Liner or NO Liner...THAT is the question

[Jersey Joe]

Hi all... long time lurker. I just purchased an old insert I want to install in my fireplace. I have been given different advice from various sources. Many sweeps I called said I MUST install a SS lining citing fire codes and insurance problems. The manufacturer and a sweep I talked to said I do not need a liner if my chimney has lining in good shape. The house was built in 1985 and I've been here since 1995 and only had about 10 fires total. I intend to have it inspected. If it is in good shape do I or do I not NEED a SS liner? I understand that performance may be better with the liner but in terms of being safe to use am I OK? Any help would be appreciated.

BTW... Quotes from 4 different companies ranged from $1900-$2500 for the installation of the SS liner w/ insulation.

TIA

--JJ

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Here is a recent email i recieved from a member. You tell me what you think the problem is....

Hi, Mtn Stove Guy,

I don’t know why I didn’t notice your location before, or I would have consulted with you earlier - before we bought our stove and had it installed.
We live in the Sugarloaf area outside of Boulder - and just went through a night of smoky hell with our new stove.
The stove is a Lopi Declaration. It looks great and seems to burn great, but we obviously have a problem with the draft.
After setting up a long burn and going to bed, we were awoken by the in-house fire alarm going off at 5AM this morning. The whole house reaked of smoke.
After about twenty chaotic minutes, we managed to stop the alarm from going off. But, of course, the house stinks and we feel the frustration that goes along with spending $$$$$$ on a stove and installation and then having your stove create more of a smoke problem than the fireplace insert ever did.

Long story short- we live in the mountains, the winds vary from super windy to nothing, and the installation we had is clearly not adequate. The installer did not use the insert hose, which is not a requirement, and theoretically, I guess, should have worked (he doesn’t believe they are necessary, and we believed him).
But I need help.
I don’t know if you install personally, or if you have the name of someone who can fix our situation (hose, taller pipe coming out of the chimney for better draft....?) Whatever it is, I do not want my family to have to go through a scene like we did early this morning.

 

[BrotherBart]

I bought my house new in 1985. Installed an insert the same year using the "direct dump" into a masonary chimney that you are talking about. Twenty years of poor draft, creosote buildup, chimney fires and lugging that heavy SOB out of the fireplace every year to clean the chimney.

This year I lined the chimney with a SS liner. An absolute dream to clean, you just brush the stuff down into the stove, excellent draft and better mileage from the wood plus a safety margin in case of a chimney fire and on and on and on.

And the liner cost $325 complete including shipping from a dealer on eBay and took two hours to install. Less time than one chimney cleaning took all for of those years.

My advice, line it. I will never light a wood stove without one connected to it again.

 

[wg_bent]

Tight house, and by the time 5 am comes around, the house negative pressure is such that the fireplace/stove back drafts when the furnace or other heating appliance kicks on.

Fix...install outside air supply for the Lopi.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Tight house, and by the time 5 am comes around, the house negative pressure is such that the fireplace/stove back drafts when the furnace or other heating appliance kicks on.

Fix...install outside air supply for the Lopi.

Nope not this one Warren, a outside air kit would not do these folks any good. There dumping into a masonry chimeny that is out of the cross sectional requirements.. this is not a tight house issue, this is a total draft issue due to a liner not being installed.

 

[wg_bent]

So it burned o.k. for a while...then back drafted? You think it's related to the amount of heat going up the chimney then? by the time 5am rolls around, not much fire so less heat = less draft?

I could buy it.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Stove is brand new, that was the first night they owned it. Bummer for them. WHats worse, is i knew who the installer was before talked to them. We have this joker in town that thinks its a total waste to line a chimney. I let him put his cards in my shop one year. I swear the phone wound never stop ringing. When i called the folks that emailed me that , i left a message like this. Hello, this is MSG from hearth.com, and if so and so installed this call me back. Within 30 minutes my phone was ringing...

 

[wahoowad]

Jersey Joe,

Search this forum for topics starting with "liner" and you'll see it is a relatively easy and far less expensive proposition than what you've been presented.

 

[Jersey Joe]

What a great forum! Thanks for the prompt replies. In regards to smoke backing up and out the unit, I assume that means you left the fire burning all night? I would think if it's air-tight and you shut the dampers that would not happen correct? What about installing a length of pipe up into the chimney but not the whole way and then insulating/sealing around it(see fear of heights later)?

