My first 650 miles with a BEV

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EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,518
SE North Carolina
Flat floor from foot well to rear of car would be my guess. More cabin volume with FWD. so it’s packaging thing. Like it was with ICE cars. Electric motor still stakes up some space. I’ve never liked FWD. a differential is cheap compared to another motor. Rear floor steps up on third row of teslas to accommodate rear drive unit.

As someone who grew up with Lamborghini Countach posters on my wall I’m rear wheel biased. I think tire wear is better on RWD.

Cooling is just running lines. So it’s just some extra hose. That adds up for a year’s production though.
 
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stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
6,199
Long Island NY
Front wheel drive is simply safer when wintry precipitation is on the road.
 
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EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,518
SE North Carolina
Front wheel drive is simply safer when wintry precipitation is on the road.
True but I don’t think that is a huge factor. But with a big heavy battery getting good weight distribution for a RWD BEV would be possible. I’m just not a big enough Tesla fan I guess. Ford has their EV motor available as a crate motor. It won’t be long until your favorite 60 or 70s muscle cars start showing up swapped to Electric drive. 100 miles of range would be plenty.
 
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stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
6,199
Long Island NY
Maybe. I do think that it is intrinsically safer to have front wheel drive. The problem is that WHEN traction is compromised, I much rather drive a front wheel drive than a rear wheel drive. Even if the chances for such issue are lower because of the weight of the car.

(And I don't have a favorite muscle car. I drive an abomination - but it cost me ten grand new, gets me 40+ mpg, and gets me where I need to be.)
 
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EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,518
SE North Carolina
Maybe. I do think that it is intrinsically safer to have front wheel drive. The problem is that WHEN traction is compromised, I much rather drive a front wheel drive than a rear wheel drive. Even if the chances for such issue are lower because of the weight of the car.

(And I don't have a favorite muscle car. I drive an abomination - but it cost me ten grand new, gets me 40+ mpg, and gets me where I need to be.)
I had posters and dreams now all I have is a much more educated brain that prioritizes reality and safety!
 
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tlc1976

Minister of Fire
Oct 7, 2012
1,139
Northwest Lower Michigan
With an EV you can just as easily put the motor in the rear, no need for a driveshaft tunnel.

FWD is more predictable when it’s slippery out. It pulls you straight. The EV battery weight can balance the car as good as the engineer wants. RWD can spin out if you’re not careful, pulling out onto the highway, going up a slippery hill. IMO the only thing RWD is good for is racing and towing.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
7,086
Downeast Maine
Front wheel drive is simply safer when wintry precipitation is on the road.
No, it's no safer, that's all perception. In most FWD vehicles there is more mass on the driven wheels, which means more traction. That's it. FWD doesn't steer or stop any better in slippery conditions, simply accelerates easier. RWD is dynamically superior in basically every way, aside from possibly a long hood on an ICE RWD.

A FWD car will tend to understeer through a turn if you go too fast, but RWD cars tend to oversteer which gives the perception that they are less safe. I would say barreling through the right hand guard rail isn't much different than hitting the one on the left.

Friction used for accelerating can't be used for turning, so an FWD car will understeer at comparatively lower speeds than a RWD car will give up traction and oversteer. Furthermore FWD cars can get really squirrely in traction adverse situations and without torque vectoring differentials, really slick traction and stability management, or a mechanical diff and good driver they can get into just as much trouble as RWD. After having been to a lot of performance driving events I can say that RWD is MUCH easier to drive than FWD.

Friction used for turning can't be used for accelerating or braking, same goes for any of the three. FWD is entirely compromised in this because the front wheels have to Steer, accelerate, and do 70% of the braking. This is why high end AWD cars with torque vectoring (think STI, EVO, Lamborghini, Audi, etc.) don't send any power to the front unless there is slip.
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
6,199
Long Island NY
More mass on the driven wheels = more friction = safer.

I am not sure I agree with "friction used for turning can't be used for ...".
More friction means less chance of loosing traction (defined not necessarily as only along the driving vector, as you seem to do).

Without (rolling) friction, there is no traction OR steering.
 
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peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,681
Northern NH
That is the interesting part with BEVs, the best designs are going to start with a clean sheet of paper. My guess is its still easier to integrate steering drive and propulsion into one module that can be fit in multiple platforms and that favors front drive. Most designs seem to favor thin flat battery trays under the floor to increase surface area to improve cooling. As I mentioned previously hub drive will make it more interesting as that changes things even more.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,518
SE North Carolina
More mass on the driven wheels = more friction = safer.

