Need help with new tripple wall chimney QUICK!

[Gamalot]

I just helped a buddy install a new Dura Tech tripple wall chimney. I'm the carpenter.

We followed all the codes in our area and did a mighty fine job going from his basement garage up and thru his first floor and through a closet and then through the ceiling and finally thru the roof. We did not cut corners or scrimp in any way and have the installation exactly as Dura vent/tech describes with all tripple wall 6 inch pipe from the All nighter, Big Moe stove all the way to the cap at the top that is 4 feet above the roof and 3 feet above the peak.

He began burning well seasoned oak this week and the stove is working great except that we are noticing major creosote build up on the cap. So much so that it is dripping down from the very top cap and already beginning to drip on to the roof flashing.
He has hard crusted stelagmites forming on the outter edge of his chimney cap and we are at a loss to determine what we have done wrong.

Is there a way to check the draft of the chimney we installed?

We have a damper installed in the first single wall pipe just out of the stove after it makes a 90 degree upward turn to a straight run to the top. We have only ever left the damper fully open. It sure looks as though we are burning the stove plenty hot enough but what appears to be the culprit is the portion of the stack once it goes above the roof line and is no longer protected or totally exposed to the outside temps.

We have a tar like substance dripping from the edge of the top cap down on to the roof flashing and it just does not look right.

I can provide pics of what I am attempting to describe here but we sure don't feel comfortable and are concerned the buildup of creosote around the top cap could become a hazard.

Please help us if you have any ideas for a solution.

Thank you

Gam

 

[Brian VT]

Just to rule it out, split a chunk of wood and test it with a moisture meter.

 

[Gamalot]

We don't have such a meter but the wood we are burning has been in the garage for over 2 years and is not at all wet or even moist.

Gam

 

[BJ64]

This is just a wild guess from an unqualified cowboy with a chainsaw from Oklahoma but here it goes.

It seems that the stove is burning good and working fine. Since the closet has not burst into flames yet I suspect all is good with the pipe install just as you have said.

I also suspect the stove is not an EPA stove, but you will have to tell us to be sure.

That leaves the wood as the lone suspect. There are reports and post on this forum about oak taking quite a long time to season well.

You might want to remove the top section of pipe for an inspection. I bet you will have to beat the tar out of that pipe (sorry but the pun just came on its own). I'd try some different wood that is verified to be seasoned and see what happens.

 

[BJ64]

We don't have such a meter but the wood we are burning has been in the garage for over 2 years and is not at all wet or even moist.

Gam

I see your point and I am sure the wood is quite dry. But that is different than being seasoned.

I'm not sure how to explain this but the wood has sap in it that needs to be dried out. Sun and wind are quite effective at this and this may be why we call it seasoning wood rather than drying it.

Anyhow; this sap content will do the very thing you are describing.

The fix may be simple but it will take a bit of time. Stack the wood out in the yard where wind and sun can get to it and that will "dry" or season it as we should say. Take a look in the "Wood Shed" area of this forum and you will find many topics on this including an inexpensive wood moisture meter from Harbor Freight you may be interested in.

I believe your pipe and stove is good to go. I am afraid your wood is not quite ready yet.

 

[Gamalot]

This is just a wild guess from an unqualified cowboy with a chainsaw from Oklahoma but here it goes.

It seems that the stove is burning good and working fine. Since the closet has not burst into flames yet I suspect all is good with the pipe install just as you have said.

I also suspect the stove is not an EPA stove, but you will have to tell us to be sure.

That leaves the wood as the lone suspect. There are reports and post on this forum about oak taking quite a long time to season well.

You might want to remove the top section of pipe for an inspection. I bet you will have to beat the tar out of that pipe (sorry but the pun just came on its own). I'd try some different wood that is verified to be seasoned and see what happens.

Thanks BJ and I am not being argumentative at all. I don't understand the "EPA" rating of the stove. It is an ALL NIGHTER- BIG MOE stove and made by the ALL NIGHTER stove works out of Glastonburry, Ct. around 1980.

I owned this exact stove for many years and found it to be a fantastic and well designed heat source. I also never had this problem I am seeing now and always used what I would consider "less seasoned" wood.

We will get the Harbor Freight meter as you suggest and see what that test reveals. The wood we are using now has been stored outside but under an overhang and completely dry for well over 2 years. I can't say it has had winds blowing thru it but I can say the sun has been on the outside facing edge every day there was sun. Ther overhang is attached to the rear side of the garage and the wood was 18 inches under but did form the outtermost wall of the overhang.

I had this exact model stove in my own home for many years and went to burning coal and a different stove a few years ago. I never saw the dripping creosote like at my buddies house but I also did not have a tripple wall pipe with the top 4 feet exposed. Mine was a masonary 10 X 10 flue tile inside of square cement blocks up to about 4 inches from the top of the tiles.

