Looking at Enviro Maxx and alternatives. New to pellets and need serious advice.

[1wired1]

Hi, this is my first post and I'm hoping to get some advice on the setup I'm thinking about and also on the stove's available.

I'm going to give as much information as I can think of because I know without it my questions would be pretty pointless.

My house is approx 7000 sq ft. with a fairly open floor plan. The basement and first floor are heated with propane and the upstairs is forced air (zoned). Last winter if I remember correctly we went through approx 1000 gallons of propane. That and the electric heat were very expensive.

Last year I looked at putting a propane insert into the fireplace, but the fireplace is small and with the size of insert we would need it didn't seem to make sense to do it. Plus it wasn't going to circulate the air like I wanted.

I started researching again a few days ago and found units that replaced the main furnace, but it seemed like a bad idea for many reasons. Yesterday I made my way to the local hearth store. The salesman there recommended the Enviro Maxx. He said it should be placed in the basement and they could cut a hole in my return ducting, the heat from the Maxx would be sucked into it, and I can mainly just run the fan on my furnace to circulate the heat. Does this sound like a good plan?

I have read some not so good reviews on the Maxx here, so I went looking for other units that are of similar design and size. There seem to be a lot to choose from. I'm sure same as everyone I want the least hassle and best functioning unit.

This is the link to the website where I found the list of comparable stoves. http://www.pelletstovefires.com/pellet-furnace.html

Also, buying a stove, having it installed, maintenance, and buying pellets, plus time involved is it that beneficial to just paying for the propane?


Thanks in advance for any comments, tips, and advice
1w1

 

[jtakeman]

Welcome to our group. Glad you stopped by before you jumped in!

Careful with that dealer, That's a lot more house then the maxx can handle! 7000 sqft is a huge space to heat with a pellet stove. I really recommend looking into pellet furnaces to cover that amount. I would also recommend you straight to the Harman PF100 as its the biggest baddest one out there. Hook it just like your propane furnace.

I really don't think you'd be happy with the maxx hooked to your duct work as the dealer discribed. You really want a furnace that not only has the heat ducted upstairs, But also has a proper return air system. You end up loosing too much heat in the basement with what the dealer suggested. The more you loose downstairs is less you'll see up stairs. You might end up living in the basement.

Propane is expensive and so is electric, You can save money with pellets. But you'll need to clean the furnace at least once a week. So what you save in cash, will cost you in some personal labor. If you as a busy bee and have little free time? Then no pellets aren't for you. Pellets aren't like propane, oil or natural gas where the furnace is only cleaned and tuned once a season. But if you got some extra time? You could save some coin's with pellets.

If you insist on pellet stoves? You had better think multiple units. One will not keep the whole house warm. 2 to 3 stoves might. Keep us posted!

 

[1wired1]

Thanks for the reply. I started out yesterday to see the PF100, but the local Harman dealer wanted me to go to their other location that stocked that model. I didn't have time so I stopped by the local hearth store. I think with the PF100 it replaces the existing furnace which I don't want to because my wife won't want deal with when I'm out of town or there might be times when I don't want to take time and might just run the propane.

I don't insist on pellet and will gladly listen to any alternative suggestions.

 

[titanracer]

Thanks for the reply. I started out yesterday to see the PF100, but the local Harman dealer wanted me to go to their other location that stocked that model. I didn't have time so I stopped by the local hearth store. I think with the PF100 it replaces the existing furnace which I don't want to because my wife won't want deal with when I'm out of town or there might be times when I don't want to take time and might just run the propane.

I don't insist on pellet and will gladly listen to any alternative suggestions.

It doesn't replace, it's a add on. It gets duct into your orginal duct work. You still have function of standard furnace for back up. The PF100 can be used as a stand alone or a add on furnace.

 

[1wired1]

Ugh the propane truck just pulled into my driveway. As an add on it seems like a good idea. I need to find out how much a unit will run with install and figure out how many pellets I'll go through a year and see it makes sense.

 

[jtakeman]

You can sister the 2 together. It can be used in tandem with the propane furnace. The install will require dampers to isolate each unit and you'll be able to select which one you want. For insurance reasons, Best to keep the propane as the primary source. Most don't except solid fuel devices as a primary heat source.

