Napoleon 1400PL First Overnight, long rambling post

[Thislilfishy]

Yay! Stove finally all installed, and fired up! First note, phew, stinky! Also, another note, if you have an over sensitive fire alarm right above the stove be prepared to be deafened, or receive a load of angry texts from the wife...cause she can't reach it to take it down...apparently an hour of a fire alarm blaring can make a person a bit nutty!

So we put a mixed load of softwood and hardwood in about 2pm, my wife said it was hard to get the first fire going, but she managed it and had the flue temp up to 600 in short order. She let that burn down to coals, then when I got home I raked out the coals and stuffed in a large red cedar crotch (barely fit in stove) and let that burn. The cedar never got the flue temp above about 450, and seemed to hover between 350-400 really. At about 11pm it was still in one piece but easily broke apart into a bed of glowing coals. I put 3 medium sized splits in the stove and within 20 minutes I had this and went to bed:



...last nights outside temp was 3 degrees C (37F), I woke up at 7am and noticed right away that it didn't feel cold, but just about right (2nd floor bedroom as far from stove as possible in house). So I went downstairs. The flue temp probe was sitting at 200 and there was a large bed of glowing coals under the ashes. The temp in the house was 21.7 Celsius (71F). Considering the furnace is set much lower then that, it was all wood heat last night. I loaded the stove up (two birch splits EW load, 5 maple NS load. Close the door with draft full open. Within 20 minutes again had flue temp at 500 and began closing draft. 30 minutes draft full closed and temp at 600! So much for difficult break in period!

Bring on winter! I got it covered!

Ian

 

[Thislilfishy]

Eeek! It's a runaway freight train!

Did my first full load last night, about an hour or so after closing the draft as far as it goes I could hear the stove ticking and creaking, which I've already learned means it either cooling down or heating up. I glanced over expecting to see a dark stove, and instead saw a raging inferno. The flue temp was at 750 (probe therm) so I watched it carefully. Within about 15 minutes it had climbed to 800 and the fire inside seem to be getting more intense. At this point I took matters into my own hands. Opened the draft fully and open the door for a few minutes at a time (it was too hot to keep open very long). It took about 45 minutes to get it to calm down, and stabilize (made it to 850). I've read that temp spikes up to 1200 on occasion may be okay but I don't want to chance that.

So after looking closely on my stove this morning I saw that the draft control cannot be closed fully, has anyone modified the control on this stove so that it can be?

We have a very strong draft here, and extremely dry wood. If you read my previous threads, it was enough to suck a bundle of plastic bags straight up to the cap before we even had the stove installed (yes bags were removed). Would blocking off the draft intake at the bottom of the stove completely help control runaway fires better?

Ian

 

[spolleypt]

Would you consider a stove pipe damper to help control your draft? I had an old VC Vigilant and even with thermostatic damper and secondary damper closed really dry wood got away from me. Ended up with cracked chimney liner at the thimble, my only way to control the stove was with the stove pipe damper (which I didn't get to in time to save my liner).

 

[firefighterjake]

I've only had this happen a few times . . . mostly when I packed the stove too much with all primo wood and let the temps get too high before shutting down the air for the secondary action.

In my own case I located the inlet for the primary air (and using a large piece of folded up tin foil took advantage of the suction to partially close off the air -- restricting the air in effect.) This led to the fire slowing down dramatically, temps slowly declined and I ended up with some very interesting (lazy and unique colored) secondary flames. I also used the fan to blow directly on to the stove to help move off some of the heat in the very warm stove.

If this was to be a frequent occurrence (which it sounds like it may be in your case) I might advise you to consider a stove pipe damper -- something that is not always necessary or even often necessary with many folks . . . but in this case it might be a good idea.

 

[Thislilfishy]

Well that's 2 votes to none.