I honestly believe the creosote is only forming in the top section of the exposed tripple wall pipe and on the cap. We will be inspecting it tomorrow with the cap removed. It just appears to me that as soon as the exhaust hits the very last 3 foot section of tripple wall above the roof line that it is cooling rapidly and depositing there and on the underside of the top cap. I also notice when I open the stove door that some of the smoke comes out into the room instead of a rush going directly up the pipe. I never had that happen with this stove while in my home. When I opened the stove door the suction from the pipe took all the firebox smoke straight up the pipe and it was a rare time when any of the smoke ever entered my home. There were some days when we had strange outdoor pressures and a down draft was present.

Could it be we need to go higher? On a horizontal measure the pipe is 10 feet from the peak of the roof and extends 3 feet or one full 36 inch section of tripple wall above the peak.

Gary

 

[jtp10181]

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/All_Nighter_Stove_Co./

Ok that stove is from the late 70's, there is the first problem. Its not EPA approved. Its generating tons of particulate in the flue gasses and you will burn 3x the wood for the same heat as a modern stove.

The creosote at the top can only be caused by low flue gas temps. This combined with the fact that its not a clean burning stove = lots of creosote in a hurry.

Low flue gas temps cause be cause by too much moisture in the wood, slow draft, leaks in the chimney... prob some other things I can't think of.

 

[Brian VT]

Sounds like a slow draft if you're getting smoke out the door. What's the outdoors and inside temps. ?
If it's not much cooler outside the air doesn't "want" to move. Search "stack effect".
I'd still verify the moisture content of the wood, if you can. Maybe bring a freshly split chunk to a local woodworker ? He probably has a meter. The cabinet shop I work for has one.

 

[Gamalot]

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/All_Nighter_Stove_Co./

Ok that stove is from the late 70's, there is the first problem. Its not EPA approved. Its generating tons of particulate in the flue gasses and you will burn 3x the wood for the same heat as a modern stove.

The creosote at the top can only be caused by low flue gas temps. This combined with the fact that its not a clean burning stove = lots of creosote in a hurry.

Low flue gas temps cause be cause by too much moisture in the wood, slow draft, leaks in the chimney... prob some other things I can't think of.

Thanks JTP! I was always under the impression this was a great stove! Not from any technical knowledge other then it did a great job for me when I had one. I easily heated a 1500 Sq/ft home with 4-5 full cords every year here in NY 100 miles north of NYC. I don't know squat about the EPA or clean burning issues you mention so please direct me to some education from other then those trying to sell us a new stove.

I know for sure the chimney is tight and correctly installed and I am pretty certain the wood is not the total cause but I do find the "Tons of particulate in the flue gasses" to be interesting and a likely suspect.

Gary

 

[Pagey]

Gary,

Read this link, please. (broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.org/technology/woodstoves.htm) I think that will help answer your questions.

 

[Gamalot]

Sounds like a slow draft if you're getting smoke out the door. What's the outdoors and inside temps. ?
If it's not much cooler outside the air doesn't "want" to move. Search "stack effect".
I'd still verify the moisture content of the wood, if you can. Maybe bring a freshly split chunk to a local woodworker ? He probably has a meter. The cabinet shop I work for has one.

This week the OS temps at night have been down around 23 and the inside basement temps around 60 with no stove burning. Once the stove gets going the IS temps easily go to 90.

We will get a meter and I will take a few logs as you say to a local wood shop I know has a meter.

Thanks Guys, I feel like I am getting the answers I need but not necessarily the ones I want to hear. The object is to get this right so please keep the info coming.

Gam

 

[Pagey]

Also look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-5yFVYSXhw

Run it out to about 45 seconds, then watch what happens at the 1:00 mark. Notice the fire move to the top of the fire box. That's the smoke itself combusting and burning, thus not going up the chimney. This is a video of an EPA certified non-catalytic stove, the Lopi Liberty. Beautiful fire, plus it's burning up the nasty stuff!

 

[Burd]

Is it posible that the new pipe that you installed has a thin layer of oil on the in side and as this oil will heat
s up a it will travel to the highest point and is dripping out the top. Now when I installed my six inch liner 25' feet of it was sprayed with some thing an my cap did the same thing but I didnt have a lot of dripps
MY2 cents. keep and eye on it. Get your ladder and take the top off and see what is going on.MY be get a fire going and look down to see whats going on(dont in hale over the pipe that chit wll kiil ya
Send some pictures .Do you have a clean out. If so check that out. Whats the fire box look like. (is it dirty or clean).Good luck bro KEEP ON KEEP ON

 

[BJ64]

I honestly believe the creosote is only forming in the top section of the exposed tripple wall pipe and on the cap. We will be inspecting it tomorrow with the cap removed. It just appears to me that as soon as the exhaust hits the very last 3 foot section of tripple wall above the roof line that it is cooling rapidly and depositing there and on the underside of the top cap. I also notice when I open the stove door that some of the smoke comes out into the room instead of a rush going directly up the pipe. I never had that happen with this stove while in my home. When I opened the stove door the suction from the pipe took all the firebox smoke straight up the pipe and it was a rare time when any of the smoke ever entered my home. There were some days when we had strange outdoor pressures and a down draft was present.

