Liner Install Question

[70Cougar]

I'm planning a Stainless Steel liner install for a used insert I bought, but like everything I try to do, nothing’s ever easy. Our house has a 3 pot chimney (basement fireplace, living room fireplace, and furnace). I’m installing the insert in our basement fireplace, which is a problem since the chimney is not straight, and it’s not 11 x 11” clay tiles. Our chimney sweep said the basement fireplace is below the one in living room, so the basement fireplace chimney goes up, makes a turn (about 30 degrees) and then makes another turn before going up to the top, and the next problem is the clay liners only have a 6.5 x 10” opening. The chimney sweep let me borrow some leftover 5.5 and 6” pipe he had from installs he’d done. I tried the 5.5” first and it goes down fine, but won’t make the first turn going down. I had my wife tug on the rope running into the fireplace, but we didn’t want to get the liner stuck in there, so we didn’t really pull too hard on it. Does anyone know if a round liner will work with this chimney, or have any other ideas for me?

This is a view looking down the chimney (there was another rope attached to the bottom running into the fireplace).

 

[BrotherBart]

Gonna need a liner pulling cone to get it down through there. Not easy but can be done.

 

[BrotherBart]

PS: A good bet that those are 11X7 ID flue tiles.

 

[70Cougar]

Great to hear, thanks for your response!

 

[bholler]

in that case we would usually break out the old liners because there is no way to get proper insulation around the liner. but that is generally not a diy job

 

[russb]

I recently installed a liner, and your sentence about not really pushing and pulling hard caught my attention. I'm still recovering from my install, as it was a full body activity. I had to push on that thing , pull it back up, twist it, and continuously try to slam it down the throat of my chimney to get it down there, and it took the better part of the day (pulling from the bottom didn't do much, though it looks like it would work for you). My chimney was unlined brick and mortar so I went with Unsulflex Magnaflex, which is a pre-insulated liner. So my situation was different than yours, but, just looking at your chimney, it looks like a dream job.

Here's the thread on my liner install (pics near the end): https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-then-hears-the-voice-of-reason.122255/page-2

 

[Hogwildz]

An oval liner may go down there much easier.

 

[bholler]

yes oval would be easier but you should use an ovalised 7" in order to keep the volume you need

 

[Rudyjr]

I had exactly the same setup with my install. My basement fireplace flue makes two turns to get past the upstairs fireplace. You are trying to pull the piece of liner through in a straight line with the ropes on either end to see if it will go and it won't. My 6 inch liner with a cone on one end went in because a flex line can be twisted as you pull it in to work with the bends of the liner being coiled up during shipment to help it work its way in as you pull from below. Not easy to explain but as Brother Bart said it can be done with a little patience and help. Your liner looks plenty big enough you just need the flexibility of the liner to help you guide it in.

 

[bholler]

yes an un insulated 6" will fit but it should be insulated

 

[Rudyjr]

yes an un insulated 6" will fit but it should be insulated

And you know that how from the explanation and pictures shown?

 

[bholler]

I can see that the 6" liner fits and all liners should be insulated that is how

 

[Rudyjr]

ALL liners SHOULD be insulated. Interesting interpretation of code on your part.

 

[bholler]

not code liner manufacturers instructions ul listings csia recommendations making existing chimneys with improper clearances to combustibles able to have zero clearance. not to mention the improvement in performance and the reduction of creosote buildup

if it was a matter of code I would have said they need to be insulated. no they don't absolutely need to be but they will work much better if they are insulated and you get the added bonus of zero clearance to the chimney. which in my experience chimneys almost never have the 1" clearance required so in that case it technically would be required by code. not that anyone would ever check.

 

[70Cougar]

Thanks for the replies everyone! I'm really confident I will be able to get this to work now. I was getting depressed thinking my hopes of a insert in the basement wouldn't work.

Hogwildz, I was thinking of an ovalized liner also, and I believe they are about the same price as round pipe. The only problem I see with ovalized pipe is that I won't be able to turn the pipe to work it through the chimney. I also thought of rectangularized pipe, but as my sweep cautioned, they are over twice the money and then upcharges for the chimney cover, rain cap, etc.

