My first 650 miles with a BEV

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EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,511
SE North Carolina
The Model Y is more appealing, I'm a wagon/hatch person and so is my wife. Looks like there's an ATB diff for Tesla drivetrains already. Model 3/Y dual motor long range battery with long travel suspension and good diffs would make for an unstoppable and comfortable year round driver. We haven't been further away from home than Bangor, 95-115 miles depending on which way we go, since November 2018 when we were on the way to our newly bought house. A 300+ mile range is plenty for us.
I don’t know what’s around the the super charger in Brewer but if the my Battery is below 40% I can charge at 100 kw. a(that’s like 300 miles an hour charge rate for me) And that’s on a 150 kw charger on old battery tech.

My point is long range may be a selling point but it really shouldn’t be as big of a factor in the buying decision. 10-15 minutes on the charger and you would have enough range to get back home.

If batteries start limiting production we will see Tesla sell 50-60 kWh batteries in the M3 just to keep the production lines moving.

I’d totally take beefed up MY but I’d make sure it gets some extra battery protection under there.

What you don’t trust traction control??? ;)
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
7,085
Downeast Maine
I don’t know what’s around the the super charger in Brewer but if the my Battery is below 40% I can charge at 100 kw. a(that’s like 300 miles an hour charge rate for me) And that’s on a 150 kw charger on old battery tech.

My point is long range may be a selling point but it really shouldn’t be as big of a factor in the buying decision. 10-15 minutes on the charger and you would have enough range to get back home.

If batteries start limiting production we will see Tesla sell 50-60 kWh batteries in the M3 just to keep the production lines moving.

I’d totally take beefed up MY but I’d make sure it gets some extra battery protection under there.

What you don’t trust traction control??? ;)
I think traction control is great, especially on wet pavement. That's about the only situation I really like having it. Stability control and traction control not only ruin the fun, but they can really work against you driving in the snow. At least it does on most cars I've driven in the snow.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,511
SE North Carolina
I think traction control is great, especially on wet pavement. That's about the only situation I really like having it. Stability control and traction control not only ruin the fun, but they can really work against you driving in the snow. At least it does on most cars I've driven in the snow.
I want to see a Tesla with manual locking hubs and chains! ;)
 
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peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,679
Northern NH
I have been waiting for integrated electric hub drives to make it to the market where the electric motor generator brake is all integrated into a wheel assembly. No need for diffs and its makes the body design far simpler. Then its just a matter of software for traction control
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
7,085
Downeast Maine
I want to see a Tesla with manual locking hubs and chains! ;)
I'm not so old that I only like manual hubs! Auto hubs are fine, but I'll still be keeping chains in the trunk 😂🤣 Peakbagger is right, hub motors need to happen. I get that they will significantly increase unsprung weight, but I don't think it will be so bad.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,511
SE North Carolina
I have been waiting for integrated electric hub drives to make it to the market where the electric motor generator brake is all integrated into a wheel assembly. No need for diffs and its makes the body design far simpler. Then its just a matter of software for traction control
They are here just not super popular yet.

 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,511
SE North Carolina
First full moth electric bill came. No heatpump or AC on this bill. I compared to my lowest usage bill in the last 12 months. Probably the best quantitative data I can get. Looks like my 600 miles a month increased my usage by 11.2 kWh a day. So 330kwh/600 miles gives me. 550 whr /per mile. Or 60$ per 1k miles at 0.11$ per kwh. Right in line with my estimate. I didn’t take into account my free supercharging that may reduce my mileage by 30%, but not change my cost. Since I don’t pay I really don’t have a way to track my supercharging other than to write it down. Which in haven’t. I’ll track my mileage better this cycle. But note the is not the epa rated mileage of 330whr/mile.

So compared to my van at 16 mpg and gas at 3.90$ and. 100$ Oil change every 5000 miles. I am saving 200$ per 1000. Enough to cover registration an insurance. So I probably break even. It’s good to have data. I’ve satisfied my curiosity my estimates were close enough.