Could it be we need to go higher? On a horizontal measure the pipe is 10 feet from the peak of the roof and extends 3 feet or one full 36 inch section of tripple wall above the peak.

Gary

Yes that stove sounds like the heat monster. I grew up around stoves of similar nature. Here, most of them were home made from a pattern ordered from a magazine.

As a kid it seemed like all we burned was green wood and the tar would form up just like you was describing. I think you are right about the stuff forming on the last 3 feet of pipe where it cools off. Chances are when that stove was hooked to the brick chimney it was able to keep the entire stack hot enough to prevent most of the deposits.

I'll let the experts here advise on the pipe situation. I suspect burning better seasoned wood will solve the major issue and that the install is good as it is.

The EPA stoves are interesting. They have secondary combustion systems of various sorts that actually burn off most of that junk that would other wise "tar" up a stove pipe. The bum thing about them is they must have wood that is well seasoned with less than 22%, some say even less than 20% moisture. This is my first year with one and so far I can attest that they produce and amazing amount of heat and long burn times with and equally amazing small amount of wood.

This is all stuff that came out in the last few years, perhaps 10 to 15 years. I was quite skeptical of them at first but after moving to this new house and having to feed a silly fireplace 3-4 times a night; I was ready to do something different. These rigs are tiny after being with Big Moe but if you read around this forum much you will find most of us feel they are more than up to the job. They are picky about what they burn whereas Big Moe would burn anything that would fit but I have grown to like them.

I think you would enjoy checking them out as well.

Good luck

 

[Gamalot]

Thanks Pagey. I can't do the video on this slowpoke connection but I do get the idea. Actually makes allot of sense because I gave up on the giant wood stove in the basement and 5 cords + all the labor for a tiny coal stove in the living room that takes half the effort and expense but keeps the living space toasty warm.

I still can't understand why I didn't do this sooner or why I burnt out me just trying to feed the basement stove.

Gam

 

[Brian VT]

I'm the carpenter.

Gam

I hope you take it as a compliment that people are offering solutions that have nothing to do with your install.
The fact that you seem determined to fix this issue, even though it's probably not your fault, and are doing it "on your own time" suggests that you are a stand-up guy.
This world could use a few more people like you. Cheers.

 

[begreen]

Did I read correctly that this is installed in a basement level garage? The flue may be by the manual, but if there is a woodstove in the garage it is a code violation. If this is an uninsulated space and the stove has a single wall connector, the connector likely should be double wall to reduce cooling of the flue gases.

 

[BJ64]

Did I read correctly that this is installed in a basement level garage? The flue may be by the manual, but if there is a woodstove in the garage it is a code violation. If this is an uninsulated space and the stove has a single wall connector, the connector likely should be double wall to reduce cooling of the flue gases.

Hello Mr. Green

I bet Gam is far enough out of town, nobody has a code there. After all they did get away with installing a stove called Big Moe.

But we may need to study up on why a stove in the garage is bad enough to be a code violation.

 

[fossil]

NFPA 211 is the default reference for North America, unless overridden by a local Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ)...could be the county, the community development department, the fire marshall, or whatever. So, unless there's a local authority that says otherwise (which I understand in a few places there is), then solid fuel-burning appliances are not allowed in garages, or anyplace else where flammable vapors could exist. (Chapter 12, section 12.2). If you care about stuff like that. Rick

 

[Gamalot]

I honestly believe the creosote is only forming in the top section of the exposed tripple wall pipe and on the cap. We will be inspecting it tomorrow with the cap removed. It just appears to me that as soon as the exhaust hits the very last 3 foot section of tripple wall above the roof line that it is cooling rapidly and depositing there and on the underside of the top cap. I also notice when I open the stove door that some of the smoke comes out into the room instead of a rush going directly up the pipe. I never had that happen with this stove while in my home. When I opened the stove door the suction from the pipe took all the firebox smoke straight up the pipe and it was a rare time when any of the smoke ever entered my home. There were some days when we had strange outdoor pressures and a down draft was present.

Could it be we need to go higher? On a horizontal measure the pipe is 10 feet from the peak of the roof and extends 3 feet or one full 36 inch section of tripple wall above the peak.

Gary

Yes that stove sounds like the heat monster. I grew up around stoves of similar nature. Here, most of them were home made from a pattern ordered from a magazine.