Wahoo..."it is a relatively easy and far less expensive proposition than what you’ve been presented."

Do you mean a DIY job? I agree it looks fairly simple in my case as it's new and clean and a straight run. The problem is that I'm afraid of heights and just the thought of going up on my roof is giving me vertigo That's why I can't understand the prices I'm being quoted. I can get the materials(kit) for $450 at the most. and even if it takes a few hours that is a giant markup. I told my wife to skip the 529 plan and send our kids to Sweep School. They would do much better here in NJ than most MBA's. I'm just joking around of course and realize that the small business man does have many costs and obstacles that as a consumer we often overlook. I guess they can charge what the market will bear. More power to them.

 

[GVA]

What a great forum! Thanks for the prompt replies. In regards to smoke backing up and out the unit, I assume that means you left the fire burning all night? I would think if it's air-tight and you shut the dampers that would not happen correct? What about installing a length of pipe up into the chimney but not the whole way and then insulating/sealing around it(see fear of heights later)?

Wahoo..."it is a relatively easy and far less expensive proposition than what you’ve been presented."

Do you mean a DIY job? I agree it looks fairly simple in my case as it's new and clean and a straight run. The problem is that I'm afraid of heights and just the thought of going up on my roof is giving me vertigo That's why I can't understand the prices I'm being quoted. I can get the materials(kit) for $450 at the most. and even if it takes a few hours that is a giant markup. I told my wife to skip the 529 plan and send our kids to Sweep School. They would do much better here in NJ than most MBA's. I'm just joking around of course and realize that the small business man does have many costs and obstacles that as a consumer we often overlook. I guess they can charge what the market will bear. More power to them.

Elk where are ya bud are you up for a road trip? ;-P
Jersey Joe How old are the kids? Times like these are where they come in handy........... "Jimmy I need you to carry this liner up that ladder and shove it down the chimney"
..........................well never mind my kids wouldn't do it either

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

these stoves are not airtight, stoves that were airtight wernt airtight. And even if they were air tight, they would have to be ziplock tight for smoke not to leak out, so instead you use better draft, with good draft you dont get smoke in the room. It takes more then a few hours to line a chimney. Like any professional, people get paid for more then there worth. But who else is going to do it? your quotes do seem high, how tall is your existing chimney? how big is your existing chimney? by the sounds of that quote you either have a very tall chimmey , or one that is going to be a bear to reline. Good luck! keep us posted.

 

[Jersey Joe]

FHS... Kids are 8 & 4, my son would be in heaven if I told him he could go up on the roof...no brains...no headaches

I don't know the flue dimensions or the height but none of the contractors even asked! I'll take a look up the flue tonight to see if I can get a rough idea, and the height can't be more than 25' or so I'm guessing. It's a regular two story with 8' cielings.

I understand completely about the smoke sneaking out. I smoke alot of foods and have a pretty serious smoker and even that will leak smoke when I get it going good.

Believe me, if it weren't for the height issue I'd be on this like white on rice. I even feel guilty trying to bribe my handy neighbors on this one becuase I think it's just too dangerous for the layman.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

a 25' reline is a big job. the prices seem a few hundred high on the low end, but like i say, its a much bigger job then meets the eye. That would be in the neighborhood of a 1600-2000 dollar job here with a quality liner and insulation, proper block off plate, etc..

 

[DavidV]

29 degrees outside right n ow. had to dampen down the stove a while ago because it was running wild. I have a new liner that I put in this year. draft is crazy good. of course I live at about 150 ft elevation and not in the mountains of colorado.. but the difference in draft between this year and previous years is like an on and off switch.

 

[Jersey Joe]

MSG... Now that you mention insulation...Is THAT necessary? Assuming I get the kit and find a guy to push the liner down and such, do I then need to insulate? I see there are two types...blanket/wrap and liquid poured in and around. I also know the reason is to minimize condensation(the chimney is outside) but if I clean the flue every season could I get away without it?

 

[elkimmeg]

What about installing a length of pipe up into the chimney but not the whole way and then insulating/sealing around it

having one half a** installation why would consider another one?
You are in a cold climate, with a stove not drafting right, you need a decent damper block off plate and an insulated flue liner Every other solution is a compromise and again a half a**
attempt. All responses here have indicated the full liner should have been installed in the first place. How did that ever pass inspections?

