafts, I sometimes get some puffing caused by intermittent ignition of the gasses. I have a key damper to slow the roll and sometimes, I have it closed a little bit much and I get some smoke seepage from the intakes or the pipe junction into the stove.

I'd contact my dealer again, after making sure the pipe is not impeded at all and see if you can put your heads together and work something out, especially since they did the install. if there is still an impasse and the issue can't be resolved, I'd let them know you were going to lodge a complaint with the better business bureau and show them courtesy copy of the letter and see if that gets any results. good luck.

Thank you for the post. I have sent the dealer these videos on Wednesday night and they have not gotten back to me at all. I spent just short of 6500 on something that I can't use and they don't respond.
This stove had so much smoke coming out of it all over that my house still smells. The camera is being moved so much because I am trying to capture it, to locate the problems, but there seem to be too many. There is smoke coming out the back of it near the stove pipe and the bottom of it. These can be seen in the videos but a lot of it doesn't show too. At least for me when I tried to video the doors. I guess the dealer could fix the doors, if they ever call, but where is everything else coming from? And at this point who can I trust to diagnose the stove?
Prior to this I was in communication with the dealer about the over firing and I was getting blown off then. Now, they continued to blow me off after the videos I sent on the 12th. A Quadra Fire approved dealer I might add. Can the standards get any lower?

A 175 degree wall...blown off
Over firing....blown off
Back Drafting...blown off
Leaky stove...we will see.

Thank you for your interest.

 

[northwinds]

Js: There are many people here who can help you sort out your issues, but you have to get past your unhappiness about the stove, the dealer, the manufacturer and focus upon the questions people have asked to try to diagnose your problem. If you can't get past that, post more photos: the interior chimney, the exterior chimney. Record and report stovetop temperatures if and when you start a fire again at different stages of the fire. And use the air controls the way they were designed to be used. There are many people who are happy with this stove. Be careful about blaming the stove for what might be a chimney or stove operation issue. I've had smoke come out of my stove also, but it was because I used too big of wood on a warm day, not because there was anything wrong with my stove. My stove has run too hot at times, but it was because I was using too small of wood or failing to close the primary air gradually before the stove became too hot, or loading on too hot of a coalbed. Over time, I learned what worked, and I haven't any problems in several years. Wood stoves are more work than gas furnaces. It's definitely not set and forget.

 

[Hoozie]

Okay, I went up on the roof, after I thought of, and found, a 10' length of downspout (something straight) and discovered that the top of the chimney cap is about 12" below the level downspout. The chimney cap measures about 6" high so really the chimney exhaust is lower. Perhaps 18" lower depending on what counts.
Now, it so happens that the chimney runs in a valley. It is about 22" above (again to the top of the chimney cap) and about 16" from where the smoke exhausts in regards to that roof.
My guess is that the chimney is not less then 3'6" too short and it took until that windy night to present the problem and give me a downdraft.

Got a picture of that? That sounds like it could be your entire problem. I'd probably find a cheap section of 6" pipe to temporarily add to the existing chimney to see if it makes a difference, then do it right with the proper pipe. Or just start with the proper pipe, since it sounds like the chimney height is definitely a problem.

 

[begreen]

Too short a chimney can introduce a puffback. This is especially possible if the wood is less than ideal and the fire dampered down too quickly. Weak draft, and a poor start cause the fire to smolder and the flame goes out. When a flame reappears and unburnt wood gas ignites it creates a small explosion which will force smoke out of every orifice and seam of the stove. If this is what happened, it is operator error, not the stove. The stove is not "leaky". Many of us have had this happen as we were learning to burn in a new stove, it's not an uncommon early burning experience. Fixing the stove pipe will help reduce this possibility, but changing one's fire starting habits will also be required.

 

[ArsenalDon]

As an IR owner, a number of things lead me to think operator error. On reloads, open baffle, open primary air and if it is not taking off I quite often open the startup air too. Once the flue is heated up enough it will draft well, then you can open the baffle.

 

[js156]

Js: There are many people here who can help you sort out your issues, but you have to get past your unhappiness about the stove, the dealer, the manufacturer and focus upon the questions people have asked to try to diagnose your problem. If you can't get past that, post more photos: the interior chimney, the exterior chimney. Record and report stovetop temperatures if and when you start a fire again at different stages of the fire. And use the air controls the way they were designed to be used. There are many people who are happy with this stove. Be careful about blaming the stove for what might be a chimney or stove operation issue. I've had smoke come out of my stove also, but it was because I used too big of wood on a warm day, not because there was anything wrong with my stove. My stove has run too hot at times, but it was because I was using too small of wood or failing to close the primary air gradually before the stove became too hot, or loading on too hot of a coalbed. Over time, I learned what worked, and I haven't any problems in several years. Wood stoves are more work than gas furnaces. It's definitely not set and forget.

NW, I appreciate your response and you are right in that I have to get past my frustration and disappointment with both Quadrafire and the shady dealer.
But I was reminded yesterday when I needed to replace a part for my sons aquarium just how bad Quadrafires customer service is.
This wasn't a back puff. I wouldn't be writing about that. This was a continuous draft of smoke that I could not control or stop. It lasted until the wind died down and will happen again the next time the wind is at that speed and from that direction. Perhaps it can happen from other directions too I don't yet know.
The overfires are a result of the stove getting too much air.
I did not make the stove and I did not install it.

 

[webby3650]

It sounds like all your issues are chimney draft related. Down drafts and excessive draft can all be induced by wind. Now, how bout some pics of your set-up.

 

[begreen]

Can you post a couple pictures of the chimney, the house showing the chimney and surrounding area, and the stove with piping?

