Needing Assistance in Figuring Out Which Stove

[Parallax]

What about an indoor wood furnace?

For a furnace, we'd need duct work. The house was designed for radiant heat. We could get a wood fired boiler, but then we wouldn't have the stove in our midst.

 

[Brick (ware)House]

Seems like a great stove. Couple of questions. First, with soapstone, there's going to be a degree of lag when the unit is heated, right? If I fire it up, how long before one gets the huge output of heat that the stove can clearly muster? Second, I'm not seeing a dealer network. Would there be any way to get a look at the thing before buying and who would provide service if something went wrong?

Call Woodstock and ask them to find an owner in your area that would be willing to give you a look. Factory direct so there is no dealer to take a cut for giving suspect information and bad advice. You will find much better info here than from any dealer I have met. Most of them have heated a home with precious few of the stoves in their showrooms.

 

[Parallax]

Call Woodstock and ask them to find an owner in your area that would be willing to give you a look. Factory direct so there is no dealer to take a cut for giving suspect information and bad advice. You will find much better info here than from any dealer I have met. Most of them have heated a home with precious few of the stoves in their showrooms.

Thanks; will give them a call.

 

[Parallax]

I like cat stoves a lot, but make sure you get a BIG one if your goal is long burn times. Based on your sq/ft, I don't think the Ashford is big enough for you to experience those impressive burn times. You will have to run it at a higher setting and the burn times will be similar to that of non-cat stoves of a similar size. The BK's are known for great burn times but that is only if you are able to leave it at a low setting. After all, that is the benefit of the cat stove. Long and low. Go bigger.

I currently have the Princess but have a new King sitting in the garage waiting to be installed. My priority is burn times and I have to run the Princess too hard to get the heat I want. Its a lot cheaper to get the right stove the first time.

The more I think about it, the more I think we'll be ok with the Ashford. This is what Webby has been saying and it seems to bear out. Here's why.

This is our first year in this house. It was a foreclosure. We knew the heating system might be flawed but decided to buy it anyway -- partially because we love the home and also because we got a really good deal. We knew we might spend $10k to $15k to upgrade the system. Two experts recommended we just run it this winter and see how it did.

Before things got cold, I saw it was costing us $400 a month in propane. Then temperatures plunged and the thing was just inhaling the stuff. The meter on our tank was dropping fast. It might have cost $1,000 a month when temperatures had dipped down to 15 degrees. So I turned it off, plugged in an electric space heater and began figuring out what to do. The first plan was to quickly have a wood stove installed. When it turned out that moving that fast probably wasn't the best option, we bought three more electric space heaters. The house was 45 degrees inside and it was around 12 degrees outside when I turned on the other three. That was Saturday night.

Slowly, those four space heaters have warmed the place up. It's now Tuesday morning and the house is 65 degrees. The temperature outside was very cold until this morning. It's now 32 outside and we should be above freezing today (for the first time in a little while).

If four space heaters, each putting out around 5,000 BTUs per hour (20,000 BTUs total), can heat this place from 45 degrees to 65 degrees (and climbing) even when it's super cold outside (as cold as it ever gets around here), the Ashford, which puts out 12,000 BTUs for 30 hours straight or 36,000 BTUs for 10 hours straight, should be more than up to the task. We might not be looking at 24 hour burns. And lets assume that, with the soft woods we have around here, it burns half as long as they claim, chances are we'll still be alright. Perhaps it runs full-bore through the winter and we load it a few times a day. It may not produce the miraculous performance some experience but it should keep us warm. Then when temperatures back off to where they normally are, we should be able to throttle it way down and get a way more even, low, long burn than with the non-cats.

The King would do the job easily, year round, but most of the time it would be overkill. That would be fine if my wife didn't mind how it looked. But she does and the Ashford should be adequate.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks. Do you have a sense of why catalytic stoves would generate a higher volume of support issues?

