Isle Royale - Difficult to control the burn.

[Jags]

I am posting this for a new user @js156 that is having difficulty in starting a thread...

Hello all. I have had fireplaces before but I am new to wood stoves. I had an Isle Royale installed last week. I am concerned that it is burning too fast and too hot.
I have had it for a week and it will burn 3 logs in 90 to 100 minutes starting on modestly hot coals. My chimney exhausts about 27 feet above the top of the stove after going through two 90 degree elbows on an outside wall.
If I fill the stove, it will burn amazingly hot for two and a half hours, making my 2900 sf house reach 75, and after that time the flames are gone but hot ashes left and then the house cools down. So I am sort of too hot and then too cold in a fairly brief amount of time for a stove that has a 3 cubic foot firebox. Please note that I do have the vents as closed as I can get them and that I keep the doors closed.
In the picture that I am hoping to upload I, again, have the doors completely closed and the vents as closed as I can get them and the flame is still blowing to the sides. I am wondering if I have too much draft and that is responsible for the quick fires.
The drywall behind the unit gets so hot that I cannot keep my hand on it. Today, I express ordered a infrared thermometer to check the walls temp because I am afraid of a fire. I also ordered a stove top thermometer.
Is there anyone who knows how hot is too hot for a drywall wall?
Also, I will happily accept any other insight that anyone may want to share.
Thank you!

 

[Jags]

Picking up where we left off...Good call on getting a thermo. With that we can quantify temps and get a real feel for the actual running numbers.
What is the primary fuel being used. There is a distinct difference in burn characteristics from species to species.

 

[northwinds]

You will find a stovetop thermometer very useful.

It's tough to tell what's going on without knowing your temps. My chimney is very similar to yours in length but with 2 sets of 45's.

The Isle Royale produces a lot of heat for several hours and then tapers off for several more hours with enough coals to easily re-light
after 10-12 hours (with a full load of wood). Even when my stove is running hot (650-700), my drywall behind the stove is never too hot
to touch. Right now, my stove is cruising at 550, and the drywall is warm but not hot to the touch. Some pictures of your stove would be
useful, along with measurements of your rear and side clearances.

I'll repost the pic that you had in the other closed thread. There's some active flame, but it doesn't look that hot. That's kinda what my stove looks like--maybe not quite as big of flames on the side. When you say the vents are closed, are you sure that the start-up air and the primary air are closed? The primary air is closed when the air controls are pushed all the way to the right. The start-up air is closed when it's pulled all the way towards you.

 

[Simonkenton]

Drywall getting too hot to touch is a problem. You are going to, over time, char the studs behind the drywall. How far from the drywall is the stove or pipe?
I would think about installing a heat shield.

 

[js156]

Thank you Jags, Northwinds and Simonkenton for the informative responses.
Simon, I did not know the studs would get charred over time. I guess I have expected it but I didn't think of it at the same time.
Northwinds, I am sure that the knob is pulled all the way out and that the lever is all the way to the right.
Yesterday, I ordered a stove top thermometer, an infrared thermometer and a moisture meter so I can provide this forum with more specific information. They are scheduled to be delivered tomorrow.
Also, I do have the clearances required. I have 15 3/4" to the rear of my double wall stove pipe where I only need to have 13".
When I say the wall gets hot I mean hot. Not a cozy warm. I cannot keep my hand there. At this time, I am a little hesitant knowing that either tomorrow or Sunday I will have a fire like that with a fully loaded firebox and the vents closed so I can use the infrared temperature gauge and report the info here but I have some green logs on hand to tame it if I need to as well as fire extinguishers. But lets be real, I won't be using the fire extinguishers this fast. But I can see the studs suffering, over time, if I am as correct as I think I am. That is the main reason why I am starting this thread the other is the fast burn times. I am severely disenchanted with my stoves high maintenance. If I can get 10 to 12 hours great, but like I said earlier my flames are gone in 2 1/2. As far as I know I am burning hardwoods but I cannot tell you all the varieties that I am burning. I think that I can recognize, ash, cherry, black walnut, and red oak. I can you tell that I am not burning spruce, pine, fir or cedar.
Also, I am curious as to how define burn time are defined. To me burn time is when it can adequately heat my home, not when there is one hot ember under three inches of ash. My manual claims it can heat 1300 to 3400 sf for 14 to 19 hours. Am I correct in this understanding?
Thank you, very much.

 

[Jags]

You ain't gonna heat 3400 sqft for 14 to19 hours with ANY 3.0 cuft stove unless the home is UBER insulated. In a moderately well insulated 2000 sqft house, I would expect an honest 8 hours of heat time from this stove with embers still cooking along. You will not get 8 hrs of 650F stovetop. It just won't hold enough wood to do that.

But back to your issues. First is the temp issues...get your thermos and get some good honest readings. Do you have single wall pipe exiting the stove or do you have double wall? It would be real nice to get a stack reading as well.