I'm wondering if you would benefit from replacing the cap with a vacustack cap.

http://vacustack.com/ICP_pages/products1.html

 

[js156]

It sounds like all your issues are chimney draft related. Down drafts and excessive draft can all be induced by wind. Now, how bout some pics of your set-up.

Some pic's of my set up.
The chimney is very close to being 1 foot 6 inches below level at 10 feet. (As I said) Needing another 3 feet 6 inches to be two feet above level at 10 feet. If you need to do your own math the siding has a 6 1/2" reveal and you can scale it. In the 3rd picture those nails have smashed the heck out of it and the rigid insulation beneath it. I'll have to see if there is something more aesthetically pleasing. But this is my "professional" install.

 

[ksc]

Did they pull a permit and get it inspected?

 

[js156]

Did they pull a permit and get it inspected?

I doubt it. There was nothing on my window. Thanks for asking.

 

[webby3650]

That does look like it needs extended. And I wonder why the t support is so high? I'd also be curious to see what that support is screwed to? It's a challenge to find structure behind vinyl siding that will hold the support firmly enough. We usually need to remove the siding and add blocking between the studs. That thimble is very uncraftsman like. The siding should have been removed, the thimble installed, J-channelled around and the siding put back. I've never seen a "pro" install one over the siding.

 

[ksc]

I think you need to compile a little "packet" with all the pertinent info and send it to your CC company. Your CC company will usually side with you on any dispute.

 

[begreen]

WTH? I wonder why the T support isn't supporting the T?

What direction do your prevailing winds come from and what side of the house is the chimney?

 

[js156]

That does look like it needs extended. And I wonder why the t support is so high? I'd also be curious to see what that support is screwed to? It's a challenge to find structure behind vinyl siding that will hold the support firmly enough. We usually need to remove the siding and add blocking between the studs. That thimble is very uncraftsman like. The siding should have been removed, the thimble installed, J-channelled around and the siding put back. I've never seen a "pro" install one over the siding.

Webby, Can I assume you want to say That looks like it needs (to be) extended.
The make up of the wall from the inside out is, 1/2 drywall, 2x4 studs, 7/16 osb, 1/2 rigid insulation, vinyl siding.
The stove pipe went out in the very middle of two studs.
Their personalities matched their workmanship.
Thank you for your post.

 

[js156]

WTH? I wonder why the T support isn't supporting the T?

What direction do your prevailing winds come from and what side of the house is the chimney?

Hello BeGreen. That side of our house faces North West. In the winter, that is usually the side that the wind blows against. Yeah, snow drifts and all are fed from that direction. Thanks for asking.

 

[northwinds]

Thanks for posting the photos. Not sure what the installers were thinking. Were you presented with other options for chimney placement? I pretty much hate tall exterior chimneys for this stove and the placement on the roof line makes it worse. If they extend it, you're going to have a 30 foot plus chimney, and other people have had some issues with too much draft with too much chimney for this stove, once the draft is established. I can see how you've been getting smoke and reverse draft too. Like you said, you paid for a professional installation. The Isle Royale deserved better.

 

[PapaDave]

In the 4th pic, is it just me or is the piece coming out of the wall on a downward slope?
I'm also curious what's supporting the pipe, since the T-support top side isn't visible.
You need more Class A from the looks of that last pic.

 

[northwinds]

Did they pull a permit and get it inspected?

A permit isn't required in every state. My town clerk looked at me like I was crazy when I asked if a permit was required. On the other hand, my insurance company required an inspection and photos for coverage.

 

[Warm_in_NH]

I'm no pro on chimney chimney installs. But I think it should look more like this. With the support UNDER the T and (mines built out) a nice block on the wall, flashed and J channel so the siding can still float.

I'm sure you don't want to spend more money on this, but it may be time to call a certified sweep/installer and have him give it a once over.

 

[js156]

Thanks for posting the photos. Not sure what the installers were thinking. Were you presented with other options for chimney placement? I pretty much hate tall exterior chimneys for this stove and the placement on the roof line makes it worse. If they extend it, you're going to have a 30 foot plus chimney, and other people have had some issues with too much draft with too much chimney for this stove, once the draft is established. I can see how you've been getting smoke and reverse draft too. Like you said, you paid for a professional installation. The Isle Royale deserved better.

Northwinds, Don't forget me! I deserved better too!
To answer your question, I was not presented with options. My wife and I went to the store picked out the stove and the sales person gave us a quote on the installation without ever seeing the property.
The stove was on back order and when it came in it was installed two days later. The installer made note that additional pipe may be needed but it was for the office to determine. No one ever got back to me so I assumed it was safe to use. From there I had the over fire issues that still exist and then on Wednesday the 12th it was windy here and we got that downdraft.
I have been sending these videos and more to the dealer but they do not get back to me.

 

[js156]

View attachment 129968
I'm no pro on chimney chimney installs. But I think it should look more like this. With the support UNDER the T and (mines built out) a nice block on the wall, flashed and J channel so the siding can still float.

I'm sure you don't want to spend more money on this, but it may be time to call a certified sweep/installer and have him give it a once over.

Yours looks like a better install then mine, that is for sure.
I too think I have to have someone else re install the chimney. I don't want to because of the liability.
Northwinds, I am fairly sure I would need a permit and a state issued contractors license number as to do work in Pa you need one. Plus Contractors Insurance. But you may not need that on your own house. I don't want to play with fire though. But I could not do it worse then them.

 

[webby3650]

View attachment 129968
I'm no pro on chimney chimney installs. But I think it should look more like this. With the support UNDER the T and (mines built out) a nice block on the wall, flashed and J channel so the siding can still float.

I'm sure you don't want to spend more money on this, but it may be time to call a certified sweep/installer and have him give it a once over.

I agree that its better to have the support under the T, but some chimney systems allow the T to be supported from above for a short distance. This set-up is probably OK, assuming that support is attached into more than foam board.