Just not able to have a wood stove

[mcknn640]

Last December, we had a new Napoleon 1450 installed by a professional in our 1500 square foot rambler with half cathedral ceiling. It is in one of the two end rooms of the house with the cathedral ceiling. Inside pipe 6' and outside 8'. It has been continuous issues with back drafting smoke in the house when opening the stove door. We have tried turning all house fans off and cracked a window. The room has seven windows so it's not air tight.

The installer has tried different baffles in the stove among other things and has now come to the conclusion that the location of where the house sits just is not going to work. The end of the house where the stove is installed is on a decline from neighboring properties and sits in a pocket where the wind gets disturbed and thus creates a problem with the chimney getting proper draft. This was even after temporarily adding an extra 4' of chimney to no avail. Are we just not able to have a wood stove?

 

[begreen]

Welcome. Sorry to hear about your problems. The Napoleon likes a decent draft. We have had someone in the past that had issues with it until the chimney height was improved. I'm wondering if an easier breathing stove like a PE Super 27 would work here. But if 18ft of chimney didn't work, then maybe not.

 

[Osagebndr]

Have you looked into a vacucap( I think that's what it's called) might help. I'm on a decline myself and have no problems .

 

[begreen]

That would be the Vacu-Stack. Good suggestion and worth a try, but I would put the 4 ft extra pipe back on too.
http://www.chimneycaps.com/

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[Osagebndr]

Watched the video , looks pretty neat . Might be a pita to clean tho

 

[begreen]

Nah, just pop it an wire brush it.

 

[Osagebndr]

Certainly worth a try

 

[Grisu]

The Napoleons have been reported to have draft problems especially on short flues. It is probably one of the less ideal stoves in your circumstances. An easier breathing stove like a Pacific Energy Super or one with a bypass (e g. Lopi Endeavor, catalytic stoves) may be helpful.

In addition, what kind of pipe do you have? Double-wall inside, class A outside? Is it a straight shot up or are there any elbows? Could you please describe your operation? Do you open the air fully before a reload, then crack open the door a bit for a few seconds before open it fully? At what stage is the fire at that point? I, for example, rarely open the door when there is still a fire going. Most of the time it is only coals and therefore very little smoke that could potentially end up in our home.

Not so dry wood can also contribute to smoke problems. How long has the wood been split and then stacked in an open spot in your yard? Did you check it with a moisture meter?

 

[mcknn640]

Thanks to you all for your comments and suggestions ... Grisu ... it;s a Super Pro Class Class A Chimney straight up with
no elbows. As far as operation goes, wait till red coals are left before reloading, open draft all the way,wait about a minute,
then crack the door, and smoke comes out. Have waited a bit before opening fully, but still smoke. Admittedly, not fully seasoned wood at first few burnings, but got some well seasoned wood to burn and still the smoke problems.

I've learned that it's very very critical to burn dry seasoned wood especially with these new stoves and was preparing to stockpile
for next year but if the stove doesn't work where it is .. then you understand my dilemna.

I'll look into the Vacu-Stack.

 

[saskwoodburner]

T As far as operation goes, wait till red coals are left before reloading, open draft all the way,wait about a minute,
then crack the door, and smoke comes out. Have waited a bit before opening fully, but still smoke. Admittedly, not fully seasoned wood at first few burnings, but got some well seasoned wood to burn and still the smoke problems.

.

If all that's left is coals, there should be next to no smoke at all. Only time I can have smoke and coals is from wet wood that's looks like black charcoal at the coaling stage, but it's just smoldering.

 

[Grisu]

If all that's left is coals, there should be next to no smoke at all. Only time I can have smoke and coals is from wet wood that's looks like black charcoal at the coaling stage, but it's just smoldering.

Agreed. Hot coals make very little smoke and a hot flue should have no problem handling that. If the wood is subpar it can mean that the flue never got hot enough to establish a strong draft.

To the OP: What are the stovetop temps? An internal flue probe would also be good to see how hot the flue gases are. As a test, you could buy some real dry wood - either kiln-dried (although the typical grocery store pack may not be really dry), lumber scraps, or artificial wood products like Envi-blocks, BioBricks or similar. With those, stove and flue should easily get up to temp which should improve draft.

What species of wood are you burning? Dense hardwoods like oak and locust will hardly dry enough during just one summer.

 

[mcknn640]

Thanks, Grisu... Have been burning mostly oak with some poplar mixed in. Stove top temps in the 400 -500 range.
Have not burn since Saturday when the installer - who we also bought the stove from - came to the conclusion
that nothing is going to work in this location and he suggested taking everything out and giving us some refund
[which is yet to be determined]. He doesn't have any other stove to try and just seems to want to move on from us.

We would like to try some other things before giving up ... primarily another stove.

 

[mepellet]

The Napoleons have been reported to have draft problems especially on short flues.

They have also been reported by many on this forum and another forum to have too much draft on short flues. I for one have an average height flue and had to modify the secondary intake hole to slow the draft down a bit.

