New Burner Questions & City Dwelling Burners?

[MapleLeafCityBurner]

Nothing against people that like pellet stoves, but for me and the burning it was a decision about aesthetics, lowering my NG bill and getting a little extra exercise in the yard. Pellet stove doesnt do it for me.

Plus, I did mention that if it doesnt work this way, I'll have to consider storing wood along my fences.

Anyways, thanks for all the input, I'll let you know how it works out with installation and my first burn, slated for about a month from now.

 

[bsearcey]

Don't get me wrong, I know I can store probably 3-4 cords of wood on my property, but I do not want it to be an eyesore, or to take that much away from an already small yard. Also, I literally do not have space for a 10x10 area anywhere on my property except maybe in the middle of my front yard. That would definitely scare the neighbours.

I think I will find after this winter that I will need at least 2.5 cords, stored before the snow flies, but for the first winter Im going to try storing just the 1.33 I have space for now and see how it goes.

Anyone have experience getting wood mid-winter? It will already be split, just need stacking and splitting for kindling.

Maple. You are in serious trouble if you think 2.5 cords will get you through a winter (I'm talking 24/7 heating). I live in Virginia (several latitudes below you) and I will use 2.5-3 cords this winter. I'm not sure about the specifics of your house layout, but if it is in the 60 year old range, I doubt it is a very open floorplan and probably a two story since your in the city. This does not make the best conditions for heating and you end up burning more to compensate. Also at 60 years old I doubt it is very well insulated, unless there have been some serious renovations done. All of the above is purely speculation, but still 2.5 cords seems way low for heating in Ontario.

Second. Let's go with the 2.5 cord assumption. This means you should have 5 cords in your yard. One 2.5 cord for this season and the other 2.5 cord percolating for next season. This is just to stay 1 year ahead. Then you need to consider processing the wood. Where are you going to do your work? 2.5 cords worth of wood are several (at least 3) normal sized trees and limbs (approx. 12-18" dbh). Just for reference I got a load dropped off that ended up being around 2.25 cords split and stacked. When it was dumped off the pile was around 20'x10'. Trunks and branches were all over the place. The wife was not happy, and I have about an acre yard in the suburbs.

You've got a hard road ahead of you, and I'm definitely not trying to convince you in anyway against heating with wood. It's hard, dirty, and time consuming work, but well worth it IMO. The constraints you have will make it way more of a hassle, so I would not set my sights on getting that maximum savings you could see under better conditions. Unless you can find another place to store wood I would focus on getting the best BTU wood available, as much as you can realistically keep in the yard, season it to perfection, and only burn at night. I wouldn't even waste wood getting a fire going in the morning if both you and your wife work. Maybe even alternate days between burning and heating with your gas. Whatever you can do to spread out your burning so that hopefully you can last the season. IMO I would feel better about it than burning all my wood up early and heating the rest of the season with unseasoned wood paying premium prices or strictly using gas.

Other than that...have fun with it and enjoy.

 

[Danno77]

Did I read that you have an 8ft DIAMETER maple that is only 70 years old? are you sure you don't mean 8ft circumference?

 

[SpeakEasy]

I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks a nicely stacked row of firewood is awfully nice to look at! I can sit and just enjoy staring at my stacks. My wife too. It grows on you, especially when you are thinking about how nice and toasty warm you'll be when the snow is flying. If you have neighbors that can't see the beauty in it, then I feel sorry for them. They're missing out.

-Speak

 

[Cluttermagnet]

(duplicate post- sorry)

 

[Cluttermagnet]

Unless I'm missing something here...

Here's how I see it. The potential back fence storage is actually great.
A single course of 16in splits, 6ft tall, works out to about 1.9 cords-
so, 3.8 cords from adding a second course, 5.7 cords 3rd course, etc.

The key is always gradualism. If you take it slowly, you can get
those neighbors used to quite a lot of wood IMO.
But just not all in one year.

So unless there is something you're not telling us.
Is it 'scorched earth' with the neighbors? Some situation
where you know you're never going to get them to like you?

As I see it, half a 30 ft course the first year, 4ft tall. Maybe centered.
2nd year, a full course, 30ft, 4ft tall.
Taking great care, of course, using stakes or other means-
to assure that your stacks cannot press against their fences...
3rd year, 6ft tall except tapering down to 4ft at both ends,
plus maybe add in a small 2nd course, 4ft tall, centered.

