Help Needed! Please advise on Drolet/Englander vs Others?

[RJ in PA]

Hello to Hearth forum people!

Thank you for letting me join this forum to learn from the knowledge of you all! I have read many of the posts here in the past, and now am in need of some advice/suggestions/comments. I appreciate any and all comments or suggestions you may have to offer. I guess I am looking into seeing the experiences of others and what has/has not worked for them, or suggestions on what may work well.

Our situation: We have an older pre-1900s approx 1900 sq ft home in central PA that is moderately insulated. There is a fireplace hearth that currently has a old Kodiak Wood stove insert (with a fan) which we put in several years ago. We want to sell/remove the insert due to several reasons, one of which is that is seems to burn through a good bit of wood, a lot of the heat is stuck into the chimney/fireplace, and the fan HAS to be on in order to get really much heat out of it to heat the home. Also, it has only a very small lip for pan cooking or water boiling in the winter.
As a result, we are now looking for a free standing wood stove to sit out of the fireplace to provide better heating as well as a larger space for pan cooking.

Ideally, we would like a new unit (unless there is one locally that is in good condition and shape), with the following qualities:

Top list below is important considerations:

1. Costs ~$1600 or less
2. Rated and does a good job heating ~2000 sq ft. Our home is about 1800 sq ft, but moderately insulated since it is older, from the late 1800s.
3. Solid, quality construction and materials. Heavy duty, USA/Canada made if possible.
4. As large as a flat top as possible, in order to pan cook/kettle boil water/place a pop-up oven to bake bread occasionally. Maybe ~24x~20 inches ideal (this can be flexible). If the whole top is flat, that is great, but if there is enough room for pan cooking, then the rest does not have to be flat.
5. Efficient, does not "guzzle down" wood, and heats well without any fan/electric needs. The less wood it used to burn hot and strong, the better
   
6. Ideally with a nice glass door built well

This this below are less important considerations:

1. Rear vent pipe ideal (due to hearth setup), but not required

In consideration of all this, and in my limited online research, it seems that the Drolet 1800, or the Englander 300 free standing stoves (both built by SBI) may be good options. What do you all think? It seems that the Drolet 1800 has a raised/unflat top, which may be a downside for pan cooking, but maybe better construction overall.
I am certainly open to other brands/types by SBI, or other companies as long as they are solid built and USA/Canada built if possible.

Does anyone have any advice or experience with what they found works well? or what you may think would work well in this situation?

Thank you everyone!! We surely appreciate your help! As small scale farmers, we are not quite stove experts

Have a good day,
Russ J.
Central PA

 

[kborndale]

Do you have a 6" insulated liner in the chimney that is in good condition?

 

[RJ in PA]

Do you have a 6" insulated liner in the chimney that is in good condition?

Hello kborndale!
It is a indoor chimney made with cinderblocks with a liner (mortar chimney), installed in the 1980s I think, and was in good condition as it was not used with wood much (only propane burner). Last year, we had a steel corrugated 8 inch oval flexible liner installed through this chimney up to the top of the house (about 30 feet maybe), which connects at the bottom to the Kodiak wood stove.
We hope that once we take out the Kodiak insert, we will attach a fitting to this 8 inch oval pipe, and then use standard stovepipe to hook up to the wood stove.

 

[brenndatomu]

2 thoughts here.
1, would a wood cookstove interest you?

https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/fireplaces-stoves/wood-stoves/j-a-roby-gemini-wood-burning-cookstove-3-000-sq-ft/pbge/p-1642874323457119-c-6884.htm

2, the SBI line is solid, and this is basically their company store...free shipping too.

Heating Appliances

Discover our wide selection of heating appliances - freestanding or insert stoves, outdoor fireplaces, furnaces, and much more! Free shipping to most regions.

www.myfireplaceproducts.com

 

[RJ in PA]

2 thoughts here.
1, would a wood cookstove interest you?

https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/fireplaces-stoves/wood-stoves/j-a-roby-gemini-wood-burning-cookstove-3-000-sq-ft/pbge/p-1642874323457119-c-6884.htm

2, the SBI line is solid, and this is basically their company store...free shipping too.