 

[Jags]

Stove top temps in the 400 -500 range

I would consider this to be on the lowest end of an "active" burn cycle. It could be part and partial to a draft issue like you are stating, but it could also be an operational issue.

An experiment if you wish:
Get a stove load of known, DRY wood. It could even be the compressed fuel or a combo of cord wood and compressed fuel. Bring the stove top to 550 or even better 600F and tune the primary for a mildly active 600F stovetop. Maintain the 600F stovetop as long as possible (if you cannot obtain 600F this may very well prove a lack of draft, in your case) if you can...continue....as the fuel is consumed and at the point that you cannot maintain 600F allow the stove to naturally decrease in temp down to about 300F (or with the majority of fuel gone and a small coal bed is left). Try to open your door as though a normal reload is going to happen...see what happens. Smoke? No smoke? This will be telling. Report back.

 

[MishMouse]

Does it only backdraft smoke into the house when opening the door?

How well does it burn otherwise?

Why do you have 8" pipe on the outside and 6" pipe on the inside?

Where do you have your air control lever set at when opening the stove?

 

[tomc585]

What about a power draft? Easy install and a simple wiring for most applications for hard wiring or remote controlled. Turn on to create a stronger positive draft to evacuate any smoke.

 

[Oldman47]

Does it only backdraft smoke into the house when opening the door?

How well does it burn otherwise?

Why do you have 8" pipe on the outside and 6" pipe on the inside?

Where do you have your air control lever set at when opening the stove?

It is 6 feet of pipe inside the house and 8 feet outside so a total chimney length of 14 feet. I don't think the OP ever said what diameter pipe he was using.

 

[FTG-05]

And 14 feet sounds awful short.

What does the OP's stove manual say? Is the stove installed per that manual? If not, why not? What was changed and why"

What about a cap? Are there not caps that prevent back-drafting problems? Does the OP have a cap that does that? If not, why not?

More questions than answers, but that's the way I see it. I'm still waiting on the MM results as well. Everytime I hear "oak" and drafting problems, I'm thinking WW syndrome. Maybe that's just me.

 

[Laurent Cyr]

How about getting a pellet stove?

 

[valuman]

Here's a question from an ignorant newbie. Why can't you just add more pipe to the outside section to increase the overall length??

 

[Grisu]

I would consider this to be on the lowest end of an "active" burn cycle. It could be part and partial to a draft issue like you are stating, but it could also be an operational issue.

An experiment if you wish:
Get a stove load of known, DRY wood. It could even be the compressed fuel or a combo of cord wood and compressed fuel. Bring the stove top to 550 or even better 600F and tune the primary for a mildly active 600F stovetop. Maintain the 600F stovetop as long as possible (if you cannot obtain 600F this may very well prove a lack of draft, in your case) if you can...continue....as the fuel is consumed and at the point that you cannot maintain 600F allow the stove to naturally decrease in temp down to about 300F (or with the majority of fuel gone and a small coal bed is left). Try to open your door as though a normal reload is going to happen...see what happens. Smoke? No smoke? This will be telling. Report back.

There is really not anything to add. Try that and see if the smoke issue disappears. While there are easier breathing stoves out there, no one can guarantee you one of them will work in your situation. Btw. What consistency do the coals have when you want to reload? Coals from dry wood at the end of the burn cycle are pretty light, like hardwood charcoal, and often break apart pretty easily. If they are heavy and feel solid they are more likely from unburnt, wet wood.

 

[mcknn640]

Took out the stove the other day ,,,, and the stove pipe and chimney revealed a heavy buildup of creosite.
The stove worked fine for the first two weeks and then we had the problems with drafting and after seeing
the amount of creosite ... I'll have to blame it on the wood.

Have a lot to learn about wood burning

 

[newatthis]

very helpful to learn, it seems to come back to the basics again and again. Have you measured your wood moisture content? How about posting a pic of the pipe?

 

[FTG-05]

The bad news: It's a WW problem.

The good news: It's a WW problem.

Wet Wood can be easily fixed with a little planning and space. Oh and $$$ to buy the extra wood the first couple of years, after that, it's duck soup!

Good luck.

ETA: Fire your installer! He should have been able to determine the problem without having to take everything apart. The WW syndrome should have been first on his list of things to eliminate.

 

[MishMouse]

Try using Eco Bricks or something similar along with your wood.

Massive buildup in around two weeks shows your wood is too wet and that you are not burning hot enough.
When I owned a baffle based stove I had to keep it between 500-600 to keep it from clogging up the chimney.
When I kept it between 400-500 it clogged the chimney in about a month.
Try putting a thermometer on your pipe when burning to ensure that your flue temps are hot enough.

Since we did not have a summer last year, my wood along with most people in my area is not as seasoned as we would like it to be.
Because of this I modified my burning technique to slowly build up to operating temps and to allow the chimney to get a little hotter before I switch it into AB.
With my Harman when I get it up to 500 that is my sweet spot and it keeps that flue clean.
After 1 year of burning with less then good quality wood the sweeps found about a cup of residue in my chimney.