And so on. Gradualism is the key. Put the entire 2-3 courses,
6ft tall, all out the first year, you will get comments or worse.

What- are the neighbors Montreal Canadians fans? :ahhh: :lol:

 

[KB007]

Use the fence Luke

If you're worried about the fence, get some pallets and make a 4 sided box using pallets and 2X4's to hold the side of the stack off the fence (and the ends of the stacks).

My neighbour burns in a similar fireplace and uses ~1.5 cords for evening only plus weekend burns. If you're going to go 24X7 you'll definitely use more than that.

Do you have a garage? Once your wood is dry you could consider trying to store some of it in your garage over the winter (that's what the neighbour does, once it's good and dry).

I burn 24X7 in Ottawa (Go Sens Go!) and use 3-4 cords to heat the house.

Moving wood in the winter is a major PIA - did that a couple of years ago and will never do that again. Plus no matter what the vendor tells you, anything you buy now was split last week, or maybe last month. If you find someone who tells you it's seasoned, suggest you take your moisture meter and axe and go check it out before buying. Try to find the space you need to have a rotating 2 yr supply and you will enjoy happy burning.

op_man1 - you must be in Otttawa??

 

[iceman]

I would just tell the neighbor what you plan and ask if they mind.... put a few shrubs on the prop. Line and stack some wood along side it .... if you stack pretty they won't care if its a foot n a half over the fence.... my neighbors hate my wood but 2 nice bushes and 3 6ft evergreen trees all mulched.... haven't heard a peep since

 

[Diabel]

Use the fence Luke

If you're worried about the fence, get some pallets and make a 4 sided box using pallets and 2X4's to hold the side of the stack off the fence (and the ends of the stacks).

My neighbour burns in a similar fireplace and uses ~1.5 cords for evening only plus weekend burns. If you're going to go 24X7 you'll definitely use more than that.

Do you have a garage? Once your wood is dry you could consider trying to store some of it in your garage over the winter (that's what the neighbour does, once it's good and dry).

I burn 24X7 in Ottawa (Go Sens Go!) and use 3-4 cords to heat the house.

Moving wood in the winter is a major PIA - did that a couple of years ago and will never do that again. Plus no matter what the vendor tells you, anything you buy now was split last week, or maybe last month. If you find someone who tells you it's seasoned, suggest you take your moisture meter and axe and go check it out before buying. Try to find the space you need to have a rotating 2 yr supply and you will enjoy happy burning.

op_man1 - you must be in Otttawa??

007,

It looks like you're running two stoves. I burn about 2.5 full cords of good dry hardwood per season 24/7. My lot is small 40x100 but I can store two years worth of wood on it, utilize the space!

 

[MapleLeafCityBurner]

So after a disappointing start to last year... alas, I had to put off the start of my burning. The installer/inspector refused to install my fireplace insert, untill after the chimney was repaired. 3 quotes came in at $2500-$6000 from a partial to a full rebuild. That would not include the $1000 installation cost. So, I had a beautiful insert sitting in my living room all last winter that I was unable to use.

Found a laid off mason worker to redo the top 30 courses of bricks for $1800 this past spring and am currently getting requoted on the installation, probably around $800-$1200. So after 16 months of starting the switch to a Wood-burning insert the tally is as follows:

Napoleon 1402 Wood-burning Insert - $1600
2 Wood Sheds - $500 (materials)
Wood Accessories - $100 (axes, gloves etc)
Chimney Rebuild $1800
Installation - $800
Grand Total $4800

And I still have to buy the wood, which is ash that has been seasoned over a year (preordered) and a bunch of small stuff for around the fireplace, ash bucket, racks/stuff to hold kindling/wood etc.

Not quite what I was hoping, but the chimney repair was needed whether I put in the stove or not.

With an average Gas bill of $1500/yr for the winter, it'll take a few years to make back this investment. Yet I still am anticipating my first fire with glee.

A full cord in my area is going for $280 a cord, which seems expensive, but now I can start focusing on following kijiji and other sites in wood collection.

Just wanted to fill in this story from last year, since I posted at its start and I'm nearing its completion. As I finally reach the final stages, I'll post pictures.

 

[Jaugust124]

Maple, Yes, you spent a lot, but now you're started, so good luck. As I was reading all of this thread, one thing kept coming to mind. If you so not have the storage space in your yard, how about mixing in some biobricks. They can be stored in your basement out of sight of the neighbors and still allow you to burn some wood and get the joy of c/s/s. I know this suggestion is way late, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

 

[weatherguy]

Maple, Yes, you spent a lot, but now you're started, so good luck. As I was reading all of this thread, one thing kept coming to mind. If you so not have the storage space in your yard, how about mixing in some biobricks. They can be stored in your basement out of sight of the neighbors and still allow you to burn some wood and get the joy of c/s/s. I know this suggestion is way late, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

Bio bricks are a good idea or the hearthwise logs, they last a long time, 12+ hours and I think the price wouldnt be too much more than a cord for $280.

http://www.hearthwise.com/page/page/506662.htm

similar product in Canada

http://thepowerlog.com/about-the-power-log.asp

 

[iceman]

Maple, Yes, you spent a lot, but now you're started, so good luck. As I was reading all of this thread, one thing kept coming to mind. If you so not have the storage space in your yard, how about mixing in some biobricks. They can be stored in your basement out of sight of the neighbors and still allow you to burn some wood and get the joy of c/s/s. I know this suggestion is way late, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

Bio bricks are a good idea or the hearthwise logs, they last a long time, 12+ hours and I think the price wouldnt be too much more than a cord for $280.

http://www.hearthwise.com/page/page/506662.htm

similar product in Canada

http://thepowerlog.com/about-the-power-log.asp

Man those hearthwise are awesome! I have driven down your way to get some! But just expensive... But they are worth it ...NO HASSLES..... four of those burn as hot as my stove packed with oak!

 

[Bspring]

In case there are still some questions on this:

"Bringing wood to temperature before burning was something I read in a forum, maybe not this one, but it dealt with efficiency. If its cold, it takes that little bit of extra energy to burn the log, making it a little bit more inefficient than burning a room temperature log."

Keep in mind that the heat to bring the wood up to room temperature must come from somewhere.

 

[weatherguy]

In case there are still some questions on this:

"Bringing wood to temperature before burning was something I read in a forum, maybe not this one, but it dealt with efficiency. If its cold, it takes that little bit of extra energy to burn the log, making it a little bit more inefficient than burning a room temperature log."

Keep in mind that the heat to bring the wood up to room temperature must come from somewhere.

I thought I heard it here too at one time, it doesnt matter to most as most of us bring 3-4 days in ahead of time. I have a weeks worth in a big plastic bin in the basement.

 

[Bspring]

I want to say that wood is a fuel just like oil or gasoline and cold oil or gasoline will put out just as much heat as it would if it were hot. I am not 100% sure of this so I will let someone else comment on it. I do know that from an efficiency point that if you are using wood heat to heat the wood before you burn it there is zero increase in efficiency.

 

[Wood Duck]

I want to say that wood is a fuel just like oil or gasoline and cold oil or gasoline will put out just as much heat as it would if it were hot. I am not 100% sure of this so I will let someone else comment on it. I do know that from an efficiency point that if you are using wood heat to heat the wood before you burn it there is zero increase in efficiency.

You're right - the firewood has to be heated before it burns. Either you can stack it in the living room and heat it up slowly to room temperature using heat from your wood stove, then put it in the stove to heat it the rest of the way to combustion temperature, or you can put cold wood into the stove and heat it up quickly using heat from the wood stove. Either way the heat comes from the fire. In terms of total BTUs used to heat the firewood from outside temperature to combustion temperature the two techniques are the same. On the other hand, adding cold wood to the stove, especially if you add a lot at one time, could perhaps change the efficiency of the fire for a short time and thus reduce overall BTU output, but that doesn't seem like a big deal and I have no way to guess how much energy that would take.

Same goes for oil and gas. Any fuel has to reach combustion temperature before it will burn. Therefore there must be a difference in heat output between cold oil and warm oil. I think the difference is probably very small, but theoretically it exists.

 

[Bspring]

I want to say that wood is a fuel just like oil or gasoline and cold oil or gasoline will put out just as much heat as it would if it were hot. I am not 100% sure of this so I will let someone else comment on it. I do know that from an efficiency point that if you are using wood heat to heat the wood before you burn it there is zero increase in efficiency.