I'm going to try again tonight and see how it goes. I've got a flat magnet that I can stick over the intake if it starts up again. I do believe I let it get too hot before shutting the draft down. The first few fires I have been slowly closing the draft as the flames grow and ignored the flue temp. Meaning that I start closing the draft at about 250-300 and by the time I hit 400 it's fully closed. That seemed to work like a charm with the flue temp staying 400-450 through the burn cycle, and dropping to 250 during the coal only cycle. I followed the therm last night waiting until I saw 400 before starting to close the draft, it was 600 by the time I had it fully closed. I think I need to not do it that way again.

I will ask the installer about a damper though.

Ian

 

[Jags]

800F on a probe doesn't even get me to raise an eyebrow. Matter of fact, that is my goal. I try to peak it at 800F then settle the stove in for the long haul.

 

[Thislilfishy]

I was kind of wondering about that. My probe therm shows the danger zone at 850...I may have over reacted, but it's a new stove and I don't want to over fire it already...also my priority is safety for my family. Even though I have very poor self preservation skills when it comes to myself!

Ian

 

[Fsappo]

First thing I would do if I thought a stove was running a little loose (doesn't sounds like yours really is) would be to start a fire and check the gaskets with an incense stick or something, even on a new stove. I've had new stoves preburn pass the dollar bill test and fail it after a few burns.

 

[DougA]

If your probe is in the flue properly as mine is, I don't close the air controls until it hits the alarm set at 900. Jags is right, 800 in the flue is just getting started. However, that's at the beginning of a burn, not a constant. The flue temp should go lower once you are closed down and in the regular burn cycle.

Personally, I would try to limit the air intake as you suggest and see if that works. I'd also check for other air gaps as Fsappo posted. There have been other posts here with new stoves that were not made to the correct specs. I'd call Napoleon and get their opinion too.

Halloween is scary time but it does not apply to run-away fires in your stove. In the event of a real run-away fire, the first thing you do is put on an adult diaper, you'll need it.

 

[Thislilfishy]

Thanks guys, it's probably new guy panic. Not really a panic, cause in the end burning the house down would probably be doing me a favour.

I have a fire pit just out back, so my plan was to start pulling wood/coals out and having a nice bonfire outside, so wasn't panicked just concerned. Since everyone seems to think 800-850 is not a bad thing I'll let it run. What flue temps do you guys get to before getting worried? I am going to pick up a stove top therm too out of curiosity sake anyhow.

Ian

 

[spolleypt]

Thanks guys, it's probably new guy panic. Not really a panic, cause in the end burning the house down would probably be doing me a favour.

I have a fire pit just out back, so my plan was to start pulling wood/coals out and having a nice bonfire outside, so wasn't panicked just concerned. Since everyone seems to think 800-850 is not a bad thing I'll let it run. What flue temps do you guys get to before getting worried? I am going to pick up a stove top therm too out of curiosity sake anyhow.

Ian

I just purchased and installed the PE Summit and I know from reading up on it that folks with an ash pan note leaking through the ash dump when the stove is first new. Ash needs to build up and fill in over the ash damper to "seal" the leaks. I noticed the burn was a little hotter last night on my first fire right over the ash dump. Just a thought if you do have an ash dump.
Friend of the family is a retired fire chief and always repeats, "never take something out of the fire once you put it in"... removing burning wood from your stove and carting it through the house is asking for trouble in my opinion. If your concerned you should find another way to smother it.
On a side note, if 800 is commonplace flu temps why do the temp guages always pain 800 in the "OVERFIRE" range?

 

[Jags]

My gauge doesn't have ranges, only numbers. I decide what is overfire.
Really...I don't get too worked up unless I see it hit 900 and is still climbing. Slam the primary closed and it will start dropping within minutes (my stove, anyways).

 

[spolleypt]

My gauge doesn't have ranges, only numbers. I decide what is overfire.
Really...I don't get too worked up unless I see it hit 900 and is still climbing. Slam the primary closed and it will start dropping within minutes (my stove, anyways).

