My new stainless liner has issues. Are they worth fighting over?

[gaf]

Got a new Forever Flex stainless steel liner installed in my 35 year old, exterior brick chimney with clay liner. They did not remove the old clay liner. I didn't like the way they jammed, twisted, pushed and forced it into the chimney. It got stuck on a bit of clay liner that was sticking out and they tore the new stainless liner. They pulled that out, whacked some of the clay liner with a tool (half way down the chimney), spliced the stainless liner and put it back in. Still a snug fit. Then, because I insisted based on things I had read here, I got them to pour insulation in around it. They said, "nah, ya don't need insulation" but I doubted them. Still, because of the snug fit I don't think the insulation is REALLY around a lot of the liner in spots. Anyway, I had a level two chimney inspection done a year later and that guy gave me the PDF report with pictures that I have attached here. He wants me to do $8,500 in rework. I can't tell if he is being just way over-cautious or trying to soak me for my money or has a genuine point about the safety of the chimney. So, I wonder if you would be kind enough to look at his attached report (with names removed) and let me know what you think? I really hate fighting with contractors so I'd be happy to "do nothing" but I do want to be safe and have my Endeavor Lopi wood stove work well.

Thoughts? Pictures are in the report PDF.

 

[bholler]

They are without a doubt correct. Their price sounds on the high side but I don't know all the details

 

[BigJ273]

In my opinion, the second they ripped your liner, they should have stopped and ordered a new one. I've always heard a splice is supposed to be at the top, if needed, not in the middle or bottom. My first call would be to them, and request they make some attempt to rectify the problems THEY caused. While I've heard people say "you don't have to insulate" the liner, I've never heard good things from people who don't. Just my two cents.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Those liners cant be forced in if theres not enough room , they are pretty flimsy IMO. Also cant be insulated well if theres no decent gap between the clay liner and the SS. You may have been better off with the next size smaller liner. Sub par work by the first contractor.

 

[Ludlow]

File a lawsuit against first contractor.

 

[Jackfre]

Curious what you have cost wise in the original install. Given the issue today, I think you should have called for the LII upon completion of the liner, but that is kinda piling on. Does your chimney have an offset or is it a straight shot? I ask because I would rather use a smooth walled pipe than flex. You should check your states laws concerning contractors and time lines for responsibility. From the sound of the original install and their methods they may not even still be in business.
A couple years ago when we remodeled the house we opened the floor plan up and tore down the two story stone fireplace and chimney. It had an old Dura-Vent, Dura-liner system installed. I represented Dura-Vent in New England back when that product was introduced in the late 80's. There was a 5' section of oval flex through the fireplace damper and then round up the flue. It was in excellent condition and is still doing a good job in its new home. Pre-insulated and pretty easy to handle. $8500 seems high, but in todays world, what doesn't? It takes a lot to run a small business.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

File a lawsuit against first contractor.

To the OP, You have the quote from the inspection saying install is wrong. I’d ask for your money back from the installer. After they say no, I’d let them know you plan on taking this issue further. Personally, I would not let them “fix” anything with the install at this point. They’re already proved to be shotty at their trade. Sadly,there are a fair amount of bad chimney guys out there. I felt I was burned by one once so I know the feeling.
The pro that did your inspection sounds to be on the level. Give that person your business to do the job correctly and well.

 

[bholler]

Curious what you have cost wise in the original install. Given the issue today, I think you should have called for the LII upon completion of the liner, but that is kinda piling on. Does your chimney have an offset or is it a straight shot? I ask because I would rather use a smooth walled pipe than flex. You should check your states laws concerning contractors and time lines for responsibility. From the sound of the original install and their methods they may not even still be in business.
A couple years ago when we remodeled the house we opened the floor plan up and tore down the two story stone fireplace and chimney. It had an old Dura-Vent, Dura-liner system installed. I represented Dura-Vent in New England back when that product was introduced in the late 80's. There was a 5' section of oval flex through the fireplace damper and then round up the flue. It was in excellent condition and is still doing a good job in its new home. Pre-insulated and pretty easy to handle. $8500 seems high, but in todays world, what doesn't? It takes a lot to run a small business.

Why not insulated heavywall flex? It is still smooth it's easier to install and easily handles offsets

 

[spudman99]

I am also in SE PA and recently installed my own liner and insert. I probably know the company that did your install but that is not for public disclosure at this time. Several local dealers did not recommend insulation around my proposed liner and said in this part of the Mid-Atlantic it is not common. I disregarded their recommendation (although I was tempted as they are the pro's and I am not). Paid just under $900 for a Forever Flex Hybrid 30' liner plus insulation kit. I broke out my own clay tiles with my own fabricated tools at a cost of under $50. Took me 1 full Saturday to break out the 30' clay and remove debris from inside. Less than 1 hour to install the new liner in the now wide open chimney which brought everything into code clearances. If handy you can do it yourself in a weekend with the proper tools.