You're right - the firewood has to be heated before it burns. Either you can stack it in the living room and heat it up slowly to room temperature using heat from your wood stove, then put it in the stove to heat it the rest of the way to combustion temperature, or you can put cold wood into the stove and heat it up quickly using heat from the wood stove. Either way the heat comes from the fire. In terms of total BTUs used to heat the firewood from outside temperature to combustion temperature the two techniques are the same. On the other hand, adding cold wood to the stove, especially if you add a lot at one time, could perhaps change the efficiency of the fire for a short time and thus reduce overall BTU output, but that doesn't seem like a big deal and I have no way to guess how much energy that would take.

Same goes for oil and gas. Any fuel has to reach combustion temperature before it will burn. Therefore there must be a difference in heat output between cold oil and warm oil. I think the difference is probably very small, but theoretically it exists.

+1

 

[Flatbedford]

The last time this came up, it was pointed out that bringing the wood from ~20°F to ~ 70°F is only a small % of getting from ~70°F to wood's flashpoint of 572°F and probably doesn't make that much of a difference. During reload the heat output isn't that high anyway, so heating the wood is probably even less important. I am thinking that it is more important that the wood is dry and well seasoned, than if it is at room temp or not.

 

[MapleLeafCityBurner]

First Burn Achieved!

Finally my fireplace was installed 2 days ago and I have had a fire burning almost continuously for about 36 hours.

First I want to thank everyone for their input into this journey Ive been on, what a wild ride but informative with the rest of you chipping in.

The install cost $1180, which was the lowest estimate and there was only 2 installers in this area that would give an insurance certificate for installation, I feel ripped off, but that's the price you pay for getting someone else to do it I guess.

A clarification also, $280 a cord mentioned earlier was actually a full cord 4x4x8 not a face cord. I actually had 5 face cords delivered for $350. $70 a cord. In my area prices range from $50/cord if you pick it up, split and haul away yourself to $90/cord c/s/s delivered. I still have to buy a moisture meter, which I'll do this weekend to measure the wood. The wood delivered was a mixed bag of ash, oak, maple, and hickory. I can tell some of it is definitely more seasoned than others, although I have not had any 'bubbling' wood that Ive noticed yet. So it seems like all of it is seasoned a bit. I was told it was all cut down Oct 2010, and split in the spring 2011.

Also, my house is 60 years old, but has been reinsulated, new windows and doors etc. Its not as sealed tight as a new home, as evidenced by the amazing draft I get off the fireplace, but its alot better than a typical 60 year old home.

I will start to line my fences with wood in order to store upto 2 years worth, the wife/neighbours will just have to live with the consequences. With all the comments in this thread/forum about the must-have dried seasoned at least 2 year old wood, I'm grateful for the advice.

A couple other questions...

I have had 2 nights of full burns, one at 8 hours and another 9 hours. The first night, it burned 8 hours with enough hot coals to rake and throw a couple splits on and it started right up. The second, I had barely enough hot coals and pretty much tried to start from scratch.

My first cold start was horrific and its good the wife wasnt home. Tried bottom up, like a campfire and the smoke was crazy... had to open crosswind windows and put the ceiling fans on, but the fire started no problem. This morning I tried bottom down, newspaper bows, thumb-size kindling of hardwood, and splits on the bottom. I literally ended up throwing in an entire newspaper, then went to my shredder basket and throwing half that on and it still didnt catch the kindling. This was with the draft wide open and the door open 1 inch. Luckily, the few remaining hot coals have actually set the splits afire and I have a decent start again. Top-down there was barely any smoke.

Where did I go wrong on the top down? Should I be using softwood for kindling? Maybe the wood is just not dry enough for kindling?

Is coloured/somewhat glossy paper like flyers really that bad to be using as firestarter?

For an insert what is the best way to measure flue temperature or to measure over-firing?

If I leave the house, should I also close the draft in order to prevent over-firing? Or is it safe to leave it open 1/4-1/3?

Shoulder season burning, should I burn 24/7 with small smoldering fires enough to take the chill out? Or just restart a fire every night after work? I spend about 50% of my time in a home office, so tending throughout the day is usually possible, or I could just use NG during the day.

More advice is greatly appreciated. I will post some pictures up soon.

 

[onetracker]

First Burn Achieved!

Finally my fireplace was installed 2 days ago and I have had a fire burning almost continuously for about 36 hours.

First I want to thank everyone for their input into this journey Ive been on, what a wild ride but informative with the rest of you chipping in.