They will install dampers so you can select between the 2 units. Not a big deal, But a little more cash if you want it to be an automatic system. Most are frugal and use manual dampers, But either will be required to do a proper install.

 

[DexterDay]

How many floors is your 7,000 sq ft?.?

If you use a pellet furnace and utilize the cold air return, you can eliminate the basement sq footage (if you added the basement into your 7,000 sq?). Thats a lot of space and even the PF-100 will have a very hard time heating it, unless you close off parts of the house and not try to heat the basement.

Otherwise its gonna take a few stoves to accomplish. Cleaning them does take time, but the money saved is well worth it. I used to spend about $3,800 a yr in LP. Now I spend about $800 a yr in pellets. Huge savings.

A layout of your home would help. Or a detailed description of the house and how many floors will be helpful also.

 

[1wired1]

3 floors including the basement, basement is rarely used and all the vents are closed. It is finished and I included it in the sq ft

I will try and find the floor plans and upload them. There are two sets of stairs to the upstairs from the first floor which should help the heat find it's way up. Otherwise pretty standard main floor, family room attached to kitchen, the short entrance to dining room from kitchen and foyer that separates dining room from living room. Stairs near family room go up to hallway near three bedrooms, stairs in foyer go up to master bedroom.

 

[jtakeman]

How tight is it? Many have saved loads by added the permanent pink pellets in the attic!

That's a lot of house for sure. But a pellet furnace of 100K should do it but it will run longer than a larger propane, oil or NG furnace. What it lacks in BTU's it will cover in run time. But its gonna eat some fuel while doing it. I also wouldn't set it back more than a couple of degrees. A 50K BTU furnace will give a similar warmth of a 100K BTU oil/propane furnace. But it will run much longer overall. Where you get the savings is in the cheapier cost per BTU of pellets.

NG is cheapier per BTU than pellets. Do you have natural gas in the area? Only thing cheaper than NG is cord wood.

 

[1wired1]

Here's the math I just came up with, I'm sure it's off, but thought I would give it a try.

Just looking at the receipt from the propane delivery we've already had 500 gal delivered this year.

I pre-bought 1000 gal at $2.19 per gallon. If we only use 1000 gallons this year it cost $2100, If I would go through 7 tons of pellets at $200 per ton? ( I just made up that price, I haven't checked around) That would be $1400 for pellets, so a savings of $700 per year. Just from a quick search don't know current pricing. The PF100 could possibly be bought and installed for $4000? So I could recoup the expense in approx 6 years. Of course propane prices could go up or down, but I don't see them going down in the near future. I also don't know how many tons of pellets I would go through. And if the pellet stove does good enough it might save on electric for the upstairs heat.

Am I close on any of the math and pricing?

The house is not that tight for a newer house. There is plenty of insulation in the attic, but I can feel air coming through electric outlets and around doors. I should probably address those things as well. It would help to get insulated garage doors.

 

[DexterDay]

If all 3 floors are the same footprint (sq footage) and you subtract 2,330 (ass-u-me-ing) then its still about 4,700 sq. Still a lot, but much better and easier to heat than 7,000.

A freestanding in the basement does not stand a chance to heating that house. Its gonna be several freestandings or the Furnace (best route).

Can you close off any other rooms in the Main or 2nd floor? To reduce the sq ft even more?

Your on the right track and if the Furnace is installed correctly. Then niether system should be deemed obsolete. If you want to run the LP furnace, then run it. Next week if you want to run Pellets, run it. With the proper dampers in place they will run fine. Just can not run together. Only one at a time.....

There are other Manufacturers of Pellet furnaces. But the Harman is one of the higher BTU units. Traeger, St. Croix, Fahrenheit, are a few others. They are much smaller units, but would give you an idea what your comparing against. As far as options, BTU's, etc. The Harman is definitely the Cadillac of them all.

 

[1wired1]

All three floors have the same footprint. I can close off rooms on the second floor, but not on the main floor.

One other complication I just thought about is that the utility room is very small and there wouldn't be room for the Harman. I would need to have it located outside of the utility room and I'm not sure what's involved with running ducting or other issues.