Heating Appliances

Discover our wide selection of heating appliances - freestanding or insert stoves, outdoor fireplaces, furnaces, and much more! Free shipping to most regions.

www.myfireplaceproducts.com

Hello!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Unfortunately many of the wood cookstoves are out of our budget (I think the JA Roby is $3500?). Also, I think it may end up being a bit overkill, since we may not need to cook all the time.
Thanks for the advice on the SBI line! I see home depot also has some for a slightly cheaper price, but that website is handy to have. Thanks!

Does anyone have any photos or experiences of their setup and how happy they are with it?

I will try to post a photo of our hearth room today to see if that helps.
Thanks again for the help!
Russ

 

[EbS-P]

30’ of 8’ liner will absolutely over draft any stove you choose. If you didn’t have a damper on the old insert that could be contributing to high wood consumption.

I think all the stove you mentioned are top vent. So you need to go up and then through the chimney (pay attention to celling clearance) if it’s a raised hearth make sure you have enough vertical space. Second any of throes stove on 8” will be sluggish to start but really over draft when hot.

Figure out how you will control the draft.

 

[RJ in PA]

30’ of 8’ liner will absolutely over draft any stove you choose. If you didn’t have a damper on the old insert that could be contributing to high wood consumption.

I think all the stove you mentioned are top vent. So you need to go up and then through the chimney (pay attention to celling clearance) if it’s a raised hearth make sure you have enough vertical space. Second any of throes stove on 8” will be sluggish to start but really over draft when hot.

Figure out how you will control the draft.

Hello Ebs-P,
Thank you for your message and explaining that to me. I was not aware of the possibility of overdrafting.
I will post a photo of our hearth setup here in a moment.
Although the Kodiak insert did go through a good bit of wood, it still had trouble heating the rooms even with the fan on.

Is a damper required for these new EPA wood stoves? It seems that the manuals for both the englander and the Drolet stoves say to avoid flue dampers: "Furthermore, installation of a draught damper is not recommended."

Aren't these new stoves also easily controlled via the air intake draft knobs/holes to control drafting?

Thanks again for your help!

 

[EbS-P]

Hello Ebs-P,
Thank you for your message and explaining that to me. I was not aware of the possibility of overdrafting.
I will post a photo of our hearth setup here in a moment.
Although the Kodiak insert did go through a good bit of wood, it still had trouble heating the rooms even with the fan on.

Is a damper required for these new EPA wood stoves? It seems that the manuals for both the englander and the Drolet stoves say to avoid flue dampers: "Furthermore, installation of a draught damper is not recommended."

Aren't these new stoves also easily controlled via the air intake draft knobs/holes to control drafting?

Thanks again for your help!

I have a filet 1800 insert on 23’ of insulated 6” liner and it absolutely needs a damper. The letter of the law says you can’t install a damper as it is an alteration to EPA approved alliances but the reality is they were approved in a standardized setting not for 30’ of liner. I’m guessing to anything to burn well for you you need a a damper and possibly two.

Most new EPA stoves are Easy to control yes when your draft is in specification. Read the manual find the minimum height requirements and then add for bends. It’s my guess anything more than 10 feet over the minimum needs to pay attention for the possibility of an overdraft.

 

[RJ in PA]

I have a filet 1800 insert on 23’ of insulated 6” liner and it absolutely needs a damper. The letter of the law says you can’t install a damper as it is an alteration to EPA approved alliances but the reality is they were approved in a standardized setting not for 30’ of liner. I’m guessing to anything to burn well for you you need a a damper and possibly two.

Most new EPA stoves are Easy to control yes when your draft is in specification. Read the manual find the minimum height requirements and then add for bends. It’s my guess anything more than 10 feet over the minimum needs to pay attention for the possibility of an overdraft.

