New code requirememts Concerning CO regulations

[elkimmeg]

"Carbon Monoxide detectors will be required for all new fuel burning appliances, including wood, pellet, coal,stoves, gas logs
or gas fireplaces in addition to furnaces or boilers and gas hot water heaters"

This revises NFPA-54 section 10.5.4.2 with a second exception as follows:
Existing chimney shall be permitted to have their use continued when a gas conversion burner is installed and shall be
equipped with a manually reset device that will automatically shut off gas to the burner in the event of a sustained back- draft

B) for direct -vent applainces, mechanical-vent heating appliances or domestic hot water equipment where the bottom vent terminal
and the air intake is installed above 4 above grade the following requirements must be satisfied

1. If there is not one already present, on each floor level where there are bedroom(s), a carbon monoxide detector and alarm shall be placed
in the living are outside the bedroom (s) The carbon monoxide detector shall comply with NFPA 720 (2005 Edition)

2. A carbon monoxide detector shall:

a. Be in the room that houses the appliance or equipment

b. Be either hard wired or battery powered or both; and

c. shall comply with NFPA 720 (2005 Edition)

3. A product-approved vent termination must be used,and if applicable, a Product-approved air intake must be used.
Installation shall be in strict compliance with the manufacturer's instructions. A copy of the installation instructions
shall remain with the appliance or equipment at the completion of the installation

This was d adopted in the state of ma but also amended to the 2005/2006 NFPA Which now has been recognized by the International code body
Meaning it is now part of every state that has adopted the International Code Base Which all states have adopted

I typed it in from a hard copy sitting in front of me. There are similar regulations for vents below 4' to ground, except a sign above them must clearly state a vent exist below.
Monoxide regulations are the same it saved me from more typing. And some may note, my typing skills need a little work

This is so important, it could save your life. Can this be entered into a sticky note?

 

[jtp10181]

You are saying if a Direct Vent term cap is within 4' of the ground you need a sign above it on the outside of the house! The CO detector I understand, but thats just silly with the sign.

 

[GVA]

You are saying if a Direct Vent term cap is within 4' of the ground you need a sign above it on the outside of the house! The CO detector I understand, but thats just silly with the sign.

Well here in New England we've had a couple of deaths because of snow drifts that covered the exhaust, so I guess the sign would kinda help the clueless homeowner (which there are alot of) and remind them to keep the vent clear...

 

[jtp10181]

On direct vent? Did they take the glass off to roast marshmallows in it or something? With all our DV fireplaces if I went and put a bag over the vent and turned it on the whole thing would starve for O2 in about 5 seconds and go out, taking the pilot with it. In fact it has happened (damn EFIS installers, and service tech who didn't go outside and look).

 

[webbie]

More likely deaths were from units (furnaces) with single output vents (power) - although they also should shut off - but then again if they terminate into the basement because the end is clogged, it will spew CO there.

But, again, a DV should just shut off. Does anyone have an actual situation where a properly installed DV has killed someone because of snow or other clog?

The sign is sort of interesting, because it assumes someone is going to be outside when the snow is four foot deep - and reading/reacting to the sign! I doubt it....

CO detectors should be in EVERY house that burns ANY fuel (in any appliance).

 

[elkimmeg]

For some reason the ox depletion devices failed to initiate shut down and a family died in Plymouth MA.

At some point the homeowners have to take some responsibility and clear the vents The idiot signs are required so that they can't say tey were not warned.

The codes used to call for x distance above normal snow depth Problem nobody knows what a normal snow depth is and it becomes useless when we get 3' storms with 10 drifts

The home for the NFPA is in Quincy Ma., which might explain why they adapted the regulations. Quincy is a few town to the north of Plymouth and this story made national news.

Craig unfortunately a family died under the very circumstances we are discussing. The law was named after the little girl who died in the inciden.t I can't remember the name.
Maybe GVA or keyman can remember The same week 5 BU student died because of a snow covered vent .Which happened after a 30+" snow storm in the winter of 2004/2005

 

[GVA]

"B) for direct -vent applainces, mechanical-vent heating appliances or domestic hot water equipment where the bottom vent terminal
and the air intake is installed above 4 above grade the following requirements must be satisfied

I was going by this for direct vent where the exhaust could be blocked and still have an open fresh air intake.
And I believe it was a direct vent furnace or two.....
I'm not including the generators that were run inside during power failures... :red:

 

[jtp10181]

How about we just put a sign over the front door that say something like "USE YOUR BRAIN, DON'T BE STUPID!" or "IF YOU WANT TO LIVE LONGER, THINK!"