As you adjust the primary air (the left/right slide), do you notice a change in the fire? Do you also notice a change in the fire when shutting down the startup (push/pull). These questions are to confirm that the mechanical adjustments are working as advertised.

 

[js156]

Hello, I tried to upload a video but it seems as though that is not allowed so I have provided a link for you to click on. It will show you temperatures that were obtained after about a two hour burn time reloading the firebox after 1 hour as I am burning up wood like toothpicks.
After I stopped the recording I thought that I did not record the floors temperature in front of the flagstone pad. It was 161 degrees.
I also want to say that the stove pipe is double wall and the wood has an 18% moisture content and the knobs were either closed or as closed as the manufacturer allows and moving them would let more air into the firebox. So they are functional and they were closed for the entire burn. When I started the burn I left the door open slightly and then closed it once it took.
Please tell me what you think. This fire was started in a fire box that was previously out. These temperatures were obtained after two hours burn time. I let the fire go out because I didn't want anything any hotter then it already got.
Thank you.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/12845501994/

 

[begreen]

You are running very hot on the stove top. That is overfire temperature. I would consider adding a key damper to the stovepipe to slow down the draft.

 

[northwinds]

Yep, that's way too hot. At what temp did you start to close down the primary air?. At what temp did you have the air completely closed? If you have double wall pipe, the flu temp can't be accurately measured with a surface thermometer. But your stovetop is crazy hot. If your air was closed off completely by 550 and continued to rise to the temp in the video, you either have overdraft or an air leak or a mechanical issue with the air controls. Needs to be addressed Not good. Too hot.

 

[ClintonH]

...Is there a leak on your ash pan door? If that gasket gets ruffled/leaky, it trumps the other air controls and burns HOT and FAST.

 

[ArsenalDon]

Holy Chit...at 830-850 stove top I freak out. I have not overloaded for a while because I could not control the heat either when completely shut down on the air. Not sure the right answer for you, except that I started loading less wood if using hardwood.

 

[Kobeman]

Look underneath toward the back, follow the start up air rod and be sure the lever is all the way forward, I know when I got mine i thought i was getting it closed, then one day i pulled a bit harder on it and it moved another 1/2". I have to run a key damper on 24' of external pipe about 3/4 closed to get my draft down in the .04 range the book calls for. otherwise my flue temps climb.

 

[js156]

I had the pull knob out and the slide to the right during the entire burn. I got the fire going by using fat wood and keeping the right door open a little. This seems to get it going for me. I've only had this about a week. I hope the dealer does me right on this. - They did install it too.
The thing is, I don't know what kind of burn time to expect. I know I can get these infernos but if it is set up correctly, which I guess it isn't, what do I get then?
Thank you.

...Is there a leak on your ash pan door? If that gasket gets ruffled/leaky, it trumps the other air controls and burns HOT and FAST.

ClintonH, The gasket looks okay to me. Thank you for the idea though.

 

[js156]

Holy Chit...at 830-850 stove top I freak out. I have not overloaded for a while because I could not control the heat either when completely shut down on the air. Not sure the right answer for you, except that I started loading less wood if using hardwood.

ArsenalDan, I don't consider filling the firebox with wood overloading. If I fill it half way the fire will go from unlit to flameless in 90 to 100 minutes. This is too far away from the 14 to 19 hours advertised for me to find acceptable.
Also, it sounds to me that your stove is as unsafe as mine. If I have to call the fire company to come to my home to check this thing out I will. Quadrafire, it seems to me, is building and shamelessly selling a stove that is dangerous. My wall was 175 degrees all while being 15 3/4" away with double wall stove pipe. And if I added more wood, instead of letting it go out, how hot would it get then? This is crazy and should be illegal.
Don't walk, run.

 

[northwinds]

I'm sorry that you are having problems controlling your new stove. I can sense your frustration, and you have a right to be frustrated. Your stove is burning too hot and out of control. I don't recommend continuing to run your stove until you figure out what the problem is. Your experience is very different from my own with a somewhat similar chimney set-up.

First of all, almost all manufacturers are notorious for advertising unrealistic burn times with regard to normal wood burning in the home. And, yes, advertised burn times probably mean some live ember buried in three inches of ash after 19 hours. No one claims that their 3.0 cubic foot stove is maintaining 650 degrees for 14-19 hours. Burn times in non-cat stoves are generally determined by the size of the firebox.

Under normal operating conditions, for the Isle Royale, it's realistic to expect the stove to maintain 550-650 degrees for several hours and then to slowly taper off until the next time to reload. I generally reload every 8 hours. I'll reload in 10 hours if it's above freezing outside. I might reload every 6 hours if it's below zero, and I want to keep my house nice and toasty (74). I have heated two 2000+ square foot homes with the same Isle Royale with two different chimney set-ups over the past seven years and have never had a run-away burn. Unless I'm gone overnight, I never use the furnace.

The Isle Royale is designed to be a very low maintenance stove and has been safe and easy-to-operate to operate for me and many others. But you need to get your problem fixed. A key damper may be the solution. You do have a lot of chimney, but I'm thinking there might be some other type of air leak or air control malfunction in play. If it was me, I'd get the dealer involved.

