Large Stove Comparison

[VirginiaIron]

In my experience, stove top temp on a BK tells only a small part of the story. It can be 500 or more directly over the cat, with a fairly fresh load at a low setting. The firebox is dark and only the cat is glowing. My IR would show the rest of the stove at 250 or less.....

In this instance, this is a technology I would like to experiment with in order to expell as much of that 500° into the space as one possibly can.

 

[Highbeam]

Not the first time you've recalled something and been unable to reproduce it either.

Here's the first one from bk

http://www.blazeking.com/EN/BTU.html

 

[Highbeam]

And then posted by member isucet on Thursday (just last Thursday) on page 87 of the bk thread post #2175.

Okay @Marshy ? Now what else do you think i was unable to produce? Are you sure you even asked me to find you something? We're all trying to help each other here and I assure you that you don't need to attack. Please don't call me names anymore.

 

[Highbeam]

Got a post number or can you provide or a link to BK? I have never seen a peak output listed by BK and I've looked. This wouldn't be the first time your memory was faulty. Just saying.

Done. Anything else I can do for you?

 

[Highbeam]

That's exactly what I look like, except my helmet is made of tinfoil!

Jk'ing. I don't think anyone isn't getting along Im genuinely very curious about these stoves. I am strongly considering putting one in my shop, but I am concerned somewhat over the high output ability. I get that they can go slow and low for days even and that they are very efficient. I've had my hands on a few now, well built quality stoves for certain.

I'm just not seeing how a 3-7% efficiency edge done in a lab is equaling all the wood savings I hear about. Also assuming if the king only lists high output of 57,000btu(or whatever it is) that if that is the lower efficiency number than what is the efficiency look like if the stove is being pushed harder? Does it drop off more?

So fun fact, the difference between hhv and lhv efficiency is not just the temperature of the stove as you might think. The lhv is false as it does not consider water content of the fuel. What is the hhv efficiency edge for bk to summit?

Yikes, my nc30 hhv efficiency is only 70%! 82% for the king.

 

[Squisher]

the only efficiency number I can find for the summit is the EPA rating of 80.4. I've tried searching for lhv efficiency numbers and I can't find anything on the summit? And really comparing the summit to the king isn't a fair comparison, just one I was interested in to see about output. The summit is only 3.0cft and only holds about 60 pds of wood. Also only a 6" flue. It does claim that 97-99,000btu output(I've seen both numbers listed) capability though. Obviously it's going to burn nowhere near as long as a king just due to capacity, design of not being able to burn as low, and efficiency. I do believe that BK cats are some of the most efficient stoves out there but I do question by how much? And how does that actually play out in the real world of heating as far as wood savings?

 

[lsucet]

the only efficiency number I can find for the summit is the EPA rating of 80.4. I've tried searching for lhv efficiency numbers and I can't find anything on the summit? And really comparing the summit to the king isn't a fair comparison, just one I was interested in to see about output. The summit is only 3.0cft and only holds about 60 pds of wood. Also only a 6" flue. It does claim that 97-99,000btu output(I've seen both numbers listed) capability though. Obviously it's going to burn nowhere near as long as a king just due to capacity, design of not being able to burn as low, and efficiency. I do believe that BK cats are some of the most efficient stoves out there but I do question by how much? And how does that actually play out in the real world of heating as far as wood savings?

You can go to englander website and see the btu ratings of the stove that i have for you see that it will be similar to yours just with the efficiency in the high 70s if i remember correctly. But i am a living experience. It is up to you what you want to believe or not. where all that heat is going? up the flue? I did ask to myself the same questions. you already know the answers

 

[Squisher]

I don't mean to point out the obvious because I don't know your particular scenario but I'm guessing you live at a high elevation as you are way south of me. I get loads of snow for winter and quite cold snaps at times. Not to go in circles but I need output, not low and slow.

Which has already been mentioned many times now how no one stove is the right stove for every scenario. There's endless variables almost.

But I would be curious if anyone had any links or further info on the summits efficiency ratings.

 

[lsucet]

the only efficiency number I can find for the summit is the EPA rating of 80.4. I've tried searching for lhv efficiency numbers and I can't find anything on the summit? And really comparing the summit to the king isn't a fair comparison, just one I was interested in to see about output. The summit is only 3.0cft and only holds about 60 pds of wood. Also only a 6" flue. It does claim that 97-99,000btu output(I've seen both numbers listed) capability though. Obviously it's going to burn nowhere near as long as a king just due to capacity, design of not being able to burn as low, and efficiency. I do believe that BK cats are some of the most efficient stoves out there but I do question by how much? And how does that actually play out in the real world of heating as far as wood savings?