I would like to insulate the liner, and even a couple hundred more dollars wouldn't stop me if the chimney was bigger, didn't have the bends, or if it didn't have a clay liner. The blessing and the curse is that I do have clay liners on a interior chimney, although they are not 11x11" clay liners and I do have a couple bends to contend with.

 

[Hogwildz]

Is installing the insert in the living room an option? Then, can you go straight up?
Unless you spend much time in the basement, you may want to consider this option.

 

[Rudyjr]

Is installing the insert in the living room an option? Then, can you go straight up?
Unless you spend much time in the basement, you may want to consider this option.

Hogwildz,It would have been a straight shot on mine, but if its like my house nobody has spent more than an hour in the living room in the 30 plus years we have been here! The home theater setup and the wet bar are in the finished basement so thats where everyone ends up.

 

[70Cougar]

Hogwildz, thanks for the suggestion, & I thought of the living room (our sweep also suggested it), but my wife doesn't want the stove too close to the kids. Then there's the other problem of the mess. The basement is nice because I have a outside stairwell to bring wood in, and a easy to clean tile floor. Also, the basement and kitchen are always really cold, so the stove would heat the basement and let heat up through the door to the end of the kitchen that's always much colder than the rest of the house. So, the install would be much easier in the living room IF the wife gave-in, but after it's in, it would be more work to load, clean up the wood mess / ashes, and not heat the parts of the house I really wanted to start warming up.

 

[Wormyone]

ALL liners SHOULD be insulated. Interesting interpretation of code on your part.

Exacty....All should be....do it right the first time...good luck and a pull cone like brother Bart suggested will help a lota lot

 

[dave_376]

I would think that round would be the easiest to get in since you can twist it. I am only guessing since I have only installed 1 liner in my house, I did it by myself and had to get it around a bend in the chimney. I would also get a tight fitting block off plate and pour in perlite for insulation rather than trying to stuff a wrapped pipe in there.

 

[BrotherBart]

An oval liner is a pain in the butt. Insane to try to install and brush. That thing is hanging on a mortor joint and a cone will get ya past that. Sure insulated liners are nirvana but with that good condition tile lined flue pull a 5.5 down there like I did and if you want to insulate later use pour in. But if you seal off the bottom and stuff Roxul in the top under the top plate the thing will try to suck splits up the pipe like mine in the basement does. Actually the one on the first floor pulls almost as hard.

Pull from the bottom and push from the top. And yell down up the flue a lot at each other. Wish I had somebody at the bottom when I did my two flues. Would have saved a lot of up and down climbing.

To give it a try take that piece of liner, mash the bottom end into a cone shape, attach the rope to the cone shape at the bottom and give it another shot.

 

[GeHmTS]

If it's that complicated, do you really need a liner? Does the benefit out weigh the labor of love.

 

[wenger7446]

If it's that complicated, do you really need a liner? Does the benefit out weigh the labor of love.

Simply put. Yes.

It's not always complicated.

 

[mstoelton]

Pull the liner using a pulling cone and then insulate with pour-in vermiculite insulation. You will need to install a damper block-off plate prior to the pour in insulation, and the block-off plate will need to fit well. Directions for the block-off plate can be found on this forum.

 

[Rudyjr]

An oval liner is a pain in the butt. Insane to try to install and brush. That thing is hanging on a mortor joint and a cone will get ya past that. Sure insulated liners are nirvana but with that good condition tile lined flue pull a 5.5 down there like I did and if you want to insulate later use pour in. But if you seal off the bottom and stuff Roxul in the top under the top plate the thing will try to suck splits up the pipe like mine in the basement does. Actually the one on the first floor pulls almost as hard.

Pull from the bottom and push from the top. And yell down up the flue a lot at each other. Wish I had somebody at the bottom when I did my two flues. Would have saved a lot of up and down climbing.

To give it a try take that piece of liner, mash the bottom end into a cone shape, attach the rope to the cone shape at the bottom and give it another shot.

Bro Bart, That is exactly how mine is with Roxul at the top and under the block off, pulls like a freight train.