 

[pelletdude]

Depending on your budget a Froling P4 would do the trick The 2000,000 btu unit can be connected to a water to air exchanger in your present duct work The unit is $15,000 to $20,000 installation and parts run another $10,000.00. http://www.woodboilers.com/default.aspx

 

[Pelleting In NJ]

With $15000 plus price tag, it will take 10 or 15 years to break even...I would stick with propane. The solution might be a PF100 in the basement, and a freestanding stove on the second or third floor (but can't install into a bedroom). I also think your estimate of how much propane you burn per heating season is low. For a 7000 sq foot house, I would think you would burn about 1500 to 2000 gallons, even in Maryland.

Also, instead of the PF100 in the basement, consider a Quad Edge-60 built-in-fireplace pellet stove for the first floor, They are expensive ($5500) but are the only built-in pellet fireplace I have seen. I think that unit is 50,000 BTU. Shop around, I think Quad is going to discontinue them, as they are not selling well, and you might get one for a significant discount.

Also look into an Ecoteck, some models of their freestanding stoves can be ducted to other rooms.

On a completly different idea : If your electric rates are lower than 17 cents/KW-hour, consider getting an oversized (5 ton) heat-pump system installed, in addition to your current propane furnace & AC system. With a low enough electric rate, and the milder winters of Maryland, an added high efficiency heat pump could significantly cut your propane furnace consumption. The propane furnace would maybe only run on the coldest days, when the heat-pump can't keep-up with the BTU demands of the house. I looked at at this option very seriiously, versus a pellet stove, to reduce my propane heating bills in New Jersey, but the payoff period was longer (8 to 11 years) for me, due to the 17 cent rate of my electricity. The big plus of an add-on heatpump is there is no pellet stove cleaning, filling, and pellet storage to deal with. The heat pump is as low maintenence as your regular propane furnace....just adjust the thermostat and replace the air filters. Check out he "Hyperheat" models from Mitsubishi, they put out usable heating BTUs down to an outside air temp of 5F.

 

[DexterDay]

With $15000 plus price tag, it will take 10 or 15 years to break even...I would stick with propane. The solution might be a PF100 in the basement, and a freestanding stove on the second or third floor (but can't install into a bedroom). I also think your estimate of how much propane you burn per heating season is low. For a 7000 sq foot house, I would think you would burn about 1500 to 2000 gallons, even in Maryland.

Also, instead of the PF100 in the basement, consider a Quad Edge-60 built-in-fireplace pellet stove for the first floor, They are expensive but are the only built-in pellet fireplace I have seen. I think that unit is 50,000 BTU.

The Edge 60 is a Zero Clearance stove.. Its 60,000 BTU's and just a fancy Mt. Vernon insert. Same internals. Just a fancy zero clearance chassis.

Not a Bad unit. But the Maxx, P-68, or Enerzone Eurozone would be higher BTU units.

I would think his return would be faster than 10-15 yrs. My Quad paid for itself the 1st yr. I still save about $3,000 a yr. I would think that the OP would use more LP than I do (only 2,180 sq/ 4,360 sq ft counting basement) but that depends on how much Electricity he uses to heat with.

 

[Pelleting In NJ]

The 10 to 15 year payback would be for the $20,000 system that someone suggested.
I suggested the Edge-60 because it sounds like he allready has a fireplace, and some people don't like the look of a free-standing pellet stove.

 

[UncleAnthony]

That's alot of sqft to heat .. 7000sqft , yikes !
Anyway, I have the Enviromaxx, it will do 2800sqft easily, I mostly have it on 3 (of 5) setting.
I am heating 2800sqft, so two maxx's could do upwards of 6000sqft (maybe more ?), but you sure would be burning alot of pellets. Probably two ton or more per month. The maxx has easily handled cold Maine winters here,
so it is possible for you to use two, although it may be a stretch, but you sure would have to get good pellets
to burn. the maxx output is 70,000 btu ,approximate 3k installed each. Good luck !

 

[UncleAnthony]

1wired1,
What not so good reviews on the Maxx have you read here ?
Did the reviews have to do with the very early versions ?

 

[1wired1]

I read about the burn pot having to be replaced over and over again. And maybe there was something else I would have to go back and look again.