Hello,
Thank you for your response and the info! I found it to be quite helpful.
I think we may end up with having two 45 degree bends immediately above the wood stove due to clearance of our fireplace/hearth.
Is there a specific type of damper you would recommend? Or just the simple ones that I can install myself in the single wall pipe?
Thanks again!
P.S - I will be posting a new thread asking about wood stove btu/hr recommendation/estimation just to ensure I am not buying a oversize or small stove.

 

[RJ in PA]

Mod Edit: Merged thread to reduce redundant posting.

Hello everyone!

In our look for an affordable US/Canada quality built stove for ~$1500 dollars, I am trying to decide what size of stove I should be looking for to heat our home?

We live on a small farm in central PA in a older home with the following characteristics:
-~1800 sq ft total (900 per level)
-Chimney about 25' total, has new 8" oval 316TI steel liner, and a good draft.
-moderately insulated home, has thick walls, some ceiling insulation (but still some drafts)
-New wood stove will be free-standing, with the pipe going up into the old fireplace/chimney.
-ceilings about 8 ft or so high.
-semi-open floor plan on the first level.
-currently have a old kodiak wood stove insert, which does not really heat the home up well (especially if fan is off)

I guess my question is what size of wood stove would be adequate to heat most of our home during the winter? Should I go off of btu/hr ratings? Or Firebox size?

So far, my research seems to indicate that a wood stove with about ~50-75,000 BTU/Hr rating would be ideal for heating the home well (but not causing overheating). OR, some research seems to suggest that having a firebox with about 2.0-2.5 cubic feet would be ideal.

I was thinking that a Drolet 1800 free standing stove, or the Englander 300 would be ideal, since they have a BTU/HR rating of 75,000 MAX, and a firebox size of 2.4 cu. ft.

Does anyone think these stoves would be oversized for our home, or undersized?

Thanks very much for the help and advice! I appreciate it!
RJ in PA

 

[Turbo89]

The high mid/high end of that BTU range seems reasonable given what you listed, what are the ceiling heights?

If it’s not in a room I spend a lot of time in, I’d personally try to get a slightly bigger firebox, so I could burn it low and slow longer.

 

[begreen]

New wood stove will be free-standing, with the pipe going up into the old fireplace/chimney.

How so? Does the stove need to be rear vented? If so, the price range may not be realistic due to inflation and tariffs.

What is the lintel height of the fireplace?

 

[RJ in PA]

The high mid/high end of that BTU range seems reasonable given what you listed, what are the ceiling heights?

If it’s not in a room I spend a lot of time in, I’d personally try to get a slightly bigger firebox, so I could burn it low and slow longer.

Ceiling height is just a tad over 8 feet in the stove/fireplace room, which is also in the same part of the house as the kitchen. We do spend a lot of time during the winter months in that area, so perhaps I should play it safe with a 2.4 cu ft firebox as a max?
Thanks for your help!
Russ

 

[RJ in PA]

How so? Does the stove need to be rear vented? If so, the price range may not be realistic due to inflation and tariffs.

What is the lintel height of the fireplace?

Due to our hearth setup (the fireplace/insert opening BASE is about 20" above the floor, as it is a raised hearth), I was thinking a free standing stove in front of this hearth overhang would work well.
I think the lintel height of the fireplace would be 26". That is, the height of the fireplace/insert opening in the hearth is 26 inches tall from the bottom of the opening to the top of the opening. This opening is sitting at the 20" above the floor of the room, on a brick overhang sticking about 18" into the room.
As a result, the top of the opening for the fireplace/insert is about 46 inches above the floor, but only 26 of those 46 inches is the actual opening. The overhang extends about 18 inches out from the fireplace opening into the room.

So, I guess any free standing stove in the room would be at least 18 inches in front of the fireplace, but likely a bit more (I am thinking maybe 20 inches or 24")?

I think a rear venting stove would be helpful, but as you said I am not sure if there is any that is within $1500 and is made by SBI or similar quality brands. If anyone here knows if SBI has any rear venting wood stoves for $1500 or less, I would appreciate your thoughts!

I think the draft situation would be ok if I have to put 2 bends in the pipe above the stove (in order to fit the pipe into the fireplace opening), due to having a real strong draft from our chimney.

