Looking for input on Thermo-Control boilers

[mpilihp]

So I've had a standard New Yorker water jacket wood boiler since 2008 and its done what its intended to, heat the house but not with the best attributes. Issues are high wood use, high ash byproduct and high creosote creation. I've read a lot about i on here and I would love to have one if it could be simple but both my wife and I want something simple. I was looking at a wood gun but there still appears to be the potential for issues with one installed inside with the forced air system with smoking issues being a top concern, also the price...

Im now looking at the Thermo-control units, the 2000 series unit. We are both ok with the high wood usage but want to cut down on creosote buildup and hopefully reduce the ash byproduct as well.

So Im curious from Thermo-control owners if they could provide some feedback on their wood usage, type of wood burnt and creosote and ash levels and need to clean your chimney.

Alittle background info:
We are a full season ahead on wood and we burn everything, it is a mix of maple, oak, birch, and pine. We also burn right down to 1 inch diameter branches. As far as splitting we only split the large stuff, anything under 6-7 inches doesn't get split.

With that we get so much creosote buildup we have to clean the chimney weekly, I built a mechanical cleaner but this is still an issue I want to resolve.

Thanks! ~ Phil

 

[jebatty]

Creosote relates to, and I think you know this, an inefficient boiler with probably lots of smoldering and importantly wood that is not well seasoned. The result also is high wood use and high ash byproduct. Much of your wood supply easily can take more than one year of drying and very likely is high in moisture content. A different boiler likely will not solve these problems.

 

[mpilihp]

We used to have an old ashley wood stove and we burned wood cut that same summer and we had no creosote issues. I would clean the chimney once a year in the spring and hardly anything came out. So not saying the wood couldn't be dryer if left another season but it now gets a full year to dry instead of a couple months and the buildup is horrible.

So I do not think it's completely the wood. I plan my loads by the temp outside and do small fires when not too cold. I also have the house Stat set high 76 to keep it running and not idling. I even have our hot tub hooked to it as a secondary zone so it won't heat if either house zones are calling for heat. This way it rarely idles it's maintaining a good flue temp.

We burn 10 cd a year, to get another 10 cord ahead would be impossible.

So again looking for feedback from thermocontrol owners on how theirs works, what they burn and how long it's seasoned. Thanks. Phil

 

[jebatty]

I hope you get more relevant responses. I was thinking about my Tarm, which produces about 1 cup of ash for a 6 hour burn.

 

[mpilihp]

That would be nice but I don't want a complicated system with storage. My wife is very involved and if it's too complicated she won't want to use it...

 

[JohnDolz]

That would be nice but I don't want a complicated system with storage. My wife is very involved and if it's too complicated she won't want to use it...

I believe most of the newer gasifiaction boilers are super easy and your wife would love them. I travel quite a bit and wanted a system my wife could use. She pushes the on button, loads a few pieces of kindling, throws a few pieces of cardboard on it, hits it with a torch, immediately starts loading the firebox, closes the door and done. I also have it tied to a setpoint controller so if she forgets to start a fire the propane boiler kicks in with no intervention. When a fire is stared and the tanks get over the setpoint the propane boiler is automatically taken out of the picture. Ease of use was at the heart of my purchase. As far as cost of storage and everything else, well that is a whole different conversation........

 

[mpilihp]

Yes so cost is a major item and space for the storage. Also size of wood to use IE we cut 24in lenght and burn everything IE down to 1in diameter branches. To much talk of having to be picky with the wood used and how to load to prevent cribbing. Then also I've read a lot of horror stories about plugged rubes and so on. So I want it simple... load it 3 times or so a day, clean the ash weekly and clean the flue say monthly instead of weekly as we do now...