Edit: This may be nothing, but I'm just trying to rule out anything that you're doing different in operating the stove.

"I had the pull knob out and the slide to the right during the entire burn. I got the fire going by using fat wood and keeping the right door open a little. This seems to get it going for me."

Normal operation is to start a fire with the start-up air and primary air open. From what you wrote, it sounds like you have the air controls closed and the door open when you start your fire. If that is the case, you are "getting the fire going" with just the air from the doors and then closing the doors with no adjustment left to make.

This is what I do with a cold stove. Start up air and primary air open. Light the fire. After five or ten minutes, I'll close the start up air. At 550 degrees stovetop (for you, I recommend 450), I close the air to 75% closed. At 600, I close the air to 90-95% closed). It settles out at 600-700.

 

[ArsenalDon]

ArsenalDan, I don't consider filling the firebox with wood overloading. If I fill it half way the fire will go from unlit to flameless in 90 to 100 minutes. This is too far away from the 14 to 19 hours advertised for me to find acceptable.
Also, it sounds to me that your stove is as unsafe as mine. If I have to call the fire company to come to my home to check this thing out I will. Quadrafire, it seems to me, is building and shamelessly selling a stove that is dangerous. My wall was 175 degrees all while being 15 3/4" away with double wall stove pipe. And if I added more wood, instead of letting it go out, how hot would it get then? This is crazy and should be illegal.
Don't walk, run.

Hi, so sorry for your frustration. I consider my Isle Royale safe, been burning 3 years now and it keeps the house toasty.
Now on to burn times, A lot of the issue is the type of wood you are using, with strictly pine and fir over my first 2 years burn times were way down, in the AM no coals at all. Now this year I got a hold of 2.5 cords of mixed hardwood, I have a good amount of coals in the AM with the hardwood, but it does burn a lot hotter. I can pack my stove to the gills with softwood, but not with hardwood or I cannot control the heat well.

I have a long external flue going up to the second story, I think my draft is just too good.
I know that none of this helps your frustration, but maybe there are some clues here for you.

 

[HotCoals]

Hello, I tried to upload a video but it seems as though that is not allowed so I have provided a link for you to click on. It will show you temperatures that were obtained after about a two hour burn time reloading the firebox after 1 hour as I am burning up wood like toothpicks.
After I stopped the recording I thought that I did not record the floors temperature in front of the flagstone pad. It was 161 degrees.
I also want to say that the stove pipe is double wall and the wood has an 18% moisture content and the knobs were either closed or as closed as the manufacturer allows and moving them would let more air into the firebox. So they are functional and they were closed for the entire burn. When I started the burn I left the door open slightly and then closed it once it took.
Please tell me what you think. This fire was started in a fire box that was previously out. These temperatures were obtained after two hours burn time. I let the fire go out because I didn't want anything any hotter then it already got.
Thank you.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/12845501994/

Way to hot a fire to get any real burn times out of it.
Too much air is entering that stove even though it is shut down.
Check all gaskets again and ash pan if it has one.
If all else fails find the secondary intake holes and close them off some with a magnet or foil.

 

[js156]

History repeats itself....
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/reducing-draft-for-my-quadra-fire-isle-royale.75544/
...at the bottom of page two he finds that he had a leak.

 

[js156]

You are running very hot on the stove top. That is overfire temperature. I would consider adding a key damper to the stovepipe to slow down the draft.

BeGreen, Thank you for the idea of a damper. My problem with them is that if I have an overfire and close the damper that fire isn't going to go out before it tries to go the other way and tries to enter my home.

In Chadihman's forum (Reducing draft for my Quadra fire Isle Royale) he had a leak in his. My guess is that I do too. Hopefully with a new stove (if Quadrafire gives me a replacement too) I'll experience the happiness that the others here do....This is getting ridiculous.

 

[begreen]

Why is the damper a concern? I have never seen that happen. Have you?

Do a leak test with a flame, cigarette or incense stick. Move it around slowly by all the seams in the stove. Some leaks are pretty easy to fix with just a little stove cement.

 

[jatoxico]

js156 I don't understand this statement;

My problem with them is that if I have an overfire and close the damper that fire isn't going to go out before it goes the other way and tries to enter my home.

The damper is only meant to be closed partially to slow draft before the stove runs away.

 

[begreen]

And the damper can never be completely closed. that is why there are holes in the middle of it.

 

[js156]

It's better to have the damper before the fire instead of after it.
If I have an overfire, I need to choke it out, (before the fire) not after it! (chimney key damper)
Call your local fire company and find out yourself.

 

[ArsenalDon]

such a confusing thread...I think JS, you have received a lot of misinformation. logical deduction should help figure out your issue, please do not panic, the next call I make I think would be with the folks that sold and installed the stove.

 

[HotCoals]

I think JS, you have received a lot of misinformation.

Now I'm curious to what that may be.
You have the floor!