That more in ref to the generators. The furnaces I can see where you would not think about the vent outside and it would just come on. Now if the furnace was serviced yearly maybe the faulty sensor would have been fixed? That's why manufacturers recommend yearly check-ups on things like that. BTW I have never has my furnace serviced :red:

 

[elkimmeg]

JtP I agree some codes are idiot codes mostly disclaimers for liability. We exist in a sue happy nation where Insurance co have to find fault and sue to cover losses

But lets not detract from the message, Co detectors could save lives. Hell I'm just the messenger here ,not the author of the code..

the #1 poisoning in USA is Carbon Monoxide, so early detection can save lives. It may be stupid common sense ,but if it saves lives we all are better off

 

[webbie]

It would be nice to know what type of appliance was involved in the death. ODS systems are only on unvented appliances (I think), while DV units use a number of systems (proving heat, too much heat at a place, etc.) in order to shut down.

Only by carefully looking at the exact situation can we see the truth behind the matter.....does not change the need for CO detectors, but would give some insight on how things work.

 

[jtp10181]

I totally agree with the CO detectors. I just think the sign thing is silly.

 

[GVA]

A sign is silly but I look at machines at work, and ones that I have built that are covered with signs telling people to keep their hands away and people still get digits cut off......I'll post an example maybe tomorrow if you like..

But here is a sign for you.....
anyone with kids knows after reading this, what do you think they are gonna do???????????




It's up now had to resend it to myself

 

[MrGriz]

That's a classic GVA! I completely agree that anyone with a fuel burning appliance in the house should have CO detectors. To me that's just common sense, not something that needs to be regulated, but I guess you just can't take things for granted any more.

It seems to me that what many regulations, codes and laws are being designed to do today is legislate good old fashioned common sense. Are we really getting that dumb as a country that we have to be hand held through life in every area?

Had to add this. I did have to chuckle at my wife when we moved into our current home. I came upstairs one day and there was the CO detector from our old house plugged in the hall just outside the bedrooms. It's funnier when you know that our new home has no gas piped to it at all, at the time had no stove. Everything was run on electricity.

 

[elkimmeg]

Link to the sad deaths of a 10myear old girl the bill passed was known as the Emily bill

(broken link removed)

 

[Gibbonboy]

It seems to me that what many regulations, codes and laws are being designed to do today is legislate good old fashioned common sense. Are we really getting that dumb as a country that we have to be hand held through life in every area?

Yes, yes we are.

If you can, watch Idiocracy by Mike Judge. I first thought "what a stupid movie", then started to see where he was taking the story. I now believe that such a thing is possible, if not likely.

 

[Metal]

CO detectors are a great thing the signs are a little silly. Quick question though, would you rather have a law or a disease named after you? Either way it usually seems to turn out bad for the person.

 

[webbie]

Link to the sad deaths of a 10myear old girl the bill passed was known as the Emily bill

(broken link removed)

As I figured, it was a probably a single power vent from a furnace.

Even those have a number safety mechanisms on them. It would interesting to know what went wrong. It's hard to imagine that UL and AGA do not test a vent like this by clogging it.

I agree with the code, BTW. At the same time, I don't think we should have a new code every time someone dies - that would create a boondoggle. Rather the problem should be studied and fixed in the best way. Maybe these vents need a better type of termination. Maybe the inspector should check all these furnaces for shut-down (close the vent).

The CO detector is the "last resort" - it sure would be nice for the "fix" to be before that.

 

[kwburn]

what a horrible story. that poor family.

i'm curious for those of you with experience if under normal circumstances the exhaust from a gas furnace melts the snow around exhaust pipe much faster than it could ever build up? obviously how often it is kicking on makes a difference. i see in the article that they lost power which obviously gave the storm time to overtake the exhaust pipe.

maybe i'm off base on saying this but there really should be some sort of program out there to get CO detectors into peoples hands at cost or maybe even under cost somehow. the average person see's smoke detectors for $5-10 and CO detectors for double or triple that and if they are strapped financially just trying to feed their family they probably don't put it in their shopping cart.

 

[fbelec]

the signs may be silly but i can't keep track of how many times i've been to a house that has there heat vented out the side of the house and the home owner says what is that silly thing. or you get there and the burner is not working. it shut itself down because the vent got blocked with ice from it's own condensation. now if there were signs at the vent dummys could figure out that gee maybe i should break off that ice before it blocks the whole vent.

 

[Gibbonboy]

maybe i'm off base on saying this but there really should be some sort of program out there to get CO detectors into peoples hands at cost or maybe even under cost somehow. the average person see's smoke detectors for $5-10 and CO detectors for double or triple that and if they are strapped financially just trying to feed their family they probably don't put it in their shopping cart.