Let me explain it to you with a different terminology. let get an sport muscle car and and a sedan normal car. same side of fuel tank. actually i will give a bigger fuel tank. lets travel for 1000 miles. you have lot of hp and you take off in from of me like nothing. big sound, burning tires, side way etc, cool. you will reach 100 mph faster than me but i also able to get 100 mph. the different is that at 300 mile mark from take off your tank is empty. lol for some reason when i look to the side of the road i saw you pumping gas. plus i am riding on better suspension, better ride, better audio system, more silence environment. when you got back to the road and try to catch with me is about time of fill up again for you. including if you make it first than me to the final destination. AT WHAT COST? numbers don't tell the truth in many occasions.

 

[Highbeam]

the only efficiency number I can find for the summit is the EPA rating of 80.4. I've tried searching for lhv efficiency numbers and I can't find anything on the summit? And really comparing the summit to the king isn't a fair comparison, just one I was interested in to see about output. The summit is only 3.0cft and only holds about 60 pds of wood. Also only a 6" flue. It does claim that 97-99,000btu output(I've seen both numbers listed) capability though. Obviously it's going to burn nowhere near as long as a king just due to capacity, design of not being able to burn as low, and efficiency. I do believe that BK cats are some of the most efficient stoves out there but I do question by how much? And how does that actually play out in the real world of heating as far as wood savings?

It's fine if you want to compare the summit to my princess which makes an hhv of 81% on a 6" flue with 2.85 cf and supposedly just under 90000 btu max. Same thing really.

Lots of brands started measuring lhv efficiency almost 10 years back because that's what the federal tax credit required. Only some calculate the actual efficiency including water for real use, the hhv. More companies each year get on the list with actual tested efficiency numbers.

My shop noncat is only 70% efficient. So a bk princess would save me 11%. If I was burning 5 cords per year then every other year I get a cord for free which sells for 250$ here in the pnw. A new cat is 186$ from the bk recommended seller so the cat cost is covered.

 

[Squisher]

At $250 a cord us I don't think I'd burn. But I see your point. But what if the numbers are closer say than your englander and the cost of wood is negligible?

 

[Highbeam]

At $250 a cord us I don't think I'd burn. But I see your point. But what if the numbers are closer say than your englander and the cost of wood is negligible?

Then it's just your time to process the wood and load the stove more often. The value of long, steady output, burn times is huge to me. I had a noncat and I remember loading at night hoping for enough coals to relight in the morning. I also remember the rollercoaster room temps since my home is reasonably well insulated. For these benefits, I will gladly pay for a new cat every 12000 hours or whatever I get.

 

[VirginiaIron]

Let me explain it to you with a different terminology. let get an sport muscle car and and a sedan normal car. same side of fuel tank. actually i will give a bigger fuel tank. lets travel for 1000 miles. you have lot of hp and you take off in from of me like nothing. big sound, burning tires, side way etc, cool. you will reach 100 mph faster than me but i also able to get 100 mph. the different is that at 300 mile mark from take off your tank is empty. lol for some reason when i look to the side of the road i saw you pumping gas. plus i am riding on better suspension, better ride, better audio system, more silence environment. when you got back to the road and try to catch with me is about time of fill up again for you. including if you make it first than me to the final destination. AT WHAT COST? numbers don't tell the truth in many occasions.

I understand this. It makes wonderful sense and I believe it proves both points. The slower car and the faster car is a good example if they have the same destination and they are carrying the same load or passengers. That destination is the finish line or comfort for the driver/occupants within a reasonable economy and timeframe. If the destination/finish line Is the same, and you only have one occupant or minimal demand as in heating needs, the slow and steady is definitely the answer. But, Using your example, if I drive my 40mpg car but intend to tow my 10kgw trailer empty or loaded, The 40 mile per gallon car will probably not work so I must decide to tow the trailer with a vehicle capable of doing the job. For this example, my 1 ton crewcab diesel dually in order to transport my load to the destination/finish line in the comfort and economy and timeframe that is suitable to me or my needs.
Oh, and in regard to the inconsistency in efficiency standards or ratings, A wise man once told me that liars never figure and figures never lie.