Now I just need to figure out how long my front axels will last and if I should add the adjustable suspension parts. Probably will. Axels are worn and vibrate under load at normal height. Seems silly to get less than 25k out of CV joints. But hey maybe some day they will fix it on new models. Just read the selling used Teslas from Tesla at more than the original sale price. Such is the market. https://insideevs.com/news/582370/used-tesla-prices-surge/amp/

75EF72A7-4893-4DD1-966B-3E74DA9128D9.png 7D7F9740-06EA-4D78-AEA5-C8015099CC60.png
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,769
SE PA
Doesn't the car track mi/kWh or Wh/mi?? My 7 year old Volt does.

Also, given the seasonal variation in this number, you would need a year of data.

I honestly think that the **rated** average Wh/mi is probably more accurate than you monthly bill estimate method.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,511
SE North Carolina
Doesn't the car track mi/kWh or Wh/mi?? My 7 year old Volt does.

Also, given the seasonal variation in this number, you would need a year of data.

I honestly think that the **rated** average Wh/mi is probably more accurate than you monthly bill estimate method.
It does but vampire drain is real. 1-3 kWh a day. There is no way my rates 350 whr /mile is real. Range (battery percent) drop way faster than miles driven or kWh used. Charging efficiency should matter.

I don’t know how it accounts for power consumption with the car off and the AC and heat on. I could pay for an app that has access to all the data. I don’t really care that much. 1000 kWh for an all electric house with a family of 7. Basically working from home. With a BEV. I’m ok with that.

If I cared I’d clamp on one the electrical use monitors to the circuit. Remember the power wall is a WiFi hub that’s always on I’d like to know what it draws 24/7.

My whole point is that the Tesla calculation Whr /mile do not represent actual consumption measures by the meter.
 
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woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,769
SE PA
With all due respect, you're a newb. The sticker rated usage is consistent with user reports overall, and they are not all crazy hypermilers. If you are not getting that, its worth figuring out why. The biggies would be tire selection, tire pressure, and weather. Charging eff should be >90% on 240V.

FYI I am no Tesla expert, but every EV I have ever seen has a non-linear mapping of apparent state of charge and actual state of charge. Like when gas-gauges say 'E' and there is still gas in the tank. They want you to have some margin if you turn around at 50% energy remaining, etc. Super annoying.

I guess I am saying it is very hard to actually estimate this without direct measurements. I would trust the car on its Wh/mi (which includes accessories). I too tried to estimate vampire drain in my LEAF back in the day (looking at SoC after parking it for a week). I'd trust the Tesla fora on vampire loads.

I would take the cars stated: Wh/mi*miles*1.1 (for charging) + nominal vampire load*days
 
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peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,679
Northern NH
My plug in hybrid Toyota battery mapping is right on as there is always a tank of gas backing it up. It does look at prior usage cycles and adjusts the watts/mile readout and range estimate. If I do a couple of extended highway runs and drain down the battery the range drops as the efficiency is lower at highway speeds. If I do a lot of 40 MPH with minimal stops driving the range goes up. Cold weather also drops the range due to cab heat which is primarily heat pump technology. Folks trying to boost electric range adopt some unusual techniques like switching to hybrid mode (a mix of gas and battery) when going up hills or running at highway speeds, then switching back to electric around town. On a long trip that exceeds the battery range (40 to 45 miles) I usually start out in hybrid and then use the electric mode when I am near the destination where I am driving a lower speeds.

On the other hand, the mapping of the gas tank is decidedly biased. It is set up to give an initial range and then bias the range to convince the owner to fill up the tank well before its anywhere near empty. There are also low gas warnings based on that biased range. Various estimates are that is at least 2 gallons in the tank at the reported empty point. There is typically a technical reason for keeping the tank full as drawing it down carries sediment into the fuel filters and most fuel injection systems recirculate most of the fuel back to the tank to keep the fuel rail cool. The one place where Toyota appears to use the full tank volume is advertising the expected fuel range, they claim a combined 600 miles and I suspect that they use every drop left in the tank to come up with that number. The estimated combined range when the battery is fully charged and the fuel tank is full usually adds up to somewhere in the range of 550.
 
