New free-standing stove purchase, here are the candidates

[CWD]

Hi everybody,

First let me say I’m grateful to all the mods (and rockers) and the contributors here, this site is a great resource, especially for somebody who lives far off the beaten track. And where I live is what the old-timers call “halfway to hell and gone.”

I’m up in the mountains, 7800 ft above sea level, in an 1,800 sq. ft. 2-story log home built in 1915. I’ve been heating with wood pretty much my whole life – I’ve always cut and split my own wood and thought I understood wood-burning stoves pretty well, until recently. I burn a mixture of cottonwood, fir, some spruce, a bit of aspen (especially nice for starting), seasoned 2 years if possible, but 1 year at least. In this dry mountain climate a year is plenty.

I grew up with a Franklin stove, and in 1990 installed a Regency R6 which served me very well for 20+ years, until the seams just started to get too tired and I figured it was time to replace it. In 2011 I decided to go with a DutchWest Medium cast iron (non-CAT) and it was nothing but trouble. The draft was negligible even when the stove top was 600 degrees – the door to the ash drawer had to be open all the time or the fire smoldered and died. The local dealer (out here “local” means 2-1/2 hours away) was no help, just kept saying “that's not right” but offered no solutions. Their stance was that I had inadequate venting for the “newer” type stoves, although their tech inspected my pipe/chimney and saw no problems, said it should be just fine. Here's my venting setup:
6" pipe
2 ft. up from stove
90° elbow
2-1/2 ft. to exterior log wall
15' up the outside of the house
chimney cap 6.5 ft clear of the rooftop

All the pipe is new. The outside pipe is double-walled insulated.

The stove location is in the northwest corner of the first floor (basement is unfinished, and accessible only by outside entrance). The DutchWest sat in exactly the same location as the old Regency, with new inside pipe.

I never had a problem getting a good fire going and keeping coals overnight with the R6, even when the temps dropped to -25F for a week. It had a single (front center) draft control, and a flue damper on the pipe collar, which I could use to extend the burns overnight. As long as I kept my spark arrester screen clean on the chimney cap the stove drew beautifully. (There's no shortage of available draft in my 100-yr old log house – not exactly what you'd call tight!) The R6 had a great big (2" diameter) punch-out hole in the rear of the pedestal to draw air, while the DutchWest had 2 tiny, almost-impossible-to-find channels along either side of the firebox base (the dealer's tech had trouble even locating them). It just couldn’t get enough draft to sustain a burn unless the ash door was open. And reloading always provided smoky back-draft.

After two and a half years of my asking for help, and two useless service calls by their tech, the dealer refunded the purchase price and removed the DutchWest. So now I’m back to shopping for a replacement. I’ve spent a couple of weeks reading the reviews and discussions here and elsewhere trying to get familiarized with the newer technologies.

So here's my primary question:
Am I going to encounter the same lack of draft with all new ie "EPA" stoves, that they won't draw lungfulls of air like my old Regency beast? Or was the DutchWest just a dog?

I’d like to pay under $2,000 for a new stove (I paid about $1750 for the Dutchwest). So after two weeks of research here are my current candidates:

1. Regency F2400 - $1,949 (installed)
2. Osburn 2000 / 2400 - $1,739 / $1,919 (installed)

3. Drolet Myriad - $849 (400 mile round trip to pick it up, install it myself)
4. Englander 50-TNC30 - $849 for B-stock, $1099 new + $75 curb-side delivery, I install
5. Englander 50-TNC13T - $788 new, + $75 curb-side delivery

I like the Drolets but I don’t like those welded baffles I’ve been hearing about.
My hesitation about the Englanders is a couple of reviews I read elsewhere saying it was a nightmare trying to get the fire started for lack of draft – something that’s hard to draft is the last thing I want!

The only (other) dealer I've got (also 2-1/2 hours away) carries the Regency and Osburn. It would cost a bit more buying from a dealer but he would do the installation, he seems trustworthy and experienced (he has a Regency F3100 in his home and told me the cons of that stove, namely the trouble he had reinstalling the front burn tube after cleaning). And if the new stove purchase turns out to be another balls-up like the Dutch West I would sure like somebody to take responsibility and help me find a solution.

Well that’s my story and I’m stickin to it.
I sure appreciate any and all input, suggestions, comments.

Thanks!
Chill(y) Cowboy

 

[BrotherBart]

Welcome.

At that altitude it is surprising that even the Regency could maintain a decent draft. 15' is just "adequate" at sea level. The higher you go the higher the pipe needs to go because of atmospheric density.

The EPA certified stoves demand strong draft to pull primary and secondary air through the manifolds where the old stoves just sucked it straight into the fire through the opening in the front of the stove.

 

[begreen]

A downdraft stove like the Dutchwest non-cat is the opposite of what you need. I'd look into as easy breathing stove as you can get. The Pacific Energy line of stoves have short air passages which should help. I would look at the Super 27 to stay in budget range. If you like the stove you can order one from WA and have it shipped from https://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacsup27.htm. But also check to see if you local lumber or hardware store can order one for you. (Is AD Martin Lumber near by?)
Another easier breathing stove would be a catalytic model like a BlazeKing Sirocco, but that will cost a lot more.