The install cost $1180, which was the lowest estimate and there was only 2 installers in this area that would give an insurance certificate for installation, I feel ripped off, but that's the price you pay for getting someone else to do it I guess.

A clarification also, $280 a cord mentioned earlier was actually a full cord 4x4x8 not a face cord. I actually had 5 face cords delivered for $350. $70 a cord. In my area prices range from $50/cord if you pick it up, split and haul away yourself to $90/cord c/s/s delivered. I still have to buy a moisture meter, which I'll do this weekend to measure the wood. The wood delivered was a mixed bag of ash, oak, maple, and hickory. I can tell some of it is definitely more seasoned than others, although I have not had any 'bubbling' wood that Ive noticed yet. So it seems like all of it is seasoned a bit. I was told it was all cut down Oct 2010, and split in the spring 2011.

Also, my house is 60 years old, but has been reinsulated, new windows and doors etc. Its not as sealed tight as a new home, as evidenced by the amazing draft I get off the fireplace, but its alot better than a typical 60 year old home.

I will start to line my fences with wood in order to store upto 2 years worth, the wife/neighbours will just have to live with the consequences. With all the comments in this thread/forum about the must-have dried seasoned at least 2 year old wood, I'm grateful for the advice.

A couple other questions...

I have had 2 nights of full burns, one at 8 hours and another 9 hours. The first night, it burned 8 hours with enough hot coals to rake and throw a couple splits on and it started right up. The second, I had barely enough hot coals and pretty much tried to start from scratch.

My first cold start was horrific and its good the wife wasnt home. Tried bottom up, like a campfire and the smoke was crazy... had to open crosswind windows and put the ceiling fans on, but the fire started no problem. This morning I tried bottom down, newspaper bows, thumb-size kindling of hardwood, and splits on the bottom. I literally ended up throwing in an entire newspaper, then went to my shredder basket and throwing half that on and it still didnt catch the kindling. This was with the draft wide open and the door open 1 inch. Luckily, the few remaining hot coals have actually set the splits afire and I have a decent start again. Top-down there was barely any smoke.

Where did I go wrong on the top down? Should I be using softwood for kindling? Maybe the wood is just not dry enough for kindling?

Is coloured/somewhat glossy paper like flyers really that bad to be using as firestarter?

For an insert what is the best way to measure flue temperature or to measure over-firing?

If I leave the house, should I also close the draft in order to prevent over-firing? Or is it safe to leave it open 1/4-1/3?

Shoulder season burning, should I burn 24/7 with small smoldering fires enough to take the chill out? Or just restart a fire every night after work? I spend about 50% of my time in a home office, so tending throughout the day is usually possible, or I could just use NG during the day.

More advice is greatly appreciated. I will post some pictures up soon.

what in the heck is a top down fire?
that's right up there with bush cord!

btw- welcome to the forum

OT

 

[scotvl]

Maple congrats on the insert install you will soon be looking everywhere for wood driving you're wife nuts. I live in Windsor in the city and this time of year I would sugjest sticking to the night time burns until you get a little more experience with the insert. Nothing like smoking out the neighbours doing yard work the first week you get the stove. Good luck and stay safe

 

[mecreature]

I am no good at a top down burn either. Not sure why. must be my crummy wood.


there is a video floating around I got from someone on this site showing a top down burn.

I know not where.


congrats on the install

 

[MapleLeafCityBurner]

what in the heck is a top down fire?
that's right up there with bush cord!

btw- welcome to the forum

OT

Top down refers to how a fire is started. Traditional is bottom up, meaning you build the fire from the bottom up, paper, kindling, splits. Whereas top down is splits on the bottom, followed by kindling and paper on the top, generally used in closed stoves.

 

[red oak]

When I start a fire top-down I see almost no smoke come out of the chimney at all. When I start it bottom up I do see smoke coming out of the chimney for a few minutes until the fire heats up. I don't think it makes much difference really - neither one is harder to start than the other. From the way you describe your top down fire, it sounds like your wood may not have been dry enough. As far as shoulder season goes, I also think overnight fires are the best - just enough to take the chill off. And when I leave the house during winter, I do in fact leave the draft about 1/4 of the way open. If I'll be back in an hour or two I may leave it open more. But you should experiment with your stove to see what works best for you - it's taken me over 10 years to learn how mine works best!