 

[JohnDolz]

Yes so cost is a major item and space for the storage. Also size of wood to use IE we cut 24in lenght and burn everything IE down to 1in diameter branches. To much talk of having to be picky with the wood used and how to load to prevent cribbing. Then also I've read a lot of horror stories about plugged rubes and so on. So I want it simple... load it 3 times or so a day, clean the ash weekly and clean the flue say monthly instead of weekly as we do now...

Cost and space are REAL issues, the other stuff I would say are not and probably favor gasification.

Cribbing - I would say almost 100% an issue of moisture content or pieces too big, in reality a combination of both. If pieces are cut smaller (especially for the bottom of the firebox, they will dry quicker and the larger, dry pieces will fall nicely. You need to invest a little extra time the 1st year to get ahead and have an inventory of wood. As far as extra time to cut smaller this is offset by the reduced amount of wood required. My firebox can hold 22" length.

Cleaning - 1. Clean out the ash tray every 3 or 4 days (less often in shoulder seasons) - 2 minutes 2. Clean out firebox - 1 time per week an extra 5 minutes on top of cleaning the ash tray 3. Cleaning Tubes - 1 time per month about 15 minutes (most newer boilers have some type of self cleaning that reduces the # of "real" cleaning you need to do. 4. Flue Cleaning - I could say never but guys will probably kill me for that so I would say whenever you get the urge but certainly not more than 1x per year.

Loading - No special loading, open the door, stick it in, close the door. Based on using a mixing valve and seeing what I am seeing I would say on the worst case (coldest days here) I can get by with starting 1 fire a day as long as I go down about 3 hours into the burn and throw another load in - my estimation is 5-6 ours of burning per day will get me through down to about 0 degrees F. This winter has been ridiculously warm so I haven't had weather that cold yet but based on what I saw in the teens I would think this will be true.

 

[mpilihp]

So at this point I won't be able to change her mind. She's read too many threads where people are having issues so I think we are now trying to get input on the thermo control units.. thanks

 

[JohnDolz]

So at this point I won't be able to change her mind. She's read too many threads where people are having issues so I think we are now trying to get input on the thermo control units.. thanks

Phil - take a drive south and I can have my wife give her a demo. Good luck and the demo offer is always there - I hate for you to miss out on the benfits of gasification due to ease of use - cost and storage space I understand.....

 

[mpilihp]

Thanks for the offer John, so how much did your Effecta 60kw system cost installed with storage and how much space does the storage take?

 

[maple1]

Their website says for commercial use only?

 

[JohnDolz]

There was some chat about this elsewhere, I think the lowest reasonable # people put out there was $15,000 for a complete setup (my situation was quite a bit different, happy to share the story offline one day if you are interested). I have very low ceiling which forced me to go with 2 horizontal tanks stacked. They are placed in a corner and then have an insulated "box" built around them. This box is 4' x 10'. If you have the ability I would recommend vertical tanks and obviously the more volume you can accommodate with height the less volume you need in other directions.

 

[JohnDolz]

Their website says for commercial use only?

The Effecta? I would say definitely not commercial use only, I might even say designed more for residential as their biggest unit is the 60kw and most commercial operations would require a much bigger unit (or multiple units). There is another thread talking about EPA's new requirements and how most Gasification boilers have not been tested yet due to Lab /test limitations. If I remember the thread correctly the EPA regs only apply to Residential use so maybe the website was changed so they could continue to sell boilers into the US while the EPA testing process runs its course - just a guess.

 

[mpilihp]

Their website says for commercial use only?

Yes I see that as well but I have seen them at the local fairs a couple times and they were trying to sell it to me. Also there are re-sellers on the web that sell it as well so unless its a brand new requirement I think they can be had. Also I see them for sale used on craigslist occasionally.

 

[mpilihp]

The Effecta? I would say definitely not commercial use only, I might even say designed more for residential as their biggest unit is the 60kw and most commercial operations would require a much bigger unit (or multiple units). There is another thread talking about EPA's new requirements and how most Gasification boilers have not been tested yet due to Lab /test limitations. If I remember the thread correctly the EPA regs only apply to Residential use so maybe the website was changed so they could continue to sell boilers into the US while the EPA testing process runs its course - just a guess.