As a kid it seemed like all we burned was green wood and the tar would form up just like you was describing. I think you are right about the stuff forming on the last 3 feet of pipe where it cools off. Chances are when that stove was hooked to the brick chimney it was able to keep the entire stack hot enough to prevent most of the deposits.

I'll let the experts here advise on the pipe situation. I suspect burning better seasoned wood will solve the major issue and that the install is good as it is.

The EPA stoves are interesting. They have secondary combustion systems of various sorts that actually burn off most of that junk that would other wise "tar" up a stove pipe. The bum thing about them is they must have wood that is well seasoned with less than 22%, some say even less than 20% moisture. This is my first year with one and so far I can attest that they produce and amazing amount of heat and long burn times with and equally amazing small amount of wood.

This is all stuff that came out in the last few years, perhaps 10 to 15 years. I was quite skeptical of them at first but after moving to this new house and having to feed a silly fireplace 3-4 times a night; I was ready to do something different. These rigs are tiny after being with Big Moe but if you read around this forum much you will find most of us feel they are more than up to the job. They are picky about what they burn whereas Big Moe would burn anything that would fit but I have grown to like them.

I think you would enjoy checking them out as well.

Good luck

WOW, I feel like I came to the woodburners university and enrolled in wood stove 101!

Not to age myself but back in the late "70s the three big stoves around here were Fisher, Timberline and the All Nighters. Built to last a lifetime but apparently not designed to keep up with new technology.

I can't tell you all how informative this has been and I also have to delve a bit deeper into this with some of the experts who might be able to shed some light.

Can an old monster such as our Big Moe that takes 28 inch logs and really is well built be made to burn more efficiently? We are a couple of retired guys with lots of time and lots of tools and love to tinker with the welders and other equipment we have to try to make things better and save a few bucks when possible. I don't think we need more heat out of this stove but cleaner burning and better efficiency from the wood pile would be worth some experimenting.

I have looked into a few of the newer stoves and see what appears to be a baffle plate welded in above the fire box from the rear towards the front about 2/3rds of the way. Air can't just come in and then go right up the stack but it looks like the air enters thru the door drafts and gets circulated around and heated in the fire box and then comes forward to escape up and then all the way back in to the flue pipe. Almost like an S pattern. Has anyone even tried to make some of these older designed stoves more efficient or EPA friendly? It just seems like a real shame to scrap a perfectly well built stove if there is a way to update it.

I still think we could have a problem with not enough draft suction up the pipe and some cooling up at the top that is causing some of this problem. I also wish there was some way to test just how much suction we actually have and what is good.

I will get some pics tomorrow if the rains let up and post them here.

Gam

 

[BJ64]

So, unless there's a local authority that says otherwise (which I understand in a few places there is), then solid fuel-burning appliances are not allowed in garages, or anyplace else where flammable vapors could exist. (Chapter 12, section 12.2). If you care about stuff like that. Rick

RATS!

Now how in the heck are we gonna fire up the moonshine still and stay in code?

 

[Gamalot]

I'm the carpenter.

Gam

I hope you take it as a compliment that people are offering solutions that have nothing to do with your install.
The fact that you seem determined to fix this issue, even though it's probably not your fault, and are doing it "on your own time" suggests that you are a stand-up guy.
This world could use a few more people like you. Cheers.

I am thrilled with all the responses and loving the great info. I like to think I am a stand up guy but the operative term here is the stove owner is a real buddy and we do all sorts of stuff with and for each other.

We don't know of any code violations here and our building permit and plans were approved by the inspector. He also does not keep any flamables here because there is a very nice detached shop with auto lift 50 feet away.
He does park a very nice convertible in this under the house garage but it is at least 6 feet away from the stove and pipes.

Good point above about the single wall pipe right off the back of the stove. He has a single wall 90 degree elbow off the back of the stove and then about 4.5 feet of single wall that goes in to the tripple wall pipe.

Gam

 

[spadafore]

If you can park a car in the same room as the stove and it is attached to the house all bets should be off. The flamable gas in the car can potentialy be a huge problem along with whatever other flamables are stored in the same room.

 

[pyro68]

still think we could have a problem with not enough draft suction up the pipe and some cooling up at the top that is causing some of this problem. I also wish there was some way to test just how much suction we actually have and what is good.

I will get some pics tomorrow if the rains let up and post them here.

Gam


there are draft meters that can be used to check the "suction" you have. Does it still smoke out the door after the stove has been burning hot? Old saying goes "stoves don't smoke, chimneys smoke" I've seen installs that met code (chimney height) but an extra section made a world of dif. My guess would be that it's wood related; however I do get some creosote build up right at the top when the weather isn't real cold. Usually burns off when it gets cold & I really have the stove going. I found out by trial & error that my garage was not the best place to season wood, I actually had moldy wood by the time I learned :red: