Large Stove Comparison

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
19,480
central pa
I installed flue damper, including i installed for a few days a barometric damper to control the draft better. also bought a manometer, get with tech support multiple times. The best control over was the installation of the barometric damper keeping the draft to 0.05WC or what ever was recommended. I should have pictures of the baro damper installed.
Tech support told you to install a barometric damper???? Regardless Iam glad your stove works well for you now.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
19,480
central pa
Im very happy that my King is my first purchase and hopefully my last in my lifetime.
Other than another stove because the king wont keep your house comfortable right? I just have an issue with someone who has never owned run or worked on any other stove telling all of us how much wood they are saving and how much better their stove heats when they have nothing else to compare to.

The other guys here went from tube stoves to bks so they have a basis for comparison. And obviously for them their bks work better. And great I am glad they got stoves that work better for them.
 
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Niko

Minister of Fire
Nov 12, 2013
521
Dutchess county, NY
Other than another stove because the king wont keep your house comfortable right? I just have an issue with someone who has never owned run or worked on any other stove telling all of us how much wood they are saving and how much better their stove heats when they have nothing else to compare to.

The other guys here went from tube stoves to bks so they have a basis for comparison. And obviously for them their bks work better. And great I am glad they got stoves that work better for them.

I said first purchase, our house that we purchased 4 years ago had 2 stoves. Used them for one year and threw them away. The king heats the house plenty i dont like having to turn it up so that i cant stay downstairs, 80 is The highest ill go. When it gets 20 and under i turn the king up to keep the upstairs warmer but my downstairs is in the 90s. So id like to first address my insulation issue and see what that does with real world tests. If i can keep my downstairs in the high 70s very low 80s with a semi air tight house i wont buy a second stove as long as my upstairs stays in the low 70s very high 60(when the temps drope below 20)If after insulation i still have to crank the stove up to keep the upstairs in the temps we want i will add a princess and but both stoves on super low duty burning.

my house is a lil more then 3000 sqaure feet, stove is downstairs in a insulated basement that is half underground and is above.

Again i know a second stove is not needed at all, i dont like being cooked out of my downstairs just so i can keep my upstairs warm. This is the whole i pay taxes and want to use my house thing.

Those of us that have the stoves in rooms or floors that u dont use then if that works for you awesome. But for me i dont think it makes much sense at all to put a stove in a room or floor that you dont use at all to crank it up full blast to get heat in rooms you do use.

id rather put the heat in a liveable area and keep it on low, i can turn it up anytime i want.
 
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lsucet

Minister of Fire
May 14, 2015
1,578
San Ysidro, New Mexico
Tech support told you to install a barometric damper???? Regardless Iam glad your stove works well for you now.
No i never said that they tell me to do it.I did it in my own and it was the best solution to my situation but when i contact them back again and explained to them what i did and the results with data from the manometer, they were able to figure that my problem was too much draft. they did not tell me either to take it off and was not supposed to be use. he just tell me that sometimes you have to do what you have to do and that they see that ones awhile but most of the time are people with taller stack than me.
 

Squisher

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2015
1,623
vernon BC, Canada
I said first purchase, our house that we purchased 4 years ago had 2 stoves. Used them for one year and threw them away. The king heats the house plenty i dont like having to turn it up so that i cant stay downstairs, 80 is The highest ill go. When it gets 20 and under i turn the king up to keep the upstairs warmer but my downstairs is in the 90s. So id like to first address my insulation issue and see what that does with real world tests. If i can keep my downstairs in the high 70s very low 80s with a semi air tight house i wont buy a second stove as long as my upstairs stays in the low 70s very high 60(when the temps drope below 20)If after insulation i still have to crank the stove up to keep the upstairs in the temps we want i will add a princess and but both stoves on super low duty burning.

my house is a lil more then 3000 sqaure feet, stove is downstairs in a insulated basement that is half underground and is above.

Again i know a second stove is not needed at all, i dont like being cooked out of my downstairs just so i can keep my upstairs warm. This is the whole i pay taxes and want to use my house thing.

Those of us that have the stoves in rooms or floors that u dont use then if that works for you awesome. But for me i dont think it makes much sense at all to put a stove in a room or floor that you dont use at all to crank it up full blast to get heat in rooms you do use.

id rather put the heat in a liveable area and keep it on low, i can turn it up anytime i want.
Your heat demand is just low enough it works for you. I heat from a insulated and finished basement and my daughter sleeps in the room right beside the stove and regulates her temp by simply opening or closing her door. We also watch tv in another adjacent room downstairs with no issue. So I successfully heat from the basement while being able to use it still. Every setup/home/locale is different.

And you may have bought one stove that you hope lasts a lifetime, I hope it does for you too. But you guaranteed are buying cats for it a few times if you plan to keep it that long. And btw I wish you and your stove, and your cat a healthy and long life.
 
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Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
16,490
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Before we condemn bk stoves as low output heaters let's all remember that only one new member feels this way. That one member's application is completely at fault. He is trying to heat 3600 sf, way over the rated area, from an uninsulated basement with a freaking roll up door. Even that member is able to keep temps up in the house now that he has fans. We've been told that uninsulated concrete sucks 30% of stove output so the stove is even more overmatched.

We only have one other member that runs loads at max stat setting to keep his home at balmy temperatures for his wife with -40 temperatures outside! He loves his bk.

So I own both a noncat and a cat bk stove. Both melt your eyeballs at full output. It only makes sense since both stoves are metal boxes at 800.

Anybody else with a bk find it inadequate? If so, let's look at your heating demand and see how much of that inadequacy is due to the stove.
 
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Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
16,490
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Your heat demand is just low enough it works for you. I heat from a insulated and finished basement and my daughter sleeps in the room right beside the stove and regulates her temp by simply opening or closing her door. We also watch tv in another adjacent room downstairs with no issue. So I successfully heat from the basement while being able to use it still. Every setup/home/locale is different.

And you may have bought one stove that you hope lasts a lifetime, I hope it does for you too. But you guaranteed are buying cats for it a few times if you plan to keep it that long. And btw I wish you and your stove, and your cat a healthy and long life.
Cats are cheap and save enough wood to easily pay for themselves. The king is extremely efficient compared to any noncat. That efficiency can even pay for the stove over time.

You keep mentioning in this thread and others that nobody looked up the max output of a bk for you. Look back, your answer was provided. I recall it was 97000 for the king.
 
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Squisher

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2015
1,623
vernon BC, Canada
I totally missed where anyone had given a quantifiable response of 97,000. I'll look back. I mean I'm not just picking a number out of the air when I say 99,000btu for the summit. That's what the manufacturer lists.

But I thought I've heard the cost of cats tossed around at about $300us. That would be a easy $500cdn.

I see the king lists 84 or 88% efficiency while the summit lists just one number 80.4%. So we've got a 3.6 or a 7.6 discrepancy here. And while I'd say that number isn't insignificant, so many other factors will affect efficiency that operation, wood, setup are certainly going to play a part and affect those numbers.
 

Squisher

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2015
1,623
vernon BC, Canada
You keep mentioning in this thread and others that nobody looked up the max output of a bk for you. Look back, your answer was provided. I recall it was 97000 for the king.
I did look back and possibly I haven't had enough coffee. Could you quote or link the post where this info was given?
 

VirginiaIron

Minister of Fire
Dec 19, 2013
1,039
Central Virginia
IMG_3751.PNG
Why can't we all just get along? I have too much time on my hands now that we installed our new stove.
 
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lsucet

Minister of Fire
May 14, 2015
1,578
San Ysidro, New Mexico
I see the king lists 84 or 88% efficiency while the summit lists just one number 80.4%. So we've got a 3.6 or a 7.6 discrepancy here. And while I'd say that number isn't insignificant, so many other factors will affect efficiency that operation, wood, setup are certainly going to play a part and affect those numbers.
Remember that the efficiency numbers on non-cat are fixed but EPA agency, when cats are realistic numbers. they go more for emissions on non-cats than anything else.
 

