My 118 cb Black Bear experience, and questions about replacement

[begreen]

FWIW, I still think a PE Alderlea T5 (or Super 27), Woodstock Paladian or Keystone would work well. Mid-sized Napoleon too (1400 series). Though I expect the Avalon will also do the job just fine. If money is tight I would consider the Englander 13NC.

 

[precaud]

Yes, the 1400 is a 18"x18" firebox, good for N/S. Even the top plate is jacketed on it, so the glass is the only radiant source. The 13NC is not good for N/S. If it's in budget, I'd give a nod to the PE models. How much less is the 1400?

EDIT: The leg 1400 model is not jacketed on the top. Both models use the heavy clay firebrick.

 

[begreen]

The Napoleon 1450 is about $1100 vs a base model PE Super27 at about $1450 (comes with free blower til 11/30/2010)

 

[jeffee]

That napolean looks nice, thank you for the recommendation BeGreen. I can't seem to find a local dealer though. I'll keep checking. Another issue I may have with the Avalon is my chimney (superpro/supervent) isn't on their list of chimneys acceptable for reduced clearances.

edit: dealer says it is acceptable for reduced clearances -- it is made be Selkirk Metalbestos

 

[begreen]

You can order online for $1079, shipping included.
(broken link removed to http://www.northlineexpress.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=5NP-1450)
http://www.woodstoves.net/1450.htm

or dealer - (broken link removed to http://www.dondavisheating.com/products.htm)

 

[precaud]

The 1450 looks pretty good internally.

 

[Rob From Wisconsin]

Thanks folks. Angus, the 2b is too small, no? Precaud, do you have any recommendations?

Thanks!

I've personally been on a quest for a true N/S stove that will fit into my small hearth area.
Of course the Jotul 602 would fit just fine, but I would like something bigger.
A great alternative is the Morso 2B Classic, as it is somewhere between the 602 & 118.
It also is lined w/ ceramic (firebrick like).

Hope a second opinion helps.....

 

[jeffee]

Thanks BeGreen and Precaud! Thanks Rob, but I can't go any smaller than the 118. Interestingly, the Napolean 1450 is barely heavier than the 118.

What do folks do about warranties? If you install the stove yourself, the warranty is void (from the Napolean manual).

 

[precaud]

What do folks do about warranties? If you install the stove yourself, the warranty is void (from the Napolean manual).

Wow, I've never seen that before. Apparently they don't want anyone upgrading their current stove to one of theirs. What an exclusion. Might be worth writing them an email about.

 

[Biff_CT2]

I was curious as to your experience, or other individuals with similar experiences, with damaged baffles within the updated Jotul 118. I'm a very content 550 owner, and am considering a new 118 due to the tax credit for a contemplated home renovation project.

My understanding about EPA airtight stoves generally is that they have very little resale value due to risk of picking up an an overfired unit. Hence, you're married to the thing once you buy it.

For example, the below link goes to a unit presently available on ebay for reasonable coin, is immaculate on the exterior, but has some disturbing asymmetries on the interior of the firebox.
(broken link removed to http://cgi.ebay.com/Jotul-F-118-CB-Black-Bear-/320617122087?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa6450927)

The interior picture (attached) seems disturbing, particularly towards the back end. Even given the $1800 vs $250 discount on this used unit, I'd be concerned that this guy is selling $30 worth of scrap steel and iron for $250 - with the buyer paying the freight.

I'd be curious to see any pictures you, or anyone else might have, of damaged baffles in the stove or after removal.

I love the look of the 118, but want a stove I can use for at least ten seasons.

 

[precaud]

This post is just another example of how effective Jotul marketing has been on this model.

Biff, use this site's search function for "F118" and you'll see plenty of discussion about it, some by me. Some general comments:
Your statement about the resale value of EPA stoves is grossly overgeneralized.
That eBay listing starts at $250 but has a higher reserve price.
The listing says " I guarantee you will not find a better one. It was used only occasionally..." [cough]
Just like a marriage partner, generally speaking, you are asking for trouble if your main criteria for choosing a particular stove is how it looks.
The F118 was flagged early on as an underperformer with potential reliability issues. Why would you want to get in on that action?