With my VC I figured if the magnet was still stuck to the stove pipe I was ok... I think the two times it fell off is when I cracked my chimney liner

 

[DougA]

With my VC I figured if the magnet was still stuck to the stove pipe I was ok... I think the two times it fell off is when I cracked my chimney liner

I keep a copy of this handy for quick reference:
http://www.blksmth.com/heat_colors.htm

 

[DougA]

On a side note, if 800 is commonplace flu temps why do the temp guages always pain 800 in the "OVERFIRE" range?

We are talking about the temps at the START of the burn. When my digital flue thermometer says 900 'at the start of a burn after reloading', the stove top therm is usually barely reading 200. It takes quite awhile for the cast iron/heavy steel to catch up. Once you are rolling, the flue will read the same or even lower, with a cat.

 

[Thislilfishy]

No cat, no ash tray, I was about two hours into the burn, the temp was rising over an hour AFTER I closed the draft as far as it would go.

As far as removing logs from the fire I would normally agree, however the door leading to fire pit is 4" from the edge of the hearth pad. Figured I could dump a log or two into the steel ash pan and straight out the door. No need to travel through the house.

Temp of the stove, I have no idea. The fire was bright orange...about a shade before white. However no part of the stove or pipe was glowing (lights off). All the logs were glowing bright red, and fully involved. However I don't think the stove was over hot. I have a 1 1/4" soapstone slab on top of the stove with a copper kettle full of water on that. The kettle had a little steam coming out of it, but the water was showing no signs of boiling (no little bubbles). In after thought I am thinking I over reacted a bit at the time.

Ian

 

[Thislilfishy]

We are talking about the temps at the START of the burn. When my digital flue thermometer says 900 'at the start of a burn after reloading', the stove top therm is usually barely reading 200. It takes quite awhile for the cast iron/heavy steel to catch up. Once you are rolling, the flue will read the same or even lower, with a cat.

Also may be a result of lawyers taking charge...maybe a law suit that someone claimed the therm was in normal but burned down the house anyhow.

Anyhow, perusing the manual for info on over firing, I found this:

- Do not let the appliance become hot enough for any part to glow red.
- KEEP THE STOVE TOP TEMPERATURE BELOW 700°F (371°C). Attempts to achieve heat output rates that exceed design specifications can result in steel distortion and damage.

So I figure if I can run the stove top up to 700, it's a safe bet my flue temps will be well above that at that time.


Ian

 

[DougA]

You might want to get an IR gun instead of the stove top thermometer. I've got 2 stove top ones and they are never the same as my IR. Princess Auto and Amazon had some on sale for low $20's. The beauty of the IR is that you can read the temp without leaving your Jacuzzi.

 

[Thislilfishy]

You might want to get an IR gun instead of the stove top thermometer. I've got 2 stove top ones and they are never the same as my IR. Princess Auto and Amazon had some on sale for low $20's. The beauty of the IR is that you can read the temp without leaving your Jacuzzi.

Hah, I might do that anyways. Can't seem to find a stove top therm around here anyway. Besides, there's always room for another tool in the ol' tool box!

Ian

 

[Thislilfishy]

Okay, crisis possibly averted. I got home from work, filled the stove to the brim and followed my normal draft procedure ( ignore temp, reduce draft slowly based on size/activity of flames). The flue temp peaked at 850 about an hour after closing draft all the way just like before, but I did nothing and she brought herself back down too 600 and dropping slowly, as the stove itself seems to be getting hotter (didn't get a therm to measure the stove yet). Now it's dead calm out there, so we'll see what happens when we get our usual 50mph winds, which will increase draft likely....but feeling much better after reading everyone else saying 800 or so is quite normal.

Ian

 

[Thislilfishy]

I did it! Burning on secondary only, the wood is just getting black and smoldering from the bottom. Flue temp stuck at 600. Been like this for about 2 hours now, this full load is 3 hours old at this point!

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