Yes: recreational burners, combined with many people who thought they continue burning these new stoves like their old Fishers. Catalytic stoves were the first EPA technology introduced, and there was a major learning curve, for people who'd been burning a lifetime in non-EPA stoves. Folks who thought they knew how to burn, and wouldn't "RTFM", and other folks who were completely new to burning, who were struggling with trying to burn green wood in a catalytic stove. Catalytic stoves are the higher performance option, but they are less tolerant of poorly seasoned wood than non-cat's, and do require a little bit of care with what you put in them. No painted wood, no trash, no pressure treated wood, no galvanized construction framing hangers, etc. These things will poison your cat, and render it less effective. You also have to take care with not overheating the cat, although all of this sounds much more difficult than it really is... if you're willing to just "RTFM".

Seems like a great stove. Couple of questions. First, with soapstone, there's going to be a degree of lag when the unit is heated, right? If I fire it up, how long before one gets the huge output of heat that the stove can clearly muster? Second, I'm not seeing a dealer network. Would there be any way to get a look at the thing before buying and who would provide service if something went wrong?

This soapstone thing gets played out way too much, largely by the manufacturers. Soapstone has a heat capacity somewhere around double that of cast iron, pound for pound. So, it takes twice as long to reach a specific temperature, and on the tail end of the burn cools half as fast, as a cast iron stove of similar weight. The thing is... this difference is measured in minutes, NOT hours. Whereas it takes 15 minutes for your cast iron stove to reach peak operating temperature, it will take 30 minutes for the soapstone stove. Same in reverse, on the tail end of the burn. This factor is grossly exaggerated in the marketing of soapstone stoves.

What you need to get your mind around (this was something I resisted as well), is that when heating with wood, you'll do well to just plan on keeping temperatures up 24/7. I have six zones on my oil boiler, two zones on my gas, five zones of AC, and played them all out to my advantage, with programmable thermostats. However, heating with a space heater (your wood stove) is much different. If you let the house go cold, it will be hell getting the rooms farthest from the stove back up to temperature. However, if you just keep temps constant (burning 24/7), things equalize pretty well. The mass of your house is a giant capacitor, pump BTU's into it, and it will radiate back long-term. This sort of takes the time constant out the equation, when comparing soapstone to cast iron or steel.

Yesterday, I scored some chord wood. Once I got it home, the pile, tightly stacked was around 4 1/2 by 7 by 3 feet high, so maybe just shy of 3/4 of a chord. Not bad for $30 plus a few hours schlepping (though, in the future, I'm having it delivered). The wood appears to be mostly fir with some alder thrown in. Has probably been drying for about a year. Not sure how I'm gonna find the quantity of wood necessary to heat a home. Also, given that my neighborhood CC&Rs limit me to a woodshed no more than 100 square feet, how am I going to stove enough wood for a season (while preparing for the year after too)?

Congrat's on the score. In terms of acquiring enough wood to heat a home, many here buy a log truck once every year or two, which contains 6 - 10 cords for $500 - $700. This is usually the cheapest and easiest way to buy, leaving you to buck and split logs already cut to 10' lengths. Each cord of wood equals about $630 in oil (at our local $3.65/gal), so buying wood at $100/cord is very economical.

Finally, it's "cord," not "chord." This is firewood, not music!

 

[hack]

The more I think about it, the more I think we'll be ok with the Ashford. This is what Webby has been saying and it seems to bear out. Here's why.

This is our first year in this house. It was a foreclosure. We knew the heating system might be flawed but decided to buy it anyway -- partially because we love the home and also because we got a really good deal. We knew we might spend $10k to $15k to upgrade the system. Two experts recommended we just run it this winter and see how it did.

Before things got cold, I saw it was costing us $400 a month in propane. Then temperatures plunged and the thing was just inhaling the stuff. The meter on our tank was dropping fast. It might have cost $1,000 a month when temperatures had dipped down to 15 degrees. So I turned it off, plugged in an electric space heater and began figuring out what to do. The first plan was to quickly have a wood stove installed. When it turned out that moving that fast probably wasn't the best option, we bought three more electric space heaters. The house was 45 degrees inside and it was around 12 degrees outside when I turned on the other three. That was Saturday night.

Slowly, those four space heaters have warmed the place up. It's now Tuesday morning and the house is 65 degrees. The temperature outside was very cold until this morning. It's now 32 outside and we should be above freezing today (for the first time in a little while).

If four space heaters, each putting out around 5,000 BTUs per hour (20,000 BTUs total), can heat this place from 45 degrees to 65 degrees (and climbing) even when it's super cold outside (as cold as it ever gets around here), the Ashford, which puts out 12,000 BTUs for 30 hours straight or 36,000 BTUs for 10 hours straight, should be more than up to the task. We might not be looking at 24 hour burns. And lets assume that, with the soft woods we have around here, it burns half as long as they claim, chances are we'll still be alright. Perhaps it runs full-bore through the winter and we load it a few times a day. It may not produce the miraculous performance some experience but it should keep us warm. Then when temperatures back off to where they normally are, we should be able to throttle it way down and get a way more even, low, long burn than with the non-cats.

The King would do the job easily, year round, but most of the time it would be overkill. That would be fine if my wife didn't mind how it looked. But she does and the Ashford should be adequate.

I understand and agree with your logic. I just wanted to point out that the burn times referenced are at the low setting which is a lot less heat than I expected. At the higher settings the benefits of the cat become negated. Better to oversize with the cat stove. Also, the BTU's from the stove wouldn't be spread out as well as your space heaters so that needs to be taken into account. I understand the wife needs to like the looks of the stove. Has she seen the King in person? My wife and I actually think its a great looking stove. Especially after you've used it for a while!

 

[hack]

You will find much better info here than from any dealer I have met. Most of them have heated a home with precious few of the stoves in their showrooms.

Very True. I'm sure there are some good and knowledgable dealers out there, but I haven't found them. Every stove shop I have been into soley pushes their product. I don't even bother calling my dealer with BK questions anymore because they have proven themselves clueless. I just call Blaze King directly or come on here.

 

[Ashful]

At the higher settings the benefits of the cat become negated.

I understand what you're trying to say here, but think you might be over-stating your point. I would say that at higher settings, the performance of the cat stove is closer to the performance of the non-cat. One might ask, then why bother with the added cost of a catalytic stove? The answer to that question becomes obvious when outside temps go back up to 40F.

 

[Parallax]

Yes: recreational burners, combined with many people who thought they continue burning these new stoves like their old Fishers. Catalytic stoves were the first EPA technology introduced, and there was a major learning curve, for people who'd been burning a lifetime in non-EPA stoves. Folks who thought they knew how to burn, and wouldn't "RTFM", and other folks who were completely new to burning, who were struggling with trying to burn green wood in a catalytic stove. Catalytic stoves are the higher performance option, but they are less tolerant of poorly seasoned wood than non-cat's, and do require a little bit of care with what you put in them. No painted wood, no trash, no pressure treated wood, no galvanized construction framing hangers, etc. These things will poison your cat, and render it less effective. You also have to take care with not overheating the cat, although all of this sounds much more difficult than it really is... if you're willing to just "RTFM".


This soapstone thing gets played out way too much, largely by the manufacturers. Soapstone has a heat capacity somewhere around double that of cast iron, pound for pound. So, it takes twice as long to reach a specific temperature, and on the tail end of the burn cools half as fast, as a cast iron stove of similar weight. The thing is... this difference is measured in minutes, NOT hours. Whereas it takes 15 minutes for your cast iron stove to reach peak operating temperature, it will take 30 minutes for the soapstone stove. Same in reverse, on the tail end of the burn. This factor is grossly exaggerated in the marketing of soapstone stoves.

What you need to get your mind around (this was something I resisted as well), is that when heating with wood, you'll do well to just plan on keeping temperatures up 24/7. I have six zones on my oil boiler, two zones on my gas, five zones of AC, and played them all out to my advantage, with programmable thermostats. However, heating with a space heater (your wood stove) is much different. If you let the house go cold, it will be hell getting the rooms farthest from the stove back up to temperature. However, if you just keep temps constant (burning 24/7), things equalize pretty well. The mass of your house is a giant capacitor, pump BTU's into it, and it will radiate back long-term. This sort of takes the time constant out the equation, when comparing soapstone to cast iron or steel.


Congrat's on the score. In terms of acquiring enough wood to heat a home, many here buy a log truck once every year or two, which contains 6 - 10 cords for $500 - $700. This is usually the cheapest and easiest way to buy, leaving you to buck and split logs already cut to 10' lengths. Each cord of wood equals about $630 in oil (at our local $3.65/gal), so buying wood at $100/cord is very economical.

Finally, it's "cord," not "chord." This is firewood, not music!

I like the log truck idea. Guess I'd have to buy a chain saw and a splitter. Good exercise. How does one find such a wood source?

Some years ago, I was using a little electric chain saw when the chain came off, nicking my face just under the eye. I wasn't seriously injured but this was just luck. Could have lost an eye or worse. Haven't used a chain saw since and I've a bit of fear around picking one up again. How does one use such a machine safely?

 

[Parallax]

I understand what you're trying to say here, but think you might be over-stating your point. I would say that at higher settings, the performance of the cat stove is closer to the performance of the non-cat. One might ask, then why bother with the added cost of a catalytic stove? The answer to that question becomes obvious when outside temps go back up to 40F.

Yes, and since I live in a region where temps rarely drop much below 40, a cat stove would seem most likely the right choice.

 

[Parallax]

I understand and agree with your logic. I just wanted to point out that the burn times referenced are at the low setting which is a lot less heat than I expected. At the higher settings the benefits of the cat become negated. Better to oversize with the cat stove. Also, the BTU's from the stove wouldn't be spread out as well as your space heaters so that needs to be taken into account. I understand the wife needs to like the looks of the stove. Has she seen the King in person? My wife and I actually think its a great looking stove. Especially after you've used it for a while!

Yes, we've got to look at both the Ashford and the King. Right now, it's just a matter of finding a dealer who has both.

 

[Ashful]

Has she seen the King in person? My wife and I actually think its a great looking stove.

Anyone who can look at the oddly bulbous shape of the King without thinking of these two guys has serious problems with cognitive association.

 

[hack]

Anyone who can look at the oddly bulbous shape of the King without thinking of these two guys has serious problems with cognitive association.

View attachment 120105

Lol, now I will. Thanks.......

 

[hack]

I understand what you're trying to say here, but think you might be over-stating your point. I would say that at higher settings, the performance of the cat stove is closer to the performance of the non-cat. One might ask, then why bother with the added cost of a catalytic stove? The answer to that question becomes obvious when outside temps go back up to 40F.

I'm not saying to go non-cat. I love having the ability to set the desired temp and know that the stove is still operating efficiently. Not to mention the thermostat on the Blaze Kings is great.... My point is that if you undersize the stove you will be losing the main benefit of the stove. The ability to run less than half throttle efficiently and long burn times. Also, I don't believe running hot is great for the cat long term. This is what I experienced when I chose the Princess over the King.

Is the Ashford too small? I don't know. Sounds to me like the only harm with going bigger is looks.

 

[Ashful]

My point is that if you undersize the stove you will be losing the main benefit of the stove. The ability to run less than half throttle efficiently and long burn times.

True dat! However, I suspect that the OP will be spending the majority of his time at low throttle, given the many descriptions I've seen of his climate.

Also, I don't believe running hot is great for the cat long term. This is what I experienced when I chose the Princess over the King.

I think this varies with a particular stove design and install (i.e. chimney height) situation. The stove doesn't care what temp you run it at, any more than does the body of a non-cat stove, but you do want to maintain typical cat temperatures below 1700F to prolong the life of your catalytic element. I can (usually) do this with my stoves at any stove-top temperature from 300 to 700F, if I choose my wood sizing and species right for the type of burn I want to achieve. I have seen one complain from a BK owner, that he had enormous trouble running his BK in the upper end of its range, but it seems that's an exception to the norm. I think the vast majority of cat stove owners will tell you they can run their stoves pretty damn hot, before having to worry about over-firing the catalytic element, but there are always exceptions.

 

[Kool_hand_Looke]

I like the log truck idea. Guess I'd have to buy a chain saw and a splitter. Good exercise. How does one find such a wood source?

Some years ago, I was using a little electric chain saw when the chain came off, nicking my face just under the eye. I wasn't seriously injured but this was just luck. Could have lost an eye or worse. Haven't used a chain saw since and I've a bit of fear around picking one up again. How does one use such a machine safely?

Absolutely a chainsaw and a splitter. And just like your stove, don't go cheap. You'll gt wat you pay for. Check out DR Trimmers rack and pinion splitter. Super fast...but not the safest.

 

[Kool_hand_Looke]

I like the log truck idea. Guess I'd have to buy a chain saw and a splitter. Good exercise. How does one find such a wood source?

Some years ago, I was using a little electric chain saw when the chain came off, nicking my face just under the eye. I wasn't seriously injured but this was just luck. Could have lost an eye or worse. Haven't used a chain saw since and I've a bit of fear around picking one up again. How does one use such a machine safely?

Also, I'm sure smeone will yell at me for mentioning Stihl about how their poulan saw will cut circles around my Stihl. But...Stihl sells all the saftey stuff to go with bucking. I never wore saw chaps...then I did. Wear #3 saved me from at least gouging my leg. And just as claimed, it stopped that saw before knew what was going on.

 

[Parallax]

Also, I'm sure smeone will yell at me for mentioning Stihl about how their poulan saw will cut circles around my Stihl. But...Stihl sells all the saftey stuff to go with bucking. I never wore saw chaps...then I did. Wear #3 saved me from at least gouging my leg. And just as claimed, it stopped that saw before knew what was going on.

Sounds scary.

 

[Kool_hand_Looke]

Sounds scary.

You just need to respect it and wear the right PPE. I bought the chaps, shield, log roller, and I already have prscription safety glasses due to my line of work. You're burning wood now. Time to grow a beard, saw some logs, and make your man-friends jealous.

 

[Ashful]

Finding the log truck: call local developers, excavators, and arborists. If they're doing any building where you live, there's someone who has the job of clearing the land. That's the guy who'll be selling log loads. Going rate is about $600 +/- per truck load, and a truck load is usually around 8 cords.

On chainsaw safety, your chain almost certainly didn't hop off a properly tuned and tensioned saw. Your minor injury was likely the result of a saw that was not properly set up, the primary chainsaw safety tool being the knowledge to keep the saw in proper running order, and knowing how to use it. There are countless members here who have used chainsaws and splitters all their life with no major incident, and the few who have had an accident will mostly tell you exactly what they did wrong. There's enough info to share on this subject to fill another forum, so start a thread in The Gear when you're ready to take the plunge. To get started, you can buy wood already cut and split, typically close to $200 / cord.

So, based on my local pricing, we're talking $630 oil = $100 cord logs = $200 cord cut and split. It doesn't matter how you buy your wood, it's still vastly cheaper than oil. Many of us enjoy the work and exercise involved in felling, cutting, and splitting, and I suspect you might as well. But there is an up-front investment to that venture. At a minimum, you'll be looking at a chainsaw ($500) and safety gear (chaps & helmet, boots & gloves). For splitting you can figure on anything from a $30 maul to a $2000 splitter. I started with a cheap maul for the majority of my splitting, and would play catch up by renting a splitter for $100 once per year. This year, I finally bought a mid-level splitter for about $1000, but I'm ripping thru more wood than the average stover.

 

[Parallax]

Hey, thanks guys. I have some pretty cool logging boots that I bought for hiking a while back. Heavy SOBs, and they don't have the steel toe that work boots usually have, but I think they're probably right for cutting logs. Guess I'll have to invest in the equipment. I'll tell ya; just moving that 3/4 of a cord of pre-cut, pre-split wood took a lot of effort. Of course it was about 12 degrees out and I was moving it in the passenger compartment of an old Volvo 240 (took three trips).

 

[begreen]

Let's get back to the stove here. Parallax, there's a gear forum here that you should post questions to about saws, splitters, PPE, etc. There are some good folks there that hang out more in the WoodShed and gear forums than here.

PS: I endorse the choice of the Ashford.

 

[Parallax]

Let's get back to the stove here. Parallax, there's a gear forum here that you should post questions to about saws, splitters, PPE, etc. There are some good folks there that hang out more in the WoodShed and gear forums than here.

PS: I endorse the choice of the Ashford.

Thanks, both for the Ashford endorsement, and for keeping us on track.