I am not sure I agree with "friction used for turning can't be used for ...".
More friction means less chance of loosing traction (defined not necessarily as only along the driving vector, as you seem to do).

Without (rolling) friction, there is no traction OR steering.
Max static (not rolling) frictional force is what accelerates the car. It changes it’s speed or direction or both. So I would agree that friction used for straight line acceleration or breaking can’t be used for turning. The force vector is only so big but can change its direction. Now we could get into weight shift under breaking.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,518
SE North Carolina
Thread is now talking FWD vs RWD it’s just a matter of time before we are drifting;)
 
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stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
6,199
Long Island NY
Max static (not rolling) frictional force is what accelerates the car. It changes it’s speed or direction or both. So I would agree that friction used for straight line acceleration or breaking can’t be used for turning. The force vector is only so big but can change its direction. Now we could get into weight shift under breaking.
I agree I made a mistake.
Regardless, the force vector is only so big, so increasing its size is what makes it capable of doing more. Hence FWD (more weight on the driven wheels) is safer.
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
7,086
Downeast Maine
More mass on the driven wheels = more friction = safer.

I am not sure I agree with "friction used for turning can't be used for ...".
More friction means less chance of loosing traction (defined not necessarily as only along the driving vector, as you seem to do).

Without (rolling) friction, there is no traction OR steering.
More friction does not equal safer. Most RWD cars have equal mass on the driven and steering tires. EVs can put that mass just about anywhere, no need to use FWD to increase front traction.

Better writers than me can explain tire friction.
Here's my "short" version learned from first hand experience and going to driving instruction. The traction the tires can generate is finite. In any car the front tires are being tasked with both steering and accelerating and decelerating in a turn. There is only so much friction available for either task, and exceeding the limit in steering, braking, or accelerating is how you end up with over/under steer events. Again, FWD traction benefits are only significant for accelerating from a dead stop in slippery conditions. There is no benefit to steering or braking. See all the AWD/4x4 vehicles stuck in the ditch when it snows. They may have superior acceleration ability in the snow, but no benefit to steering or braking. In dry conditions RWD has superior acceleration dynamics after 60' as the weight transfers to the rear of the vehicle. Obviously AWD is the best in either dry or slick conditions as they have at least one driven wheel at either end, but the returns are diminishing as speed increases. As the vehicle speed increases weight will inherently transfer to the rear end. You can get a FWD car to oversteer quite easily in some cases by simply lifting of the throttle very aggressively before entering a corner. Opposite of how you would do it in a RWD car, but you can also get a RWD car to understeer going too hot into a corner if you are off throttle.
 

stoveliker

Minister of Fire
Nov 17, 2019
6,199
Long Island NY
@SpaceBus
The case of an inverted pendulum may be illuminating - it is *inherently* unstable. Pushing mass from the rear is too, needing friction to stay on course more than pulling it from the front.

We appear to disagree. Let's shake hands and stay happy.
The important point is we both agree with the value of and need for EVs.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,518
SE North Carolina
Passed 4000 miles last week. Instead of changing the oil I’ll give you my my honest thoughts. The X was a hand-me-down gift from my bother in-law. We are very fortunate. I looked the horse in the mouth. 1500$ for tires, 700$ for a charger and 650$ to register. I’m not saving any money in the next 5 years compared to if I have driven my minivan. What it did was push of the purchase of a vehicle. So yes it’s saved me quite a bit. I until I am forced to replace the mini van.

Anyone thinking about an EV as an additional vehicle does not need to worry about the EV range. We have have not road tripped in it (it won’t fit us). The most it’s ever driven in a day was 65 miles. I could easily get by with anything that has 100 miles range. Those products don’t exist. I expect as production increases and that outpaces battery availability we may see that some models sold with smaller ranges.

Tesla pushed a lot of new ideas and concepts but the the actual execution could have been/can be better. No one would put up with Tesla’s short comings in any product offered by a mainstream auto manufacturer. My big screen goes black 5-10 minutes per week of driving. No AC no maps no rear camera no music no turn signal audio. It’s integration with iPhones (at least on my MCU1) is terrible. Voice commands just don’t work ever. But Tesla gets a pass. They have revolutionized the auto industry. All parts I argue. And it is not a net benefit to the customer. They will evolve as a carmaker but not don’t see quality and reliability as future selling points. Maybe one could hope. I see them as a futuristic tech company more focused on tomorrows products and not on making today’s better. 6 years ago my model X was sold promising self driving tech that has not materialized. Sure it’s gotten better but they haven’t upgraded any hardware on my model X.