$20k is way over the budget.

I would really like to stick with just one unit. If you all don't think one would do I will probably just stick with using propane. My wife won't be happy with one, with two she might throw me out

Thanks for all the responses, everyone has been very helpful.

 

[VTrider]

1wired1,
What not so good reviews on the Maxx have you read here ?
Did the reviews have to do with the very early versions ?

I'm heating my whole house w/Maxx via basement, but my house sounds 75% smaller than the OPs. Most of the major issues w/the model were indeed with the earlier versions (2007?) and I believe have since been resolved via Enviro. This is not uncommon with any new model stove, once they roll out and get real world testing the bugs are soon found. My Maxx was a showroom unit (never fired) from April 2009 and I haven't had any major issues.

In reference to everything read here on this thread, 1wired1 - you seem to be the perfect candidate for a pellet furnace, please buy and install one so we can hear all about how your staying warm and saving $$$ next year!

 

[slangtruth]

A 50K BTU furnace will give a similar warmth of a 100K BTU oil/propane furnace. But it will run much longer overall.

I don't know where you're coming up with that, J, but it's not in my world. I'm trying to heat a space (admittedly with high heat loss, uninsulated 19th century balloon construction and large windows) maybe a third of the size the OP is talking about with a 65K BTU St Croix Revolution furnace which has been cranking all day at full blast (ie 4 bags of pellets a day) with the highest heat/most expensive pellets I can find (Okies, $295 a ton before delivery) and it's barely keeping up. After a night in the single digits here, I know I'll be turning the 120k+ BTU oil on in the morning for an hour or so at least to take the edge off and set us up for the day. I think what the OP is talking about is unrealistic in terms of current consumer-level (Harman, St. Croix, Fahrenheit etc.) pellet furnace technology. He could pick a portion of his space and quite effectively space heat it with pellets. Providing true central heating on the scale he's talking about certainly can be done - there are people who heat large barns for nurturing chickens with pellets alone - but they buy their pellets by the silo full, not in 40 pound bags, and they're replacing 20,000 gallons a year in propane, not 1500-2000.

 

[jtakeman]

A 50K BTU furnace will give a similar warmth of a 100K BTU oil/propane furnace. But it will run much longer overall.

I don't know where you're coming up with that, J, but it's not in my world. I'm trying to heat a space (admittedly with high heat loss, uninsulated 19th century balloon construction and large windows) maybe a third of the size the OP is talking about with a 65K BTU St Croix Revolution furnace which has been cranking all day at full blast (ie 4 bags of pellets a day) with the highest heat/most expensive pellets I can find (Okies, $295 a ton before delivery) and it's barely keeping up. After a night in the single digits here, I know I'll be turning the 120k+ BTU oil on in the morning for an hour or so at least to take the edge off and set us up for the day. I think what the OP is talking about is unrealistic in terms of current consumer-level (Harman, St. Croix, Fahrenheit etc.) pellet furnace technology. He could pick a portion of his space and quite effectively space heat it with pellets. Providing true central heating on the scale he's talking about certainly can be done - there are people who heat large barns for nurturing chickens with pellets alone - but they buy their pellets by the silo full, not in 40 pound bags, and they're replacing 20,000 gallons a year in propane, not 1500-2000.

Lets put it this way, If the oil/gas furnace is only running for 20 minutes and hour. The pellet furnace would only need to run 40 minutes to do the same duty. Its BTU to BTU the same amount but just takes longer. I had a consultant do an estimate on a furnace install 12 years ago. They recommended a 75K to 90K for my shack. We could not afford the furnace and went the pellet route instead. A 40K pellet stove did a nice jod until the heat loss killed it when the temps dropped below 10ºF. I would need to assist with my wood eater. Current day we have our Omega, Ducted like a furnace and never goes higher than the medium(3) heat setting. So After some tightening up I have reduced my heatloss so that a approx. 35K-40K(Omega running at half) can do the same job.

In your case with your high heat loss. Your oil burning furnace is running longer. So the Revolution will need to runmuch longer. If you tighten up your house the revo's performance will improve. So if your current furnace is just barely the ticket in the cold, The my theory will not work and you need to either tighten up or go big! Variables in installations require home work. One thing in your case I would look hard at is your return air. If your using the basement air as makeup for the Revolution? Your killing its efficiency!

