My first 650 miles with a BEV

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peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,899
Northern NH
ICE vehicles will remain in the mix but it you look at the vast majority of fossil fuel use its local driving and single person commuting. I work at various manufacturing companies on occasion and when cruising the parking lots looking for a parking space, I see a lot of expensive pickup trucks that are obviously being used for commuting. In my case with my current and final two projects I am driving 410 miles round trip to one site and 320 miles round trip to the other one so an EV is not practical, but my guess is the vast majority of those in the parking lot are within a BEV range with a block of time overnight to recharge. Odds are a bunch of the workers in these lots are two (or three) vehicle families.

Car companies long ago figured out that car and truck sales are all image. The vast majority of 4WD vehicles sold are rarely if ever put in 4WD or even driven off road. Few vehicles ever drive over 85 MPH yet some will run in excess of 140 MPH. No one needs a Dodge Hellcat, yet folks are buying them. BEVs are just not yet cool and currently not as profitable so the car companies still pump a bunch of money trying to sell conventional ICE vehicles. My guess is a lot of the big gas hog ICE vehicles are going to start flooding the repo market soon as the low money down seven year liar loans that were handed out to anyone who can breathe will start getting called in when the owners discover they can not afford the gas.

I live in a vacation destination (White Mountains of NH) and despite very nice weather the last few weekends, the amount of weekend traffic in parking lots is definitely down compared to prior years the big weekends are still to come but to date its noticeable. The hospitality firms are not yet complaining as they are having a tough time staffing but it is an indication that despite official PR that vacationers are not changing their plans, some are. Even the ATV crowds are thinning out.
 
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EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
4,085
SE North Carolina
1Mwh update…. I passed the 1000kwh usage mark today. 5 months, 200kwh per month.
Average 354 wh/mile. 2900 miles All city driving. The acceleration never gets old. Falcon doors cool factor is waning, and I’ve only closed them on myself once this week. Stupid car shaped key fob where the buttons are the whole fob.

Saving has paid for the wall charger.

V11 installed last week now I can complain like all the other Tesla owners. Still waiting for Full Self Driving…..
 

ABMax24

Minister of Fire
Sep 18, 2019
1,791
Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada
When a person starts looking at energy consumption in kwh per month for commuting, its not that bad. I'd probably average the same as you, 10,000km per year. Basically I could commute to work using less electricity than the measly 3,000kwh my house uses per year. I easily have enough roof space to install more solar panels to cover my commute, I probably have enough roof area to cover both mine and my wife's commute.
 
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Isaac Carlson

Minister of Fire
Nov 19, 2012
1,033
NW Wisconsin
Kilowatt hours on your end might look good, but when you count the energy to mine, transport, process/refine, manufacture, and sell the panels/chargers/batteries/cars, and then creating the energy to run the cars and the problem of what to do with old panels, where does it put you? Also, repairing a tesla is not always an option or allowed. I would wager a fair amount that the energy involved in the above chain is more than the gasoline I burn in my 20 and 30 year old vehicles. I'n not hating on tesla owners, just pointing out that what appears and is marketed as green is not so green. I am perfectly happy driving an older vehicle that is paid for many times over and that I can maintain and repair myself. Tesla still can't hold a candle to gas powered freight haulers of any kind, be it semi trucks, pickup trucks, or vehicles pulling trailers. The energy density just is not there. I can load my truck to 10-12k lbs and drive all day. A tesla will be dead in less than an hour, and the battery will be cooked.
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,936
SE PA
Kilowatt hours on your end might look good, but when you count the energy to mine, transport, process/refine, manufacture, and sell the panels/chargers/batteries/cars, and then creating the energy to run the cars and the problem of what to do with old panels, where does it put you? Also, repairing a tesla is not always an option or allowed. I would wager a fair amount that the energy involved in the above chain is more than the gasoline I burn in my 20 and 30 year old vehicles. I'n not hating on tesla owners, just pointing out that what appears and is marketed as green is not so green. I am perfectly happy driving an older vehicle that is paid for many times over and that I can maintain and repair myself. Tesla still can't hold a candle to gas powered freight haulers of any kind, be it semi trucks, pickup trucks, or vehicles pulling trailers. The energy density just is not there. I can load my truck to 10-12k lbs and drive all day. A tesla will be dead in less than an hour, and the battery will be cooked.

PV panels need to operate for about 1.5 years to make more energy than required to make and install them.

EVs on grid average US power need 3-4 years of use to have lower total emissions than an ICE car.

PV panels last 20-30 years. EVs (and their batteries) are currently expected to last 15+ years.

Their unusual minerals (Si, Li, Co, Ni) are highly recyclable for considerable energy savings, just like the steel, aluminum, copper and lead in current cars.

A world where we all drove EVs powered by solar on our roofs would have <1/3rd of the emissions on average of the current system. With recycling that would drop a bit more.
 
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DBoon

Minister of Fire
Jan 14, 2009
1,335
Central NY
Kilowatt hours on your end might look good, but when you count the energy to mine, transport, process/refine, manufacture, and sell the panels/chargers/batteries/cars, and then creating the energy to run the cars and the problem of what to do with old panels, where does it put you?
Of course, this completely ignores that there are energy costs to extract oil, refine it, and transport it by pipeline and truck to the place where I can put it in my car or truck, where it is then burned at 25% efficiency, give or take.
 