Squisher

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2015
1,623
vernon BC, Canada
That's exactly what I look like, except my helmet is made of tinfoil!

Jk'ing. I don't think anyone isn't getting along Im genuinely very curious about these stoves. I am strongly considering putting one in my shop, but I am concerned somewhat over the high output ability. I get that they can go slow and low for days even and that they are very efficient. I've had my hands on a few now, well built quality stoves for certain.

I'm just not seeing how a 3-7% efficiency edge done in a lab is equaling all the wood savings I hear about. Also assuming if the king only lists high output of 57,000btu(or whatever it is) that if that is the lower efficiency number than what is the efficiency look like if the stove is being pushed harder? Does it drop off more?
 

Squisher

Minister of Fire
Nov 1, 2015
1,623
vernon BC, Canada
Remember that the efficiency numbers on non-cat are fixed but EPA agency, when cats are realistic numbers. they go more for emissions on non-cats than anything else.
What do you mean by this exactly? How can numbers be fixed while testing for efficiency?
 

lsucet

Minister of Fire
May 14, 2015
1,578
San Ysidro, New Mexico
What do you mean by this exactly? How can numbers be fixed while testing for efficiency?
lol. Is like Denzel Washington said. When you don't read, you are uninformed but when you read, you are misinformed. In this case by me.lol.
I actually learn that from this site on how this work so so and that with the new emission and all that everything is going to change and Manufactures have to score real numbers. I just saying, maybe i misunderstood.
 

VirginiaIron

Minister of Fire
Dec 19, 2013
1,039
Central Virginia
... I don't think anyone isn't getting along Im genuinely very curious about these stoves....
[VI]- I know.

.... I'm just not seeing how a 3-7% efficiency edge done in a lab is equaling all the wood savings I hear about. ...
[VI]- Im with you on this. I'm not quite sold on the technology or the added eff. I think 3 to 7% eff and or emissions across the whole industry (environmentally) is beneficial but not to me personally due to the added purchase price and operational costs.

... Also assuming if the king only lists high output of 57,000btu(or whatever it is) that if that is the lower efficiency number than what is the efficiency look like if the stove is being pushed harder? Does it drop off more
[VI]- I would think so. I think these numbers are the absolute best within a controlled environment including the fuel.
 

VirginiaIron

Minister of Fire
Dec 19, 2013
1,039
Central Virginia
What do you mean by this exactly? How can numbers be fixed while testing for efficiency?
I think the EPA recently proved this possible with Volkswagen.

Do the manufacturers submit a "prototype" for testing or an actual unit from the production line?
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
19,480
central pa
No i never said that they tell me to do it.I did it in my own and it was the best solution to my situation but when i contact them back again and explained to them what i did and the results with data from the manometer, they were able to figure that my problem was too much draft. they did not tell me either to take it off and was not supposed to be use. he just tell me that sometimes you have to do what you have to do and that they see that ones awhile but most of the time are people with taller stack than me.
Ok I misunderstood you sorry. I really don't like to see barometric dampers on wood burners they just introduce dilution air into the exhaust which can cause pretty bad creosote issues. I would guess that your strong draft had allot to do with your poor experience with the tube stoves also.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
19,480
central pa
But for me i dont think it makes much sense at all to put a stove in a room or floor that you dont use at all to crank it up full blast to get heat in rooms you do use.
But then you have the situation you are in where if you crank it hot enough to heat the house you cant use that room anyway. There are trade offs either way I prefer my way but that does not make it right for everyone at all.
 
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Marshy

Minister of Fire
Dec 29, 2016
820
NY
Before we condemn bk stoves as low output heaters let's all remember that only one new member feels this way. That one member's application is completely at fault. He is trying to heat 3600 sf, way over the rated area, from an uninsulated basement with a freaking roll up door. Even that member is able to keep temps up in the house now that he has fans. We've been told that uninsulated concrete sucks 30% of stove output so the stove is even more overmatched.