 

[jeffee]

I would like to say that in my researching of this site, when I bought my black bear, I did not find any mention of reliability issues-- I'm guessing because few had owned one. I had to learn about this the hard way. I do think that this is a wonderful site, and I am happy to be able to share my experience and provide information to others. I regret that this information is not positive, and hope in the future I will be able to contribute positive information.

Biff, I'll try to get a picture up of my last baffle. It would have been better for that picture to include the front of the burn box, which it didn't.

 

[precaud]

That's true, jeffee, those issues didn't start surfacing until a couple years later.

No need to be apologetic. There's nothing more positive than sharing your experience honestly. Whether it is "good" or not, others will benefit by it. Besides, you're covered under Hearth.com's Witness Protection Program.

 

[Biff_CT2]

This post is just another example of how effective Jotul marketing has been on this model.

Biff, use this site's search function for "F118" and you'll see plenty of discussion about it, some by me. Some general comments:
Your statement about the resale value of EPA stoves is grossly overgeneralized.
That eBay listing starts at $250 but has a higher reserve price.
The listing says " I guarantee you will not find a better one. It was used only occasionally..." [cough]
Just like a marriage partner, generally speaking, you are asking for trouble if your main criteria for choosing a particular stove is how it looks.
The F118 was flagged early on as an underperformer with potential reliability issues. Why would you want to get in on that action?

Interesting feedback.

As for stoves generally, there's a balance between aesthetics and functionality. The 118 is great looking unit, and would look great in setting I've got in mind. That said, I'd like something I can use - and I'm not interested in a passive piece of furniture. My research here steared me away from the VC, and I'm grateful. So, to your point, I'll do a bit of 118-specific searching. I'd never previously noticed negative 118 feedback prior to seeing this thread, though I'd never expressly searched for it either.

Ideally I'd like to have both functionality and pleasing aesthetics, and my Jotul 550 seems to be a good mix. Hence, I trust the Jotul brand. As such, I was inclined to consider the 118, possibly taking some risk with a used unit. This thread gives me pause - particularly in view of the asymetical gaps I see in the posted picture.

I'd appreciate some technical feedback if you (or anyone else) can provide it, ie. how many seasons before serious damage; performance degradation from warped baffles; cost for replacements/repairability; safety concerns and the like - photos would help.

FYI: We lived in sunny New Mexico for a few years (Rio Rancho). Nice place, though the climate there was an entirely experience for a burner than here in CT. We didn't trust the local schools though, and found the locals to be bit zenophobic and hostile (ie. I've never been referred to as an 'Anglo' while being setup for a mugging, though the same sort of thing could happen in New Haven these days). Also found myself spending way too much time away from home on work assignments up in Portland, Oregon.

 

[begreen]

My understanding about EPA airtight stoves generally is that they have very little resale value due to risk of picking up an an overfired unit. Hence, you're married to the thing once you buy it.

That has not been my experience. First off, EPA stoves are not airtight. If you know what you are looking for, an overfired stove is often easy to spot. A good EPA stove in good condition will have good resale value, especially if it is a model in high demand. Our F3CB sold for $250 less than we paid. Due to inflation and the declining dollar I sold the F400 for slightly more than we paid for it. The fact that they were well cared for and in blue-black enamel helped these stoves sell very quickly.

 

[precaud]

Biff, I forgot to say earlier, welcome to Hearth.com . I think you'll find it's a pretty cool place for stove-related info.

When you do your search, use the terms "Black Bear" and "F118", not "118". That's the old model, and not to be confused with it's successor.

Yes, Rio Rancho is quite a different world than CT, on many levels, as you said. I'm not fond of it or Albuquerque in general, I live 60 miles north in Santa Fe. But it's nice having a city with a real airport an hour's drive away...

As for the detailed accident reports on the F118, I can't help you with that.

 

[Biff_CT2]

I would like to say that in my researching of this site, when I bought my black bear, I did not find any mention of reliability issues-- I'm guessing because few had owned one. I had to learn about this the hard way. I do think that this is a wonderful site, and I am happy to be able to share my experience and provide information to others. I regret that this information is not positive, and hope in the future I will be able to contribute positive information.

Biff, I'll try to get a picture up of my last baffle. It would have been better for that picture to include the front of the burn box, which it didn't.

Much appreciated.

I can't tell or show you any more than what the seller has posted. What he does show of the front in the attached image looks fine to me.