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woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,936
SE PA
Of course, this completely ignores that there are energy costs to extract oil, refine it, and transport it by pipeline and truck to the place where I can put it in my car or truck, where it is then burned at 25% efficiency, give or take.
That overhead is generally considered to be about 25%, averaged over supplies.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
4,085
SE North Carolina
Tesla updated their app to include charging stats. Looking like 250 kWh a month seem to be our summer usage. Kids go back to school so it will go up. Probably by 100 kWh. All this on #12 wire. Limited to 13A.

159DC0A2-906D-4DD5-BA6C-2667733B47E2.png
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
6,483
Long Island NY
And that 250 kWh gives you how many miles?

I'm calculating what I can do with my yearly solar overproduction when an EV comes in.

(If not enough, I have to add a woodshed for more wood heat and less minisplit heat :lol:
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
4,085
SE North Carolina
And that 250 kWh gives you how many miles?

I'm calculating what I can do with my yearly solar overproduction when an EV comes in.

(If not enough, I have to add a woodshed for more wood heat and less minisplit heat :lol:
Something isn’t adding up. My trip odometer that was reset on August 1 is reporting 460 miles and 165 KWh used and my app is showing 200 kWh. So it’s either 165 or 200 kWh for 460 miles.
 
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woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,936
SE PA
Something isn’t adding up. My trip odometer that was reset on August 1 is reporting 460 miles and 165 KWh used and my app is showing 200 kWh. So it’s either 165 or 200 kWh for 460 miles.
INTERESTING!

Does the app include your famous Tesla vampire loads? 2 kWh/day? Does it include a correction (estimate) for charging efficiency? The latter would be half of the difference (about 10%). So then 1 kWh/day vampire load gives the rest.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
4,085
SE North Carolina
INTERESTING!

Does the app include your famous Tesla vampire loads? 2 kWh/day? Does it include a correction (estimate) for charging efficiency? The latter would be half of the difference (about 10%). So then 1 kWh/day vampire load gives the rest.
All good questions. I’m not far enough down the Tesla hyper loop to have answers. Nor do I care enough to spend to much time looking into it. I won’t be able to change anything about it.

I sure someone has figured it out. There are owners that are reflashing the software to roll back updates.

The real answer would be to measure usage at the sub panel. Then one could compare all 3 numbers.
 

tlc1976

Minister of Fire
Oct 7, 2012
1,216
Northwest Lower Michigan
How much do these batteries lose their initial charge with time? That’s another loss. Extreme example, but if I fill my tank and store it for the winter, I’ll have a full tank in the spring. If I fully charge up my EV and store it for winter, I’ll probably have a dead and destroyed battery in the spring. It might take a lot more input to get the same output over time. Over the course of the month every little bit adds up.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
4,085
SE North Carolina
How much do these batteries lose their initial charge with time? That’s another loss. Extreme example, but if I fill my tank and store it for the winter, I’ll have a full tank in the spring. If I fully charge up my EV and store it for winter, I’ll probably have a dead and destroyed battery in the spring. It might take a lot more input to get the same output over time. Over the course of the month every little bit adds up.
Vampire drain is real. Depends on many factors but one could just estimate 1-2 kWh a day. That’s probably the best case. If you Use sentry mode a more. Teslas are never really off. The 30 seconds to boot up can be annoying. I’m not sure what the new ones are like. Mine will be 6 years old in December.
 

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,899
Northern NH
How much do these batteries lose their initial charge with time? That’s another loss. Extreme example, but if I fill my tank and store it for the winter, I’ll have a full tank in the spring. If I fully charge up my EV and store it for winter, I’ll probably have a dead and destroyed battery in the spring. It might take a lot more input to get the same output over time. Over the course of the month every little bit adds up.
Most lithium batteries have Battery Management Systems (BMS) on them that open up a relay when the charge gets too low to protect the battery from damage. A lot of the home brew battery packs use no name chi com BMS and some of them skip the Low voltage disconnect. Leaving a tank full of ethanol blended gas over a winter comes at possible cost of damage to the fuel system. It's especially noticeable on small engines and recreational vehicles. The local gas stations sell ethanol free and they sell a lot of it as it does not break down like the corn gas does for long term storage.
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,936
SE PA
How much do these batteries lose their initial charge with time? That’s another loss. Extreme example, but if I fill my tank and store it for the winter, I’ll have a full tank in the spring. If I fully charge up my EV and store it for winter, I’ll probably have a dead and destroyed battery in the spring. It might take a lot more input to get the same output over time. Over the course of the month every little bit adds up.

Not clear what you are asking. Self discharge of a disconnected Lithium battery is very low. But as others have mentioned, loads on the car can pull it down over time. Most EVs lose a small percentage when parked for a few weeks (I've done the experiment). Overall, I trust an EV to 'start' after being parked waaay more than an ICE car, esp in colder weather.