I am delaying maintenance because the nearest service center is 2.5 hours away. I’m not sure they could guarantee I would be able to get the work done and home in the same day.

At the end of the day the only Tesla I could justify from a cost perspective is the RWD model 3. But after driving my first performance car ever part of me would really want the performance version. I don’t think the next EV I buy with my money will be a Tesla. Unless they have a new van that seats 7+ with lots of cargo room and can tow a 4000# trailer 250 miles between charging. The value just isn’t there. I won’t ever spend 200$ a month on self driving. Or pay 12k$ upfront.

Number one reason to buy Tesla is you need to replace an ICE and the Tesla’s charging network is the best there is. full stop.

Only reason to buy a model X is….. uh the doors?? I guess. It’s fun. Lots of fun. So I guess there is that.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
96,254
South Puget Sound, WA
Sounds like towing in a big van will not happen. This really kills range.

We drive the Volt pretty much like you do, mostly for local driving. Its 65mile summer EV range covers almost all our needs. The car is a pleasure to take on a trip, but we haven't done a long one since the pandemic. The longest single drive I have done on it was about 600 miles with a stop for gas.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
96,254
South Puget Sound, WA
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EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,518
SE North Carolina

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
7,681
Northern NH
I remember the dawn of the PC era, computers were progressing so rapidly that a two year old computer was almost unusable. I think we are on the same steep curve with EV batteries.
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,773
SE PA
I remember the dawn of the PC era, computers were progressing so rapidly that a two year old computer was almost unusable. I think we are on the same steep curve with EV batteries.
I think we are in a state of rapid progress with EVs, but things will be a little bit more drawn out.

This is why I decided to do a 3 year lease on a not-too-expensive EV. The resale could get creamed by a big tech advance, or be strong if everyone wants a used EV. With a lease I get a guaranteed trade-in (residual) value. If the car is worth a lot less than that, I can hand the dealer back the keys and they eat the difference. If the car is worth more, I can buy it at that price and resell it.

Either way, if I am excited by the new and shiny EV offerings in 2025, I will not feel 'stuck' in old vehicle.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,518
SE North Carolina
I think we are in a state of rapid progress with EVs, but things will be a little bit more drawn out.

This is why I decided to do a 3 year lease on a not-too-expensive EV. The resale could get creamed by a big tech advance, or be strong if everyone wants a used EV. With a lease I get a guaranteed trade-in (residual) value. If the car is worth a lot less than that, I can hand the dealer back the keys and they eat the difference. If the car is worth more, I can buy it at that price and resell it.

Either way, if I am excited by the new and shiny EV offerings in 2025, I will not feel 'stuck' in old vehicle.
The car subscription service will be an interesting business venture to watch why tie yourself in to a 3 year lease when you can get it by the month(I think there was a minimum of like 4 or 6 months).
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
3,518
SE North Carolina
I’m planning our first out of town trip. For the life of me I can’t find a any tools that will plan a round trip and minimize charging time.

It will be 190 miles one way. No charging at destination. EPA range is 254 on a full charge. There is a super charger 80 miles from destination. So I’m left to do the math to figure out how much charge I want to leave that charger with. Just seems something this common. Would be a feature of all the navigation systems. “Will this be a round trip?” Check yes. How many miles will you be driving at the destination before your return trip? Done!

Maybe I’m missing something? I hope so.
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,773
SE PA
I’m planning our first out of town trip. For the life of me I can’t find a any tools that will plan a round trip and minimize charging time.

It will be 190 miles one way. No charging at destination. EPA range is 254 on a full charge. There is a super charger 80 miles from destination. So I’m left to do the math to figure out how much charge I want to leave that charger with. Just seems something this common. Would be a feature of all the navigation systems. “Will this be a round trip?” Check yes. How many miles will you be driving at the destination before your return trip? Done!

Maybe I’m missing something? I hope so.

ABRP is what everyone uses. The free version is great. The pay version takes things like weather into account. Overkill IMO.


Download the app, running it in a phone browser sucks.

I think the Tesla has that all built in to the infotainment (never played with a Tesla). Don't know if there is an app equivalent.

The Non-Tesla EVs in car navs do this too, badly. Folks mostly use ABRP, and port it with CarPlay or AA to the screen.

In a Tesla, you don't have Carplay or AA, and need to use the in car nav to do this. I think.