I think he is talking about the Thermo-Control units, their website says that. So $15K is way to much for me to spend. There is no savings for me, Ive already stopped burning oil with my $1K setup. Im not looking to burn less wood as we both love being in the woods slaying trees. But I do want to make it safer and reduce the creosote buildup.. Again I dont think its just the wood, I think the boiler has something to do with it as we used to use a wood stove and same wood and had no issues. THe wood wasnt even seasoned a year back then. Would cut in summer and burn that winter...

 

[maple1]

The Effecta? I would say definitely not commercial use only, I might even say designed more for residential as their biggest unit is the 60kw and most commercial operations would require a much bigger unit (or multiple units). There is another thread talking about EPA's new requirements and how most Gasification boilers have not been tested yet due to Lab /test limitations. If I remember the thread correctly the EPA regs only apply to Residential use so maybe the website was changed so they could continue to sell boilers into the US while the EPA testing process runs its course - just a guess.

No, Thermo Control.

'Not for sale in US for Residential use'.

 

[JohnDolz]

No, Thermo Control.

'Not for sale in US for Residential use'.

Ahhhh, sorry about that.

 

[JohnDolz]

I think he is talking about the Thermo-Control units, their website says that. So $15K is way to much for me to spend. There is no savings for me, Ive already stopped burning oil with my $1K setup. Im not looking to burn less wood as we both love being in the woods slaying trees. But I do want to make it safer and reduce the creosote buildup.. Again I dont think its just the wood, I think the boiler has something to do with it as we used to use a wood stove and same wood and had no issues. THe wood wasnt even seasoned a year back then. Would cut in summer and burn that winter...

Fully understand, gasification with thermal storage is a whole different animal. Good luck!

 

[maple1]

But I do want to make it safer and reduce the creosote buildup.. Again I dont think its just the wood, I think the boiler has something to do with it as we used to use a wood stove and same wood and had no issues. THe wood wasnt even seasoned a year back then. Would cut in summer and burn that winter...

Yes, the boiler does have something to do with it - absolutely.

My old one (it was an oil/wood combo) could make creosote like crazy. It had next to no heat transfer/exchange ability. So I had to keep at it constantly, dampering down just right to slow the flow of heat into the stack so more of it could get into the water. But that had the bad effect of making more creosote. If I opened it up so it would burn half decently, most of the heat would go up the chimney. And it still made some creosote. And I had dry wood.

There are a couple of aspects to a gasifier. It burns all the dirties so there is nothing there to condense to creosote, and they transfer heat better with tubes. IMO you could also make very good gains, by adding storage onto a non-gasifier but one that had decent heat transfer ability - tubes. My parents have an old Kerr that has tubes, I think it would make a decently good setup if you batch burned to storage with it. You would still have to clean creosote, but I suspect it would become a more or less infrequent event. I am not totally familiar with the New Yorker, but I think it is kind of in the same class as my old one - not very good heat exchange capability. So there might also be a possiblity of finding a used boiler with tubes, and adding storage? The storage add would gain you the most re. dealing with less creosote, even if you didn't jump all the way into a gasifier - I usually see decent used wood boilers for sale around here, like a Kerr with tubes.

And there's something else to keep in mind also. It's not actually a fair comparison to compare how a stove works with how a boiler works. A boiler by nature has a liquid cooled firebox, so it has much more creosote making potential than a stove by design. Which is why boilers have evolved to batch burning with gasifiers to get to the same level of clean burning.

 

[rwh442]

I have a Thermo-Control 2000 and have had is since 2008. Search for my name and previous posts about it for better details.

I have used as low as 7.25 cords per year and as high as 9.5. So average around mid 8 cords I would guess.