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woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,769
SE PA
Fair, the two BEVs I had had non-linear mappings of SoC on the dash, but my plug-in seems pretty linear. Hard for me to be sure, bc most of the round-trips I do, where I could gauge SoC change outbound and return ALSO have a significant topographical change. Work is 500' lower elevation than Home, and the first leg is like 40% of trip energy, while the return is 60%.

Also: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-x-average-wh-mile-tracker.68940/
 
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EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,511
SE North Carolina
First trip to the gas station today in 3 months. Car didn’t NEED it but the chainsaw deserved fresh gas so I filled it up. ( gas light was on but the 5 gallons of old gas would have got me by another 2 months).
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,511
SE North Carolina
Unintended consequence of a stupid fast BEV…

My posterior accelerometer has been completely recalibrated to values that it has never before experienced. I am renaming the the right hand pedal in my Odessey as the “forward” pedal. My re-scaled accelerometer doesn’t detect much if any acceleration even with excessive forward pedal application;)
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
6,165
Long Island NY
or the Odessey seats are softer... ;p
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
7,085
Downeast Maine
Unintended consequence of a stupid fast BEV…

My posterior accelerometer has been completely recalibrated to values that it has never before experienced. I am renaming the the right hand pedal in my Odessey as the “forward” pedal. My re-scaled accelerometer doesn’t detect much if any acceleration even with excessive forward pedal application;)
This also happens after you ride bikes for a while. I haven't been on anything fast since 2018, so I'm sure even the current crop of top engine choice sedans would feel like race cars. Everything is fast these days, but your family hauler is certainly another level of fast.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,511
SE North Carolina
2200 mile update…..

Second verse is a lot like the first. It’s warmer out. AC is less power hungry than heat. No drama other drama. Decided to get a 3rd party warranty. It’s worked out well for me on my van. The fact that they tent to eat drive shafts made my decision easier.

Total ICE miles we have driven since February 1st is less than 300. I really want to try FSD. It’s not available yet. I don’t have the cameras required nor do I have the correct computers. Supposedly those upgrades will be installed for free sometime In the future when parts are available ….. I won’t hold my breath.

I started to look at rate time billing. Peak power is 0.07, off peak is 0.06 and there is a $5.45 per Kw peak demand charge based on your highest 15 minute average. Current standard price is 0.106. I’m guessing that cooking during the summer would put my peak demand about 3 -5 kw. So I don’t think I would save much. My math says half my bill could be off peak if I really tried HARD. So I could save 35% call it 35$ But add another 20 for peak demand charge. It’s less than 20$ difference. I’ll find another way to save that because I’m pretty sure if my resistive strips kicked on during peak times for a defrost cycle I’d probably not even break even.

If they offer rate time billing for my car charger only I could see that.
 
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Isaac Carlson

Minister of Fire
Nov 19, 2012
919
NW Wisconsin
Cars were built cheap before ev's, what makes you think they will get better? An ev would be nice if it didn't cost an arm and a leg and if you actually owned all of it, not just the tires. I never know how many miles I will put on in a day and don't have time to charge for an hour or replace expensive batteries. There is nothing green about any of this, it's just money.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
96,219
South Puget Sound, WA
Some cars were built cheaply and some cars were built well, the same story 50 yrs ago as it is today. There is nothing green about building cars that end up in the wrecking yard in 10 yrs. There is nothing green about spewing tons of carbon into the atmosphere, it's just habit and what we've become accustomed to. That is changing, it has to. If one sleeps regularly once a day, one has the time to charge a vehicle every night.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,511
SE North Carolina
Cars were built cheap before ev's, what makes you think they will get better? An ev would be nice if it didn't cost an arm and a leg and if you actually owned all of it, not just the tires. I never know how many miles I will put on in a day and don't have time to charge for an hour or replace expensive batteries. There is nothing green about any of this, it's just money.
Prices will come/are coming down. This technology that is 5+ years or on the market and utilizes existing manufacturing and assembly infrastructure. The average auto is not on the road more than 10 years I believe. They are built and engineered to a price point in general.