As a non-sweep, I would have figured about $2k to maybe $2.5k for the materials and labor to remove old, break out clay and drop in new liner.

It also looks as if the chimney top plate (for the liner) is not tight to the crown? Is that how they installed it or is it lifted just for this inspection?

 

[Welderman85]

I kinda almost had the same situation. I had a few people look and quote me on installing my little insert. It was hard to find people that make it to my area ,but the few that came said a few different things that didn't seem correct. Thanks to the great help I received from this site I installed it and it wasn't bad. I would get my money back and have the guy that did the inspection fix it. I wouldn't trust that liner of any of the work the previous installer did.

 

[Jackfre]

BHoller, my Top Hat is off to you. I have a great deal of experience in venting products. Sadly, that experience is dated. I am unfamiliar with your suggested product but will check it out. I will say that while easier to install, I just don’t like flex liners.

 

[bholler]

BHoller, my Top Hat is off to you. I have a great deal of experience in venting products. Sadly, that experience is dated. I am unfamiliar with your suggested product but will check it out. I will say that while easier to install, I just don’t like flex liners.

My suggested product has been around for well over 30 years. Much longer than the lightwall stuff. And I actually find it more durable than rigid

 

[Ludlow]

Whew. I have done a couple liners. One was on a skyscraper of a chimney on a Cape Cod. I was perched on a fully extended ladder and another was feeding the liner from the roof of the back dormer up into the sky and back down to me. It is hard work and for a company to pay people to do that is naturally going to be expensive. It isnt fair to compare the savings if you got the cajones to do it yourself. Companies have payroll and taxes and insurance and callbacks to pay for. If you can do it yourself then good. It doesnt make the job any less valuable. Consider yourself a real man. But let me say that if you pay a company to do it, then it damned well better be done right! no excuses.

 

[bholler]

I am also in SE PA and recently installed my own liner and insert. I probably know the company that did your install but that is not for public disclosure at this time. Several local dealers did not recommend insulation around my proposed liner and said in this part of the Mid-Atlantic it is not common. I disregarded their recommendation (although I was tempted as they are the pro's and I am not). Paid just under $900 for a Forever Flex Hybrid 30' liner plus insulation kit. I broke out my own clay tiles with my own fabricated tools at a cost of under $50. Took me 1 full Saturday to break out the 30' clay and remove debris from inside. Less than 1 hour to install the new liner in the now wide open chimney which brought everything into code clearances. If handy you can do it yourself in a weekend with the proper tools.

As a non-sweep, I would have figured about $2k to maybe $2.5k for the materials and labor to remove old, break out clay and drop in new liner.

It also looks as if the chimney top plate (for the liner) is not tight to the crown? Is that how they installed it or is it lifted just for this inspection?

Your pricing is a little low but not far off at all. And btw I was impressed by what you did as a novice at it. Well done

 

[gaf]

*sigh* I was hoping you were going to tell me the inspector was being overly paranoid.

Just to play devil's advocate (anticipating what the original installer will say), the clay tile chimney was built in 1985 specifically for a wood stove and operated apparently adequately all that time. When I bought the Lopi and the guy said he could install a liner inside the clay tile for $800 I figured I was double-safe. I still had the clay liner (albeit with a bit knocked out of it) and now the stainless liner and it is an outside chimney that doesn't pass through the house (though it is attached and I don't know for absolutely certain what is between the liner and the first bit of combustible material. Up until now I've trusted my Amish builder that it was all fine in that respect.

How come my old clay liner was deemed safe in 1985 but in 2019 -- even with the addition of the stainless liner -- it isn't safe anymore?

(Again...devil's advocate.)

 

[gaf]

In my opinion, the second they ripped your liner, they should have stopped and ordered a new one.

To be fair, even the L2 inspector says in the report that "using a coupler to join multiple sections of liner is allowed" though he doesn't like the damage done in the area of the coupler. So, I guess he's saying it is "ok" to use the coupler but not if you do it wrong!

 

[Ludlow]

Was it clean as new when the liner was put in? I see what you are saying. Is the crushed part of the liner well above where the chimney touches the house?