 

[Biff_CT2]

My understanding about EPA airtight stoves generally is that they have very little resale value due to risk of picking up an an overfired unit. Hence, you're married to the thing once you buy it.

That has not been my experience. First off, EPA stoves are not airtight. If you know what you are looking for, an overfired stove is often easy to spot. A good EPA stove in good condition will have good resale value, especially if it is a model in high demand. Our F3CB sold for $250 less than we paid. Due to inflation and the declining dollar I sold the F400 for slightly more than we paid for it. The fact that they were well cared for and in blue-black enamel helped these stoves sell very quickly.

Familarity and experience may explain.

I need to visually see images of beaten on units to compare with the dealer new stock to understand good-used from bad-used. Hence the value of this site. Without that fishing for used units seems risky. Like anything else though, individual experiences differ.

 

[begreen]

jeffee, have you considered rebuilding your stove in the manner that precaud did? That would be replacing the side panels with skamol or vermiculite, cut to fit. After all, you own this stove and if you like it, then maybe just remedy its weaknesses?
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/34651/


PS: you can burn the stove with slightly cracked side panels without harming it. The side burn plates are sacrificial. They normally they last more than 4 years, but if only slightly cracked, they may make it through the season ok.

 

[precaud]

Interesting idea, BG. Do measure the thickness of the F118's side panels - if they're like the F602, they're 1/2" thick. All of the Skamol panels I've seen are 1".

 

[jeffee]

jeffee, have you considered rebuilding your stove in the manner that precaud did? That would be replacing the side panels with skamol or vermiculite, cut to fit. After all, you own this stove and if you like it, then maybe just remedy its weaknesses?
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/34651/

Thanks for the idea and support BeGreen, but I don't want to do this.

PS: you can burn the stove with slightly cracked side panels without harming it. The side burn plates are sacrificial. They normally they last more than 4 years, but if only slightly cracked, they may make it through the season ok.

Thanks for this information. Well, they both have a major vertical crack that spans most of the plate. The cracks are both about 30 or 40 percent from the front of the stove -- both of them.

 

[argus66]

i sad to see the black bear was a bad stove. i always liked this stove and almost bought it but wife wanted more fire view. but i love cigar box stoves for some reason.

 

[Fort Wisers]

This post is just another example of how effective Jotul marketing has been on this model.

Biff, use this site's search function for "F118" and you'll see plenty of discussion about it, some by me. Some general comments:
Your statement about the resale value of EPA stoves is grossly overgeneralized.
That eBay listing starts at $250 but has a higher reserve price.
The listing says " I guarantee you will not find a better one. It was used only occasionally..." [cough]
Just like a marriage partner, generally speaking, you are asking for trouble if your main criteria for choosing a particular stove is how it looks.
The F118 was flagged early on as an underperformer with potential reliability issues. Why would you want to get in on that action?

I know this is an old thread but I thought I would share that we too did not have a fun season with our new Jotul F118CB Black Bear.
Before I begin;
I realize there are some folks on this site that own and are happy with their F118CBs stoves, I mean no disrespect to you, and if you're happy with your stove than I am truly happy for you !

We purchased a Black Bear for our cabin in central Quebec, Canada.
The look is great and the foot print worked well with the existing layout of the cabin.
However we were very disappointed with the stove as a functional heater.

Unfortunately, we saw the stove online and fell in love with the look and footprint of the stove and didn't do our homework.
We are wood burning people (I grew up around wood heat and we heat our home 100% with wood heat) so I should know better than to purchase a stove simply because of it'a appearance!
Jotul seems to simply believe the problem lies with us as the end user.
We got the run around that our cabin is not insulated well enough, there must be issues with our wood etc etc.

We spent a lot of money on this stove and feel the information on Jotul's website is mis-leading.
I seems we're not alone in our disappointment with this stove, so we feel justified in making that statement.
In this case, our cabin is off-grid, so wood heat is the only source of heat.
In such a case, as everyone on this forum knows, a poor performing stove is like an extra slap in the face because with-out a good heat source the cabin becomes unusable in the winter season.

Our biggest mistake was not taking the time to do our homework before the purchase, totally our own fault, so in the end we have only ourselves to blame.
This spring we will be changing the layout of the cabin to fit a larger stove that will easily burn through the night and keep us plenty warm!

Hope your stove is keeping you warm and toasty!
Cheers