 

[lsucet]

I understand this. It makes wonderful sense and I believe it proves both points. The slower car and the faster car is a good example if they have the same destination and they are carrying the same load or passengers. That destination is the finish line or comfort for the driver/occupants within a reasonable economy and timeframe. If the destination/finish line Is the same, and you only have one occupant or minimal demand as in heating needs, the slow and steady is definitely the answer. But, Using your example, if I drive my 40mpg car but intend to tow my 10kgw trailer empty or loaded, The 40 mile per gallon car will probably not work so I must decide to tow the trailer with a vehicle capable of doing the job. For this example, my 1 ton crewcab diesel dually in order to transport my load to the destination/finish line in the comfort and economy and timeframe that is suitable to me or my needs.
Oh, and in regard to the inconsistency in efficiency standards or ratings, A wise man once told me that liars never figure and figures never lie.

Lot of people can read this and give a different interpretation according to which side they want to take. he mentioned his area is colder than here and he needs many btu. ok i take that. but he is missing the point. how many other in the same area than him are running cat stoves and staying as warm as him. This is not about BK, is about one technology against the other but more than that is more than somebody can think he/she needs when in reality is not like that. you see, the same small car in the same condition performed and take the abuse. with less cost and better economy. we can take it that way with facts. Everything is how you want to see it. a tight house regardless how tight is, has only some amount of heat retention. if the house lose the heat retention in 3 hrs, regardless how hot you burn, ones the stove went into coaling stage is not giving the same x amount of heat than after reload. yes a more steady heat but in the low side. the loss during those 3 hrs will be the same regardless. if you burn to a rate than balance in some way the loss and keep you warm then we talking business now. maybe i can put one time deal BTUs into the house when winter start and i forget about it for the rest of the winter? is the house will stay warm the whole winter cause is tight? If i need those btu constantly it means heat loss is big and i need to reload constantly. Where is the saving and performance them? maybe the solution to all this is not about one brand vs other, one technology vs other, is about to stop the root of the cause of why i need all those btu. ones we fix that any stove or technology will shines.

 

[VirginiaIron]

The problem lies with the fact that we all do not live in the same type of house, constructed of the same materials, the same square footage, and residing in the same geographical area. In addition to that you have different body types- thin, heavy, aged, sick, and young, all of which require a different temperature in the space that they reside. I'm satisfied with our stove, however, I am intrigued by this conversation and will look into the cat combustion technology further. The only issue, for us, would be having a couple cases of those combustors in stock for future needs.

 

[bholler]

Let me explain it to you with a different terminology. let get an sport muscle car and and a sedan normal car. same side of fuel tank. actually i will give a bigger fuel tank. lets travel for 1000 miles. you have lot of hp and you take off in from of me like nothing. big sound, burning tires, side way etc, cool. you will reach 100 mph faster than me but i also able to get 100 mph. the different is that at 300 mile mark from take off your tank is empty. lol for some reason when i look to the side of the road i saw you pumping gas. plus i am riding on better suspension, better ride, better audio system, more silence environment. when you got back to the road and try to catch with me is about time of fill up again for you. including if you make it first than me to the final destination. AT WHAT COST? numbers don't tell the truth in many occasions.

The problem is that blaze kings really are not that much more efficient. Yes they can release the heat over a much longer period of time and if that is what you need that is great. But if that is not what you need why would you pay a premium for a stove that can do it when you wont be using that feature much?

is about to stop the root of the cause of why i need all those btu. ones we fix that any stove or technology will shines.

That is easy for someone living in New Mexico to say but given the exact same house I am going to need allot more btus where i live than you will and squisher will need more than me. But I also choose to live in an old house with its original windows siding ect. Because of that I have much more heat loss than many other people. I know that and I am fine with the fact that it takes more btus to heat my house.

 

[lsucet]

The problem lies with the fact that we all do not live in the same type of house, constructed of the same materials, the same square footage, and residing in the same geographical area. In addition to that you have different body types- thin, heavy, aged, sick, and young, all of which require a different temperature in the space that they reside. I'm satisfied with our stove, however, I am intrigued by this conversation and will look into the cat combustion technology further. The only issue, for us, would be having a couple cases of those combustors in stock for future needs.