We only have one other member that runs loads at max stat setting to keep his home at balmy temperatures for his wife with -40 temperatures outside! He loves his bk.

So I own both a noncat and a cat bk stove. Both melt your eyeballs at full output. It only makes sense since both stoves are metal boxes at 800.

Anybody else with a bk find it inadequate? If so, let's look at your heating demand and see how much of that inadequacy is due to the stove.
Who has condemned BK stoves as low output? I certainly have not and I know you are directing your comment at me so don't be pompous.

I take offense at your claim because I have not blamed the stove in any way shape or form nor have I said they are low output. Others have commented they excel at low output that that very well may be but that doesn't matter much to the people who bought a stove with a high heat demand and plan to run it hard. I recognize my heating demand is higher than the stove can provide at times but I don't blame the stove. In fact I have gone to great lengths to rule out all other contributors before concluding there is anything wrong with the stove vs it just being too small to meet my demand.

This thread is simple and its not to condemn any one stove manufacture, its to discuss and compare the big stoves on the market and how they operate on high demand. The ability to compare a BK to any other stove on the market is challenging in itself. The way they decide to communicate the stoves performance has advantages and disadvantages. In a perfect world we would all have our stoves hooked up in the most ideal manner and be able to run them half throttle or less, its just not the case for everyone so step off your pedestal.

Without knowing exactly how many btu/hr your heating demand is how does one go about sizing a stove? Square footage is generally a starting place. Obviously I'm over the sqft rating of the king by 600 but show me a stove that is rated for 4000 sqft. There likely isn't one and it makes sense as distribution over a 4000 sqft area becomes a challenge. You might argue a free standing stove is the wrong application but there are other reasons that people choose one over a larger investment like a boiler, each person and situation is different.

The fact of the matter is I could heat my space to the desired temperature with an older non-epa stove prior to the King. There were drawbacks and safety issue though and that's the primary reason why I decided to get a new stove. The fact that you imply that I should have a finished basement is absurd. I know its a heat loss but if I absolutely have to insulate it then I would be 3 steps ahead buying a stove that's 1/2 the price with comparable output and 10% reduced efficiency and use that savings to insulate my basement. That's a whole new discussion within itself that Im not interested in.
 
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Marshy

Minister of Fire
Dec 29, 2016
820
NY
Cats are cheap and save enough wood to easily pay for themselves. The king is extremely efficient compared to any noncat. That efficiency can even pay for the stove over time.

You keep mentioning in this thread and others that nobody looked up the max output of a bk for you. Look back, your answer was provided. I recall it was 97000 for the king.
Got a post number or can you provide or a link to BK? I have never seen a peak output listed by BK and I've looked. This wouldn't be the first time your memory was faulty. Just saying.
 
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lsucet

Minister of Fire
May 14, 2015
1,578
San Ysidro, New Mexico
Ok I misunderstood you sorry. I really don't like to see barometric dampers on wood burners they just introduce dilution air into the exhaust which can cause pretty bad creosote issues. I would guess that your strong draft had allot to do with your poor experience with the tube stoves also.
Possibly, the possibility always there plus inexperience. but BK works for me from day one and my learning curve was and is trying to get the most heat i can with low consumption of fuel. of course everything has a limit. and i am thinking also on building a solar energy collector to assist the wood stove. I do not have the situation of depend on the wood stove only for my heating needs like many here and i take my hat off for them but i want to be able in case of an outage or something supply enough heating to the facility just with the stove. that's why i am remodeling and making it more air tight.
I also have two pellet stoves installed, one at the entrance and the other at end of the house. I am not there every day, most on weekends. nobody there during the week. When i get there i hit it with all i have till i bring it back to temp and from there the wood stove do the job. That the reason i want to build a solar collector, to keep the hose warm when i am not there.
 