As for the battery losing capacity with age. Yeah, we are al familiar with that happening with phone batteries. But those are engineered to be cheap and last 2 years. EV batteries are engineered to last for 15+ years in service, and have a 8-10 year warranty (against degradation to below 70-80% or so). I have a 7 yo Volt that still has nominal range compared to when it was new.

The thing that 'wears' EV batteries faster are high temps (over 100°F), freezing (below like -10°F), cycling to 0% charge, and cycling to 100% charge. The temps are handled by the onboard system (which keeps the battery at happy temps using the onboard AC). AS a user, the warranty is fine if you abused it... charged it to 100% and ran it down to 0% every time before plugging it in. In practice, most owners keep it between 20-80% charge except on road trips... they expect to get 15+ years easy.

Longer range EVs last longer... bc there are fewer cycles. A good battery can handle 1000 cycles 0-100%. If the car can drive 250 miles on a cycle, that is a 250,000 mile battery, longer than most ICE engines. If you baby it (20-80%) I'd expect it would be good for well over 300-350,000 miles.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
4,085
SE North Carolina
My daily charge is to set to charge to 70%. I can miss a day or two of charging and still be above 25-30%. It will be 6 years old in December and has 27k miles. 100% range works out to be 253 miles but i haven’t actually given it a full charge. I haven’t supercharged is in a long time. I’ll baby it and run it as long as I can.
 

DBoon

Minister of Fire
Jan 14, 2009
1,335
Central NY
I charge my battery to 90% full in the winter and 85% full in the summer, with a once/week recharge overnight Saturday unless I'm going on a road trip.

My Bolt does consume some electricity to keep the battery warm when temperatures get below freezing. If temps were 0 degrees constantly, this might amount to 1.5 kWh/day. At 20 degrees, it seems like about 500 watts a day (or so). If it got very hot (which it doesn't in Central NY) it would do the same to keep the battery cool if temperatures extended above 90 degrees for long periods of time, without cooling down. In the winter I just keep it plugged in (but not charging) and it draws the power (as needed) to keep the battery warm from the wall socket instead of the battery. It's not a big deal. It doesn't consume enough power to change the favorable economics of electric vs. gas.

Forget all the old "wisdom" about batteries from 20 or so years ago - what others said is very true for most well-designed electric cars with good battery management systems (I don't put the original Nissan Leaf in that category) - stay in a reasonable range of charge most of the time and avoid topping off every day/night and the battery will outlast the body of the car. My original Bolt battery had 75,000 miles on it when it was replaced due to the recall, and that showed no capacity degradation during that time (aside from the limitations GM put on it with the software "upgrade").
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
4,085
SE North Carolina
It may not be stove season down here yet, but it is BEV season. 284 Wh/mile city driving. Beats EPA estimate.

C8433CFE-B4DE-413D-AD59-729E9A671CF2.jpeg
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,936
SE PA
Oink. That 's 1/0.284 = 3.5 mi/kWh.

In my local driving I was cruising at 4.8 mi/kWh this week. But ofc, I only have 5 seats, not 7. And my car is 5 years newer?

And ofc my car only weighs 3800 lbs empty, versus yours being >5000.
 
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peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,899
Northern NH
My Rav 4 prime is reading 3.3 miles per KW (its heavy)
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
4,085
SE North Carolina
Oink. That 's 1/0.284 = 3.5 mi/kWh.

In my local driving I was cruising at 4.8 mi/kWh this week. But ofc, I only have 5 seats, not 7. And my car is 5 years newer?

And ofc my car only weighs 3800 lbs empty, versus yours being >5000.
5800 pounds with just me in it;) Over 6000 on the way to school. I want a Tesla to come out with a new smaller than the 3 or bigger than the y model and make it RWD.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
7,252
Downeast Maine
Why are manufacturers making FWD electric vehicles? From a vehicle dynamics and packaging standpoint, it makes way more sense for the non steering axle to get the power. FWD ICE vehicles make sense for packaging, but EVs have comparatively much smaller motors. I bet it's even cheaper to use independent motors than a differential as well. Are FWD EVs being made because that's what people are used to? I feel like dual motor RWD or quad motor AWD is less complex and maybe cheaper than a single motor FWD with some kind of planetary gear drivetrain going through the steering end of the vehicle. Perhaps it saves on R&D or tooling to use an existing FWD ICE platform.
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,936
SE PA
Why are manufacturers making FWD electric vehicles? From a vehicle dynamics and packaging standpoint, it makes way more sense for the non steering axle to get the power. FWD ICE vehicles make sense for packaging, but EVs have comparatively much smaller motors. I bet it's even cheaper to use independent motors than a differential as well. Are FWD EVs being made because that's what people are used to? I feel like dual motor RWD or quad motor AWD is less complex and maybe cheaper than a single motor FWD with some kind of planetary gear drivetrain going through the steering end of the vehicle. Perhaps it saves on R&D or tooling to use an existing FWD ICE platform.

I think the perception is that people prefer FWD to RWD vehicles. And there are a number of power electronics and cooling systems that need to be integrated together with the motor, so FWD makes for a more compact package?