Oh yeah i understand all that but the only way we can give an accurate statement is if we try those stoves, technologies, etc, Then we based on reality of what is better for my application or not. but having that experience myself i can tell you that if you can get better position with the down sides of the house and be able to not need those amount of btus, you will be happy with a cat stove. and the long burns. they also burn as hot as tubes. it does not have to be a BK. BK is able to go the extra mile for the design a the tstat.
I have a busy life like anybody else but i like when there spend time with my horses, i have other projects going on, stables , getting setup to go back again into the ham radio operation that i love, taking care two places plus rest. give me some time to myself. I don't want to be an slave to that stove. Because like i said in other post i am better connecting the LP furnace back and that is it. and like i said before too, i have other heating sources in case that i need it. including coming back to town.lol 40 minutes away only. I have a room there that is 18x25 that used to be a formal living room. I don't see the need to heated if is not in use, but cause i like to use the whole house i decide to make it a master bedroom and i thinking to installed the madison tube stove in there. just to drop a few pieces of uglys here and there and take the chill off. That room give trouble heating it cause of the location. the house has a wear floor plan.

We already check with the insurance plus that is what my wife does and they don't care if we install an stove there. they just one pictures that we also install CO/CO2 and smoke detectors and of course the install to be correct by code. Don't get me wrong i am not putting down other stoves and if i am telling you all this is for you see that i think the tube stoves has/still a place in my life. just to certain point. \

I have those two stoves there in the back of the house and they are almost new, both.

 

[lsucet]

The problem is that blaze kings really are not that much more efficient. Yes they can release the heat over a much longer period of time and if that is what you need that is great. But if that is not what you need why would you pay a premium for a stove that can do it when you wont be using that feature much?


That is easy for someone living in New Mexico to say but given the exact same house I am going to need allot more btus where i live than you will and squisher will need more than me. But I also choose to live in an old house with its original windows siding ect. Because of that I have much more heat loss than many other people. I know that and I am fine with the fact that it takes more btus to heat my house.

You guys just want to talk about blaze king.lol i already stated that it is about the technology but lets talk about BK if you insist. BK has a big market in Alaska and Canada and people use them without those downsides that you are talking about. Are you guys are the only one in these world with those demands? How can you know is not going to work for you if you never burn one in your location? At least i have experience and family members crossing the street from me that are coming from old smoke dragon and now they have ashfords. That my weather here is not like yours over there, ok i will give you that. what else? Are you ever try to contact peoples that lived in those areas and in worse weather than you plus have those stoves? you know we can spend the whole life talking about it but at least remember i burn both technology and there are many people here using both at the same time and heating their houses. I learned the differences thru their input here and i am living the experience.

 

[bholler]

You guys just want to talk about blaze king.lol i already stated that it is about the technology but lets talk about BK if you insist.

Ok what other cat stove were you referring to then? What other cat stove has burn times that long? What are the efficiency rating of those other cat stoves? You claim to be talking about the technology but are only referencing the bk numbers.

BK has a big market in Alaska and Canada and people use them without those downsides that you are talking about.

Yes what stove in what size house? I know people use cats stoves and bks in all climates I never said otherwise. And if they work well for them and they are happy with them fine good for them I am not going to tell them they are using the wrong stove. Because it is the right stove for them.

Are you guys are the only one in these world with those demands?

None of es ever said anything even remotely resembling that.

At least i have experience and family members crossing the street from me that are coming from old smoke dragon and now they have ashfords.

You do realize I work on all types of stoves every day. I have burnt many different stoves of all types. No we don't have a ton of bks here but we see enough.

That my weather here is not like yours over there, ok i will give you that. what else? Are you ever try to contact peoples that lived in those areas and in worse weather than you plus have those stoves?

Yes at national conventions I get to talk to sweeps from all over the country and some outside the country amount what they burn what their customers burn ect.

you know we can spend the whole life talking about it but at least remember i burn both technology and there are many people here using both at the same time and heating their houses. I learned the differences thru their input here and i am living the experience.

Yes and I learned the differences by working on the stoves talking to my customers ect. I have not burnt a cat stove in my house yet. If I come across one that would work here at a decent price I will pick it up and see how it works for me. But I am not going out and spending all the money on a king then installing an 8" stack for it just so I can load a little less often. You comparison is not exactly fair either you are comparing an entry level tube stove that was on an over drafting chimney to a top of the line cat stove with the over drafting issue fixed.


I have absolutely nothing against good cat stoves and bk is one of if not the best cat stove out there. But they are not the best fit for every situation why cant you see that?

 

[Squisher]

I'm not missing the point at all and statistically I think very few are running cats in my area and I base this on being a sweep. I see so few that I've had to conclude that there must be greater numbers of them out there but perhaps with cat owners there is a greater chance of learning and looking after it themselves for fear of having a sweep mess their stove up on them?

The point that I'm trying to make is that a tube/baffle type of stove can heat just fine and dandy too and I see no difference really then if I am pushing say my summit hot and steady or if I was pushing a cat stove hot and steady.