 

[Jersey Joe]

Elk... There is no stove installed. It's just a plain jane fireplace ... so far. My halfazz installation job is gaining momentum though...

 

[Mike Wilson]

Hi all... long time lurker. I just purchased an old insert I want to install in my fireplace. I have been given different advice from various sources. Many sweeps I called said I MUST install a SS lining citing fire codes and insurance problems. The manufacturer and a sweep I talked to said I do not need a liner if my chimney has lining in good shape. The house was built in 1985 and I've been here since 1995 and only had about 10 fires total. I intend to have it inspected. If it is in good shape do I or do I not NEED a SS liner? I understand that performance may be better with the liner but in terms of being safe to use am I OK? Any help would be appreciated.

BTW... Quotes from 4 different companies ranged from $1900-$2500 for the installation of the SS liner w/ insulation.

TIA

--JJ

I have had the same insert with and without a liner. Performance-wise, the insert is significantly better with a liner. The draft is better, the stove burns better, it starts easier, burns longer and hotter, and smokes less. Keep in mind this is from comparing the same insert over two full seasons.

As for buying it, get one off ebay for 350 bucks and install it yourself, its the same exact liner as someone will charge you 2 grand to installed.

-- Mike

 

[axleman]

I tried the insert-straight-into-the-chimney thing when I first got my insert. Bad idea. Went back and lined and insulated (wrap type). Total cost of about $600 and did it myself. It made a HUGE difference in the performance of the insert, much more than I would have ever guessed. You will be wasting quite a lot of good wood and heat if you do not line. Not to mention that an unlined stove venting into a chinmey is a creosote factory. Just suck it up, don't look down and do it. You will be much happier with your stove if you do.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I think its bad advice to recommend a DIY on this chimney, #1 its tall, and the man doenst like hights, #2 handling a heavy liner up at 25-30 feet in the air takes confidence, you can make a mistake easy when your all tense, #3 the extra grand to pay some one to do it is alot cheaper then a hospitial visit. #4 there always harder then they seem, expecially when there is insulation involved. #6 he might have to do some custom fabrication to get the liner through the damper shelf. #6 the actual stove connection is one of the hardest. Unless your a hard core handy man this is not a job for your average joe.
Now, maybe, just maybe a 13' reline on a zc fireplace would be in the realm of the average handy homeowner. This job is serious.

 

[Jersey Joe]

OK...had an idea today. I called my local rental center and for $168 I can rent a 35' cherry picker for the day. My buddy can get me the SS kit for $298. I'm guessing the insulation won't be too expensive(wrap type). I am paying a sweep to come over and inspect the chimney for $45. He will tell me the actual length and inside dimension of the flue. So now I'm thinking I might be able to pull this off. My only concern is the damper. If you see the picture, that opening is 5.5". Obviously the 6" pipe with insulation is not gonna make it. I'm thinking sawzall the stationary half of the damper enough so it fits through. OR should I cut both sides and try to close the door around the liner so I don't have to rig something to seal the entire opening? Thanks for your help!

 

[elkimmeg]

Elk... There is no stove installed. It's just a plain jane fireplace ... so far. My halfazz installation job is gaining momentum though...

I miss read the post and assumed. I will always to admit when wrong sorry

 

[elkimmeg]

I find a 4" gringer with a thin metal cutting wheel works best. Cast iron and sawzall blades dull rather quickly. After you push threw the liner it is easier to use sheet metal and tapcorns to attach a block off plate. Remember one can use multi pieces. When it is open like that is is quite easy. Sheet metal 2/4 pieces can be bought at Home Crapo

 

[Jersey Joe]

Elk... No problem and thanks for the advice. I do have a small angle grinder so I'll give it a try.

 

[Jersey Joe]

After poking around the net for a while I come upon these direct connect kits like the Ventinox brand. It looks like you can use one of these to get thru the damper without having to modify it and then seal/insulate around it. BUT...doing a search on this BBS, it seems people use these instead of installing a full liner. Couldn't I use the kit to get past the damper and then connect it to the full liner? OR...could I use a 6" liner and oval it at the bottom to get thru the damper? But if I do that I'd have to re-round it for the stove connection. Also, from what I gather, a 6" oval direct connect pipe is NOT the same as making a round 6" pipe oval. Basically I'd be willing to pay extra in order to avoid damaging my damper unless I could do it with the regular pipe.

WHEW...I'm reading this back and I'm not sure if I'm getting my points across

TIA

--JJ