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jeff_t

Minister of Fire
Sep 14, 2008
4,202
SE MI
Im not putting down anyone else stove either. But all i keep hearing from you guys is how hot is the top lol. And I'm like how low can you go :).
In my experience, stove top temp on a BK tells only a small part of the story. It can be 500 or more directly over the cat, with a fairly fresh load at a low setting. The firebox is dark and only the cat is glowing. My IR would show the rest of the stove at 250 or less.

Conversely, at WFO the top over the cat might only be 600 or so, but the front of the stove can be 800+, and the radiant heat through the glass is searing. My Ultra had side shields, so I couldn't really get a good reading on the sides. I thought about taking the shields off but never did.

I always find it entertaining when people get all caught up in efficiency and BTU numbers. Then tempers flare and feelings end up getting hurt. But, it shows passion for what we do. Not necessarily a bad thing.
 
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Marshy

Minister of Fire
Dec 29, 2016
820
NY
That's exactly what I look like, except my helmet is made of tinfoil!

Jk'ing. I don't think anyone isn't getting along Im genuinely very curious about these stoves. I am strongly considering putting one in my shop, but I am concerned somewhat over the high output ability. I get that they can go slow and low for days even and that they are very efficient. I've had my hands on a few now, well built quality stoves for certain.

I'm just not seeing how a 3-7% efficiency edge done in a lab is equaling all the wood savings I hear about. Also assuming if the king only lists high output of 57,000btu(or whatever it is) that if that is the lower efficiency number than what is the efficiency look like if the stove is being pushed harder? Does it drop off more?
I've done my own calculations (right, wrong or otherwise) to try and figure out what the King is capable of and even then I cannot tell what the peak output in any one single hour is. Further more, I'm not 100% sure if that is what Summit is communicating when they said their stove put out 99K BTU/HR either. I just haven't read about how they quantify that value and some manufactures will not tell you. In that regards, hats off to BK for going the extra mile to help us understand the stoves performance.

In the past I have read the HHV and LHV test procedures to help myself better understand what the efficiency percentages mean to me. At this point in time I don't recall much from that reading. Additionally, it doesn't help to compare stoves if one manufacture used a different method. The point in this thread was also to see if there was a better way to compare different stoves.

Regardless, you want to do a play on numbers then BK gives you lots of good stuff. You could estimate how many btu/hr the stove puts out but there are a few assumptions.

First, the stove specs are: 703,390 available BTU's from a max load, 82% efficiency (HHV), and average output of 48,065 btu/hr for 12 hours.
(703,390 btu x 0.82)/12hr = 48,065 btu/hr averave in a 12 hour cycle.

IF you use the same specs and assume you can burn all of the fuel in 8 hours then it becomes (703,390 btu x 0.82)/8hr = 72,097 btu/hr for 8 hrs.

I know there will be coals in the firebox after 8 hours on high so it might not be fair to assume the stove burnt all of the fuel after 8 hours so there would still be a deduction in performance of btu/hr but it might be minor.

IF you use the same specs but the LHV efficiency of 88% then it becomes (703,390 btu x 0.88)/12hr = 51,582 btu/hr average over 12 hours.
Assume you can burn it in 8 hours: (703,390 btu x 0.88)/8 hr = 77,373 btu/hr average in 8 hours.

As you can see, still not comparable to a stove of relative size that claims "99,000 btu/hr" output. There's a lot to be desired from the manufactures that make a claim like that. It's not very informative if its just a peak number but it is helpful to know if you will have enough horsepower. I'm not sure there is any method to compare performance unless each stove is tested in the same manner. Even then without knowing exactly how many BTU's per hour you need minimum how do you know what size stove you nee? Just buy big I guess.
 
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Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
16,490
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Got a post number or can you provide or a link to BK? I have never seen a peak output listed by BK and I've looked. This wouldn't be the first time your memory was faulty. Just saying.
I'll look it up for you, it's not the first time you've been unable to read a manual.
 
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Marshy

Minister of Fire
Dec 29, 2016
820
NY
I'll look it up for you, it's not the first time you've been unable to read a manual.
Not the first time you've recalled something and been unable to reproduce it either.