It's funny to me but possibly because I used inefficient wood guzzlers for decades that to me the wonderment of efficiency gained by switcjing to my summit still has me giddy going through my second winter with it.

My main reason for questioning the output so much is because I really think something like a king king would be great in my shop to be able to just idle away and keep things above freezing, but I'd want to be certain I could crank out the heat with it and warm things up considerably when I want/need to work in there. That's been my main reason for pushing so hard about output ability and people's experience with it.

Honestly for me if we're talking about 10% or less efficiency difference, that doesn't even come into play for me then. I'm confident through the careful monitoring and conscientious burn practices I use that I'm getting really good end user efficiency out of my stove.

 

[lsucet]

The point that I'm trying to make is that a tube/baffle type of stove can heat just fine and dandy too and I see no difference really then if I am pushing say my summit hot and steady or if I was pushing a cat stove hot and steady.

Well that is the different. How you are going to keep hot and steady when you has no control over secondary burn? tell me how you control them? tell me how you going to extend the burn when you only have control over primary air and not 100%? you just burn the stove when is real cold outside? there is no fall and spring for you? times that you don't need all that heat? What, i have to load just a few pieces every two hrs and become an slave of that stove? better, let me mix my dry wood with the high MC wood or green one to avoid it takes off?

 

[Squisher]

I adjust my load sizes and species for spring and fall heating. Another benefit of my interior masonry chimney is thermal mass, so I can burn a fire and then let it go out for shoulder season heating. Lighting a fire is no big deal to me. So no I'm not a slave to my stove(s), quite the opposite in fact because as Is normal in my area I have a high efficiency natural gas FAF as well, so I can choose if it's warm out to have a fire, or not.

 

[lsucet]

Ok what other cat stove were you referring to then? What other cat stove has burn times that long? What are the efficiency rating of those other cat stoves? You claim to be talking about the technology but are only referencing the bk numbers.


Yes what stove in what size house? I know people use cats stoves and bks in all climates I never said otherwise. And if they work well for them and they are happy with them fine good for them I am not going to tell them they are using the wrong stove. Because it is the right stove for them.


None of es ever said anything even remotely resembling that.


You do realize I work on all types of stoves every day. I have burnt many different stoves of all types. No we don't have a ton of bks here but we see enough.


Yes at national conventions I get to talk to sweeps from all over the country and some outside the country amount what they burn what their customers burn ect.


Yes and I learned the differences by working on the stoves talking to my customers ect. I have not burnt a cat stove in my house yet. If I come across one that would work here at a decent price I will pick it up and see how it works for me. But I am not going out and spending all the money on a king then installing an 8" stack for it just so I can load a little less often. You comparison is not exactly fair either you are comparing an entry level tube stove that was on an over drafting chimney to a top of the line cat stove with the over drafting issue fixed.


I have absolutely nothing against good cat stoves and bk is one of if not the best cat stove out there. But they are not the best fit for every situation why cant you see that?

If you have all this experience you should know the differences of the technologies and why cat stoves burn longer. BK is an exception and we all know that is cause of the tstat control over a wide range. is there no big houses in those places? you said you work with stoves everyday then you should know the differences and which one performed better than other.

 

[bholler]

If you have all this experience you should know the differences of the technologies and why cat stoves burn longer. BK is an exception and we all know that is cause of the tstat control over a wide range. is there no big houses in those places? you said you work with stoves everyday then you should know the differences and which one performed better than other.

Yes I know the differences very well and for some cat stoves are right and for some tube stoves are. Some like down drafts and there are some who are very happy with their old pre epa stoves. I am just pointing out that you are applying your very limited experiences to every one else. And as I said your comarisone is not fair due to the fact that your tube stove was an entry level stove running with to much draft. To use your car analogy that is like saying all imported cars are better because your new BMW is much better than your old geo metro with a stuck throttle.

 

[lsucet]

I adjust my load sizes and species for spring and fall heating. Another benefit of my interior masonry chimney is thermal mass, so I can burn a fire and then let it go out for shoulder season heating. Lighting a fire is no big deal to me. So no I'm not a slave to my stove(s), quite the opposite in fact because as Is normal in my area I have a high efficiency natural gas FAF as well, so I can choose if it's warm out to have a fire, or not.

Well you see. you don't depend to stay warm on just run that stove. then why you sound like you just depend on that stove and that is the best for your application? and talked about climate worse than there than here? sorry i cant get it