 

[slangtruth]

No, it's properly hooked into the system. I'm a bit sensitive to this because the nimrod who sold us the Revolution made all kinds of noise about how it would heat our two ~1300 sq ft floors with no trouble, and we'd be needing a thermostat to hold it down. Instead, it's proven to be adequate to heat part of one floor to the low sixties when it's not terribly cold out, running 24/7 burning 2.5 bags a day, and can hold that 60 deg through a night like last night cranking at 4 bags a day (ie ~$20 a day). I don't want the guy who started this thread to go off reading about people effortlessly heating their 2000 sq ft homes to 72 degrees on a bag of pellets a day and thinking anything available on the market through the regular channels is going to do the same for his 4-7000 sq ft, or that his fuel costs to do so and the amount of work he's going to have to put in are not going to be considerable. He talked above about spending $2200 on propane, between pellets and the 150 gallons of #2 I've put in for emergencies I expect I'll be paying nearly that much this very mild winter on a much smaller space. Still better than oil, but...if I were the OP I'd be looking at maybe a nice pellet stove in the room where people gather most so I could turn the gas down on a cold night, but wouldn't be looking for central pellet heating.

In my own case, I can't help our building, it is what it is - huge (with 10' and up ceilings) and badly insulated, with over 800 sq ft of window space on each floor. The windows are covered with mylar-type insulation, but replacing them is out of the question (one floor would cost as much as a car), and we can't blow in insulation to the walls, we'd have to remove the clapboards and re-side, which is simply not gonna happen unless I hit the lottery, which I can't afford to play The oil heat struggles with it, too.

 

[jtakeman]

No, it's properly hooked into the system. I'm a bit sensitive to this because the nimrod who sold us the Revolution made all kinds of noise about how it would heat our two ~1300 sq ft floors with no trouble, and we'd be needing a thermostat to hold it down. Instead, it's proven to be adequate to heat part of one floor to the low sixties when it's not terribly cold out, running 24/7 burning 2.5 bags a day, and can hold that 60 deg through a night like last night cranking at 4 bags a day (ie ~$20 a day). I don't want the guy who started this thread to go off reading about people effortlessly heating their 2000 sq ft homes to 72 degrees on a bag of pellets a day and thinking anything available on the market through the regular channels is going to do the same for his 4-7000 sq ft, or that his fuel costs to do so and the amount of work he's going to have to put in are not going to be considerable. He talked above about spending $2200 on propane, between pellets and the 150 gallons of #2 I've put in for emergencies I expect I'll be paying nearly that much this very mild winter on a much smaller space. Still better than oil, but...if I were the OP I'd be looking at maybe a nice pellet stove in the room where people gather most so I could turn the gas down on a cold night, but wouldn't be looking for central pellet heating.

In my own case, I can't help our building, it is what it is - huge (with 10' and up ceilings) and badly insulated, with over 800 sq ft of window space on each floor. The windows are covered with mylar-type insulation, but replacing them is out of the question (one floor would cost as much as a car), and we can't blow in insulation to the walls, we'd have to remove the clapboards and re-side, which is simply not gonna happen unless I hit the lottery, which I can't afford to play The oil heat struggles with it, too.

That would have raised a red flag if the oil furnace was struggling. Hard to reduce the heat source volume if the present is just barely doing its job. I'm sure the dealer assumed the oil furnace was adequate. And assuming isn't always good! In your case you might want to look for something thats very close to the oil furnace size. You'll be warmer. Or use the oil to catch u and then go back to pellet to keep up. I would even consider setting it back with a stat, I would think it would be safer to just maintain it at a content level. No setback stat recommended in this case!

Variables always gum things up! But in general a oil/gas furnace that is sized properly. It is generally close to 2x the needed amount on an average day.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

If the OP wants serious advice it should be to do a detailed heat loss calculation for your house.

Then and only then look for a stove that can actually provide that BTU figure at its middle firing rate. Do not forget to use the efficiency figures for each stove you look at to determine the actual BTU output of the stove.

Good luck.