The boiler is in an insulated three car (roll up doors) garage around 1600 sq ft. The house is a ranch style around 2100 sq ft. The hot water is pumped to the house through a water to air hx in the furnace. I keep the house temp at 71 year round.

I have got to the point where my wood is usually at least 1 year seasoned, this years is close to 2 years seasoned and is burning well.

The last several seasons I have not cleaned my chimney until the season is over. The chimney is a straight shot up - no bends at all and I'm guessing about 14'. So one cleaning at the end. I would estimate I get maybe 1-2 gallons of chimney creosote and inside of boiler creosote cleaning at the end of the year. I then spray the inside of the boiler with liquid wrench for the summer.

Ash cleanout is maybe about 1 gallon per day or so. I just use a small shovel and metal bucket.

I burn at a stack temperature of 600 deg F. I think that helps keep the creosote in the chimney at a minimum. After some "bad burns" (logs with moisture) I can smack the stack with my hand and get a thud sound. A nice hot clean burn after that and I get a tinny sound (clean). For some reason the stack

I burn shagbark hickory, sugar maple, black cherry, black and honey locust, white ash, walnut, hedge, hackberry, red oak, white oak, hophornbeam, sasafrass. A total mix of wood. I save the hickory and locust for the colder nights.

A typical winter day requires about 4 loadings.

I have to comment - If the boiler I had was in my house basement I would probably use 1/2 to 1/3 less wood. My detached 3 car garage typically stays in the 60's if that is telling you something. The radiant heat off the 2000 boiler is awesome to say the least.

Any more questions just ask.

 

[mpilihp]

Hi rwh442 thanks for the input. It's good to hear you can go a full season without cleaning it. That is way better than my need to clean it weekly with this new yorker unit. You do have a truly large mix of wood, some I don't recognize. Is any of it considered a soft pitch wood like white pine? I would be putting it in our basement so the radiant heat would be heating the house.

 

[mpilihp]

Yes, the boiler does have something to do with it - absolutely.

My old one (it was an oil/wood combo) could make creosote like crazy. It had next to no heat transfer/exchange ability. So I had to keep at it constantly, dampering down just right to slow the flow of heat into the stack so more of it could get into the water. But that had the bad effect of making more creosote. If I opened it up so it would burn half decently, most of the heat would go up the chimney. And it still made some creosote. And I had dry wood.

There are a couple of aspects to a gasifier. It burns all the dirties so there is nothing there to condense to creosote, and they transfer heat better with tubes. IMO you could also make very good gains, by adding storage onto a non-gasifier but one that had decent heat transfer ability - tubes. My parents have an old Kerr that has tubes, I think it would make a decently good setup if you batch burned to storage with it. You would still have to clean creosote, but I suspect it would become a more or less infrequent event. I am not totally familiar with the New Yorker, but I think it is kind of in the same class as my old one - not very good heat exchange capability. So there might also be a possiblity of finding a used boiler with tubes, and adding storage? The storage add would gain you the most re. dealing with less creosote, even if you didn't jump all the way into a gasifier - I usually see decent used wood boilers for sale around here, like a Kerr with tubes.

And there's something else to keep in mind also. It's not actually a fair comparison to compare how a stove works with how a boiler works. A boiler by nature has a liquid cooled firebox, so it has much more creosote making potential than a stove by design. Which is why boilers have evolved to batch burning with gasifiers to get to the same level of clean burning.

Hi I agree with you that it isn't an apples to apples comparison but I'm hoping there is something out there that is simple and safer to use than this thing and isn't $15k worth of an expensive complicated investment.

 

[rwh442]

I have never burned pine in it except for the occasional 2x4 or 2x6 scraps. Can't tell you how it burns - sorry.

The basement is THE place for the 2000 boiler. I think Thermo-Control recommends it also, for obvious reasons.

 

[mpilihp]

Ok thanks! So how long ago did you buy it and did u buy it directly from them? Reason I'm asking is their website now says only for sale for commercial use....