Thank you everyone for the help! I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions,
Russ

 

[begreen]

SBI stoves are top vented. It sounds like a replacement insert may be a better plan. What are the full fireplace dimensions? Post a picture of the current setup if possible.

 

[RJ in PA]

SBI stoves are top vented. It sounds like a replacement insert may be a better plan. What are the full fireplace dimensions? Post a picture of the current setup if possible.

View attachment 348147

Thank you for the info and suggestions. Unfortunately, since we have the kodiak wood stove insert currently in the fireplace, I cannot get a fully accurate dimension, but it is close to: 33" length x 26 height x 18 width.

I will try to post a picture here soon to help provide a better understanding of the setup.

Although a new insert is likely easier to install, we really would prefer a free standing stove for several reasons:

1. It will hopefully heat up our home whether we use the fan or not (no fan noise needed, and electricity saved)
2. Can heat the home up even if we lose electricity (quite possible in PA winters)
3. We can cook and bake on the flat top as needed (likely will be used quite often)
4. Possible better efficiency and heating ability due to having much more area exposed to radiant heat rather than being concealed in the fireplace/chimney.

Does there happen to be a general and detailed guide/pdf/manual/instruction or research done about properly sizing a wood stove (btu/hr or firebox size) for a home? Or any experiences from others here (what size of stove or cu ft. firebox has been working to keep your size home warm)?

Thanks again for the help!
RJ

 

[RJ in PA]

Another question for everyone:

Most SBI models seem to be either 2.4 cu ft or 3.5 cu ft. Unfortunately nothing in between from what I can see.

I am concerned that the 2.4 cu ft models will have trouble heating our home. Will going to 3.5 become oversize for our home?

Does anyone have any personal experiences to share on what size their stove is, and how well it heats their size home (properly/poorly insulated)?

Of course, I really want to ensure I try to make a proper decision before buying/installing the stove!
Thanks again!

Rj

 

[begreen]

To run a freestander connected to a liner in the chimney, it's going to need to be a rear-vented stove or a top vented stove that connects to a thimble above the mantel where it connnects to the liner. Or, it connects to a new metal chimney system in another location in the room or house.

Some SBI inserts have adjustable depth. The more the insert sticks out into the room the better it can heat the room radiantly with the blower off. During a power outage the insert would likely still heat the fireplace room well. To get more specific, provide details about the house floorplan, room sizes, etc. A floorplan sketch is always helpful.

 

[RJ in PA]

Good afternoon @begreen and everyone,
Thank you for the thoughts and help. Here is a picture of the hearth setup:

Simple sketch of home floor plan (Red mark means a door is located there):

The Kodiak wood stove insert shown in the photo is a 3.5 cubic foot model.

I was going to put the freestanding/pedestal SBI stove (likely a drolet or englander) in front of the hearth platform, and run the stove pipe at an angle into the fireplace opening (with the old wood insert removed, of course), and connect it to the 8" oval steel liner that goes up to the top of the home. I will also put the hearth pad to protect the floor/walls as needed.

A new question: Should I go oversize and buy a 3.5 cubic foot firebox SBI stove? Or should I stick with the 2.4 cubic foot option? If I go with the 3.5 cubic foot option, can the fire be kept on low to heat the home comfortably, or will this create too much smoke and creosote buildup?
Any downside on going with the 3.5 cu ft oversize stove in terms of efficiency/wood usage/creosote/operation issues?

Many thanks,
RJ

 

[begreen]

It looks like an insert that sticks out onto the hearth could heat the fireplace room with the power off.

What's being proposed isn't proper. I can't recommend this, but it may work if the draft is strong and the horizontal section is pitched upward over 1/4" per foot. Use double-wall for the stove pipe. Also, pay attention to clearances. Furniture will need to be moved. The front of the stove is highly radiant. The Drolet Escape 1800 has a leg version vs the freestanding version. That drops the height of the stove by about 2" which will help create a stronger pitch to the stovepipe connecting to the liner.