 

[gaf]

I must say the guy gave me the willies standing up there struggling with that unwieldy liner with no strap, no scaffolding, nothing. Just him and empty space. He was a nice guy, too. I didn't want to find him splattered on my walkway!

 

[gaf]

Curious what you have cost wise in the original install.

Cost for the liner with install:
KST630 6"X30 FT. TEE LINER KIT $816.00
Plus insulation for $240 (he forgot to charge me for labor and told me so later)
There is another charge for installation for $725 I'm guessing that was the liner install but might have been the stove itself?
Repointing the chimney (different guy) and installing a new crown of "white portland cement" cost me another $4,390

Now I'm supposed to pay another $8,600 minus the trivial amount I expect to get back from the first guy? Oy vey. I'm glad I don't burn wood to save money!

 

[gaf]

Was it clean as new when the liner was put in? I see what you are saying. Is the crushed part of the liner well above where the chimney touches the house?

They brushed it before putting in the liner, so it was clean. I think part of the crushed bit is near the top but the damage around the splice is like halfway down.

 

[gaf]

Oh, interesting. I just found my previous questions on here back in December, 2018. Quoting myself from back then,

"I just talked to the stove dealer (who also does the installs) and he said he didn't think the pre-insulated liners would fit in the existing terra cotta, but he could do a pour-in liner if I wanted to for an additional $400. He felt it was not necessary, though, as the Lopi people specify that the non-insulated liner is perfectly fine. and sell that for their stoves. He's fine either way but is trying not to waste my money, which I appreciate. Given that the terra cotta is good, the Forever Flex provides a "belt and suspenders" level of safety. I guess adding the pour-in insulation would be belt, suspenders and duct tape level... We discussed the impact on draft and he felt the metal liner will make it a bit better than the terra cotta was and probably be more than adequate for the stove. "

So in the end I listened to my stove installer and to all y'all and got the pour in insulation, but sadly this L2 inspection makes me doubt whether that was enough as do all of your (very helpful but depressing) comments above! (For which I am very appreciative though dejected.)

 

[bholler]

*sigh* I was hoping you were going to tell me the inspector was being overly paranoid.

Just to play devil's advocate (anticipating what the original installer will say), the clay tile chimney was built in 1985 specifically for a wood stove and operated apparently adequately all that time. When I bought the Lopi and the guy said he could install a liner inside the clay tile for $800 I figured I was double-safe. I still had the clay liner (albeit with a bit knocked out of it) and now the stainless liner and it is an outside chimney that doesn't pass through the house (though it is attached and I don't know for absolutely certain what is between the liner and the first bit of combustible material. Up until now I've trusted my Amish builder that it was all fine in that respect.

How come my old clay liner was deemed safe in 1985 but in 2019 -- even with the addition of the stainless liner -- it isn't safe anymore?

(Again...devil's advocate.)

Chances are especially built by Amish it didn't meet code in 1985. Properly insulating is less about draft and more about safety. And regardless you should never install a damaged liner.

 

[ayesmokey]

To the op , is there a current issue with the chimney as it is now? Smoke inside house , not drawing , any issue?

I see the dent on liner and how bad it looks but I dont know if that effects performance. The liner is intact correct and not torn?

Definitely get a new cap as that one is extremely poor looking. And flexible crown coat is great material with a good warranty.

Insulation on an exterior chimney is always recommended.

The price seems pretty steep but you pay for what you get.. Peace of mind is priceless.

Perhaps if installation company wont help maybe whoever is the liner manufacturer can be of assistance just a thought.




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[fire_man]

My suggested product has been around for well over 30 years. Much longer than the lightwall stuff. And I actually find it more durable than rigid

Bholler could you please elaborate on this more durable than rigid?

 

[maple1]

Then, because I insisted based on things I had read here, I got them to pour insulation in around it. They said, "nah, ya don't need insulation" but I doubted them. Still, because of the snug fit I don't think the insulation is REALLY around a lot of the liner in spots .

Just thought I would throw this in. From things I have read on here, yes insulated liner is most always better. But I don't think pour-in is universally recommended so much - for the reason evident in the last sentence. It is likely more the rule than the exception that it won't insulate properly around the liner, due to inconsistent or simple lack of gap. Plus then it makes it hard to do anything with the liner later (like pulling it out or even up some) - or at least will make a big mess if you do need to pull it later. Really likely shouldn't be done at all if the liner doesn't go in super smooth & easy right off the bat.

Hard to close gates after horses are already out, but thinking the clay should have just been knocked out in the first place.

Good luck, whatever does or doesn't end up happening.