We are involved with a local TV station and local fire departments to give out smoke detectors for free. We just got CO meters into the hands of fire departments last year, until then only one or two had them on the apparatus. I work in a 911 center, you can't fathom how many people die because they didn't pay the 3 bucks for a new 9-volt battery in the detector. Short of going to every house every 6 months and checking and replacing batteries, there will always be those who can't be bothered to take the time to protect themselves and their family, because "it won't happen to me!". And these aren't the poor and nearly homeless, I'm talking about $300K+ homes and people whose car payments are more than I make in a month.

CO detector false positives are our most common fire call here in the winter. We have had several occurrances where the residents were nearly unconcious when the firefighters arrived, just from low-level exposure over several days. Also always suspect when "everyone" in a house is suddenly taken with flu-like symptoms, we question them about CO detectors. Many times they don't have one, and also have either an old furnace or are using open-combustion heaters inside the home. You can only do so much to legislate safety.

 

[fbelec]

maybe i'm off base on saying this but there really should be some sort of program out there to get CO detectors into peoples hands at cost or maybe even under cost somehow. the average person see's smoke detectors for $5-10 and CO detectors for double or triple that and if they are strapped financially just trying to feed their family they probably don't put it in their shopping cart.

We are involved with a local TV station and local fire departments to give out smoke detectors for free. We just got CO meters into the hands of fire departments last year, until then only one or two had them on the apparatus. I work in a 911 center, you can't fathom how many people die because they didn't pay the 3 bucks for a new 9-volt battery in the detector. Short of going to every house every 6 months and checking and replacing batteries, there will always be those who can't be bothered to take the time to protect themselves and their family, because "it won't happen to me!". And these aren't the poor and nearly homeless, I'm talking about $300K+ homes and people whose car payments are more than I make in a month.

CO detector false positives are our most common fire call here in the winter. We have had several occurrances where the residents were nearly unconcious when the firefighters arrived, just from low-level exposure over several days. Also always suspect when "everyone" in a house is suddenly taken with flu-like symptoms, we question them about CO detectors. Many times they don't have one, and also have either an old furnace or are using open-combustion heaters inside the home. You can only do so much to legislate safety.

maybe while they're in the hospital for exposure they can get a brain transplant.
it's way more important to make the payment on the 500 s series than be bothered with minor detail's

 

[elkimmeg]

This was voted in by our congressmen and senators and signed by our Gov There was little opposition the the bill
The people decided it was necessary Not us code officials or code writers this was part of a law passed requiring Carbon Monoxide detectors in every residence nd place of busness That had combustion appliances in the building. Naturally not required for electric heat and appliances
As of April 15 2005 Carbon monoxide detectors are mandatory.

The fire depts are called in with the closing of every home to test the smoke detectors and to test the Monoxide detectors. If none are present, then no certificate of compliance The banks will not pass papers

I have a soft rubber ball I stuff in the vent if the system fails to shut down the final mechanical inspection fails. On the smaller vents I use a tennis ball . They do not shut down right away I have to go back sometimes 3/4 hours later to confirm the shut down and the burners have to be manually reset . Yes there is someone out there checking on these issues

Not a bad idea for the homeowner to check out their own system and get to know how to manually reset it. Like changing batteries in smoke detectors and testing them.

right now I am trying to get code to require automatic shutdown of air furnaces upon smoke detection alarm. This would increase containment and not spread deadly fumes threw out the system

The NFPA is also sponsoring this initiative

 

[TresK3]

Several times a year our church goes house-to-house giving out 9-volt batteries for detectors. We even offer to install them for the elderly. We can't hit every home in our city, but we do a lot. Some of you might think about starting something like this in your churches.

 

[Gibbonboy]

Several times a year our church goes house-to-house giving out 9-volt batteries for detectors. We even offer to install them for the elderly. We can't hit every home in our city, but we do a lot. Some of you might think about starting something like this in your churches.

Actually, I'm going to do just that tonight. Thanks for the idea!

Elk, I think it's a great initiative to have furnace shutdown on alarm, but we need to get properly installed alarms first. Personally, I'd like to see more widespread requirements for residential sprinklers. I've seen the drastic reductions in "total loss" fires in areas that have enacted such regulations. Every little bit helps. I realize that you can't legislate common sense, but some people need to be educated and then guided to follow the rules just for the sake of the children and others that they're responsible for, even if they don't see the need to.

 

[TresK3]

Speaking of CO detectors... We had our new FPX 33-Elite insert installed last week and now I need to put up the first CO detector. I realize we SHOULD have one outside every sleeping area etc, but where is the best place to start? Our layout has the fireplace in the first floor living room. There is a bedroom on that level, but it's around the corner and down a hall. There are two bedrooms upstairs. I'm thinking either put the detector in the room where the fireplace is or in the entry foyer between the stairway and the hall to the first floor bedroom.

Thoughts?