 

[RJ in PA]

@begreen ,
Thank you for your thoughts and suggestions, I appreciate it.
Our chimney has a fairly strong draft (it is about 25 feet-30 ft tall), and is a indoor chimney. I think we can get ~1 inch pitch upward per foot for ~3 foot of horizontal pipe, before connecting to the liner with a elbow.
We will move furniture and adhere to clearance guidelines.

SBI did say that I can install a damper in the stove pipe. Can I do this on the ~3' horizontal run (slight upward pitch) of stovepipe?

I did talk to Drolet, and they said that the 2100 may be a better fit for us given our older home and insulation. However, I still am confused about having a smaller fire to heat the room up. Are bigger stoves just as efficinet with minimal risk of creosote buildup/smoldering when burning a small load of wood? As Compared to a slightly smaller stove like the escape 1800?

Thanks again!

 

[begreen]

The advantage of the larger stove will be easier N/S loading and a bit longer burn time. It will still work ok with a 5 split fire as long as it is run hot enough to keep the flue temp above creosote condensation range. This will aslo be a question of other factors like how well the wood is seasoned, user operation, the liner (is it insulated?), The horizontal run + an oversized 8" liner is not helping. In general terms, the more of the flue system that is insulated, (double-wall stove pipe + full liner insulation), the better.

The downside of the larger stove is a bit more room space loss and less pitch in the stove pipe to the liner due to it being taller.

 

[Turbo89]

I can’t speak to the stoves you’re looking at, but if you have a 3.5cu ft stove now, then I’d personally stick with it. I’m sort of surprised that the Fisher stove isn’t doing it for you, folks on here love em and that’s a big stove for the house’s sq-ft.

 

[RJ in PA]

The advantage of the larger stove will be easier N/S loading and a bit longer burn time. It will still work ok with a 5 split fire as long as it is run hot enough to keep the flue temp above creosote condensation range. This will aslo be a question of other factors like how well the wood is seasoned, user operation, the liner (is it insulated?), The horizontal run + an oversized 8" liner is not helping. In general terms, the more of the flue system that is insulated, (double-wall stove pipe + full liner insulation), the better.

The downside of the larger stove is a bit more room space loss and less pitch in the stove pipe to the liner due to it being taller

@EbS-P I just thought I may tag you in case you also have some thoughts.

Thank you Begreen for your advice and help, I appreciate it!

The liner is in a interior mortar (cinder block) chimney that has a oval currugated flexible liner from 316TI steel. I now realize that I am not certain if the liner is 8" oval or not (I will try to check and see).

I think the horizontal run above the stove would be close to ~42 inches or so long, but with a pitch upward of several inches over that length, with a ~70 degree elbow off the stove top.

Would the escape 2100 be inefficient if only a 5 split fire is built? Would it be easier/harder to achieve the secondary burn from the tubes compared to the same amount of wood in the escape 1800 model?

Can I load shorter pieces of splits (16 inches or less) in the escape 1800 North/South and still get a good efficient burn? Or would this not work well, or cause efficiency issues?

At this point, I am concerned that if I buy the 1800, and if I am forced to use it with full loads for a extended period of time, that the stove would overheat/warp/damage.
My concerns on the 2100 model: If forced to burn smaller fires, that it will not activate the secondary burn system and will not heat up well. Also, if it is required to have a large load to burn well, if the possibility of a over fire is much more possible with this size due to more wood in the firebox.

Many thanks again for your help!!
Russ

 

[RJ in PA]

I can’t speak to the stoves you’re looking at, but if you have a 3.5cu ft stove now, then I’d personally stick with it. I’m sort of surprised that the Fisher stove isn’t doing it for you, folks on here love em and that’s a big stove for the house’s sq-ft.

Thank you for your advice and info,
Yes, we were also surprised how the stove had trouble. However, since it is a insert, we think a lot of heat is trapped in the fireplace opening. Also, we are unable to control the draft since there is no damper. There is quite a strong draft in our chimney, which could explain why we had trouble using it.