For Tesla to complete and invest in new infrastructure they had to complete in a high margin market so luxury market made sense. I don’t think they have plans to enter the 20-30k price point anytime soon. Maybe there could be a model 3 variant utilizing old tech on and inker production line but that really doesn’t fit their on the fly update philosophy.

Some people will spend more money to be greener. Studies have been done electric vehicles have a smaller carbon footprint for the the product lifecycle than ICE.

We just took a 420 mile road trip, first one as a family of 7 and I can say with out hesitation we will not be an all EV family anytime soon. My next vehicle purchase will be a 1 ton van. Unless the ford transit electric gets AWD and an RV towing range of 250 miles. I don’t see much volume for those specs.
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
7,085
Downeast Maine
Prices will come/are coming down. This technology that is 5+ years or on the market and utilizes existing manufacturing and assembly infrastructure. The average auto is not on the road more than 10 years I believe. They are built and engineered to a price point in general.

For Tesla to complete and invest in new infrastructure they had to complete in a high margin market so luxury market made sense. I don’t think they have plans to enter the 20-30k price point anytime soon. Maybe there could be a model 3 variant utilizing old tech on and inker production line but that really doesn’t fit their on the fly update philosophy.

Some people will spend more money to be greener. Studies have been done electric vehicles have a smaller carbon footprint for the the product lifecycle than ICE.

We just took a 420 mile road trip, first one as a family of 7 and I can say with out hesitation we will not be an all EV family anytime soon. My next vehicle purchase will be a 1 ton van. Unless the ford transit electric gets AWD and an RV towing range of 250 miles. I don’t see much volume for those specs.
I wonder how a "re-powered" vehicle compares on carbon emissions. I can't imagine it's more friendly to buy a new EV rather than convert an old ICE car.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,511
SE North Carolina
I wonder how a "re-powered" vehicle compares on carbon emissions. I can't imagine it's more friendly to buy a new EV rather than convert an old ICE car.
That option is probably accessible to less than 1%. The cost replace the drivetrain could be put towards a new EV with a warranty and probably better efficiency.
I still like the idea of dropping new battery tech in a BEV. To me that’s going to be this decades version of re-powering. Add a small off grid solar charger with 10-20 kWh storage would reduce carbon footprint even further.
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,769
SE PA
I wonder how a "re-powered" vehicle compares on carbon emissions. I can't imagine it's more friendly to buy a new EV rather than convert an old ICE car.
Not exactly what you said... but those ICE cars will find use.

I suspect that many multi-car families will hold onto their ICE cars for a long time, for particular applications, but not putting a lot of miles on them. IOW, on a larger scale, those ICE vehicles will be useful at the margins to fill in the things BEVs don't do well (towing, large cargo, off road).

If the EV transition ends up hurting the resale of used ICE vehicles (esp if good BEVs get cheap), you will see a lot of people holding onto them like museum pieces... but their emissions will be low.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,511
SE North Carolina
Not exactly what you said... but those ICE cars will find use.

I suspect that many multi-car families will hold onto their ICE cars for a long time, for particular applications, but not putting a lot of miles on them. IOW, on a larger scale, those ICE vehicles will be useful at the margins to fill in the things BEVs don't do well (towing, large cargo, off road).

If the EV transition ends up hurting the resale of used ICE vehicles (esp if good BEVs get cheap), you will see a lot of people holding onto them like museum pieces... but their emissions will be low.
A local company was shipping them to Ukraine before the war. I can see developing and recovering economies being a market for ICE cars. Current fuel costs probably won’t make it as profitable. But as we get out the current supply chain constraints we will see a lot of new ICE vehicles produced. It will be a race for a while to make ICE or BEVs.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
96,219
South Puget Sound, WA
I suspect that many multi-car families will hold onto their ICE cars for a long time, for particular applications, but not putting a lot of miles on them. IOW, on a larger scale, those ICE vehicles will be useful at the margins to fill in the things BEVs don't do well (towing, large cargo, off road).
That is where we have been for the past 9 yrs. Our current ICE vehicle now is a 2018 Dodge Grand Caravan that can haul stuff, be a camper, or carry 7 passengers. It gets less than 3000 miles put on it a year.
 
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