To help draft I'd also consider softening that 90 degree turn with a pair of 45's and a short offset. It would look something like this.


AD Martin Lumber
302 E Ramshorn
Dubois, WY, 82513
307.856.9229

Fireplace Outfitters
408 E Oak Steet
Pocatello, ID, 83201
208.232.2240

 

[Grisu]

Do you have a Sutherlands not too far away? They are already selling to new Englander Madison which does not thermal protection in the hearth, has a 2.4 cu ft firebox and costs ~$900. No reports yet how well it drafts though.

Otherwise, I agree with BB and BG. With just 17' of vertical rise and a 90 elbow and long horizontal run your draft will not be adequate. You will probably need to add some pipe, modify the 90 as BG suggested and maybe an outside air kit (OAK) would also help.

 

[jeff_t]

I'll agree that my PE is a very easy breather. I have 8' of class A, and connector pipe to a 7.5' ceiling, so right around 13', and it is more than enough. It drafts well right off the bat, even when outside temp is above inside temp.

I don't expect the PE Super Series to be enough stove for your climate and home construction, though. I'd be looking at the Summit if it's within budget.

 

[begreen]

Agreed, if this were my house I would be getting a Summit.

 

[CWD]

Thanks, friends. I've been thinking that two 45's would be better than the 90, and I could add some overall height to the pipe without too much trouble.

begreen, I'd checked AD Martin's - the Super 27 was one of my first thoughts but they want $2193 - plus $175 shipping. The chinmneysweep has it for just under $1700 but the shipping will probably bring it up to $2000. Martin's can get me a PE True North for $1,015 (plus ship). Any thoughts on how the True North would do for my setup and location? I've seen good reviews on it.

I've seen the Sirocco 20 for under $1,300 - without door, base or legs. Which is a new way to buy a stove for me.

Is the consensus that I will have the same drafting problems with an Osburn or Regency that I had with the DutchWest? The dealer lives at 5,300 ft above sea level and seems to be having good luck with the Regencys.

I appreciate all the expertise.

 

[begreen]

All of the stoves mentioned are ~2 cu ft. including the TN19. They will heat the place well when temps are say 15F and above but you probably will need to supplement with the main heat below those temps or stoke the stove frequently. That is why the recommendation for the PE Summit. In BK I would be looking at the Sirocco 30.
The alternative is to spend about $2-300 increasing the chimney height by 6-8ft. so that there is sufficient draft. That would open up more options. I'm not sure if that would be a possibility. The chimney would have to be well braced. If yes, at that point I would look at the Drolet HT2000. It's a good strong heater and has a removable C-Cast (ceramic) baffle.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200316353_200316353
http://www.drolet.ca/en/products/wood/ht2000-with-pedestal

 

[Poindexter]

I think adding some pipe height is probably gonna help any stove with what you have described.

Do you know your degree loss per hour when the stove goes out? How fast does your house cool off when the stove goes out? What i am getting at is it sounds like there is plenty of intake air available, just not enough pipe height or heat for your stove to draft well.

Keeping an outdoor chimney hot enough to draw good burns a lot of wood.

 

[CWD]

Hi Poindexter. I don't know the degree loss by hour, but when the fire went out in my old R6 - and the mountain winds are up, which we get a lot of up here in Wyoming - the house cools down right now, especially on that north side of the house where it receives no strong winter sun. I would guess that I lose ten degrees in an hour if that wind is blowing.

I see that the chimneysweeponline really likes the PE line and I'm going to write to them. I've just come across the Kuma brand which is family-owned and made in Idaho, and I'm thinking of contacting them and seeing what experience they have in high-elevation installations. There's also a Morso and Jotul dealer in Jackson Hole, which is at 6000+ ft., and the surrounding areas are even higher, so I'll call them and ask their recommendations, too. It seems the most popular brands in Colorado and Montana are the Jotul, Morso, PE, and Kuma.

begreen, I just read the good description of downdraft stoves here (https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/downdraft-stove-operation/). Now I understand why I had so much trouble with the Dutchwest. I wish I - or the Dutchwest dealer - had known about downdraft technology! Thanks for that info.

Color me... less certain than when I started...!

 

[Grisu]

The biggest Morso has only a 2 cu ft firebox; I don't think that will be enough for you. The Kuma Sequoia is a pretty powerful heater but will require an 8" flue. Regarding the Jotul, take as look at the F55, that should be a bit cheaper than the F600. However, you are now looking at stoves above $2000.

If the PE Summit is anything like the Super it would be good stove to give you sufficient draft. I have my Super insert on a 13' liner and it drafts beautifully.

 

[CWD]

Thanks, Grisu. I'll look at the F55.
The folks at chimneysweep told me the Summit is their high-elevation stove - my place would come in 4th-highest on their altitude list, and they say the results have been good, they call it a "soft drafter."
I don't think the 2K limit is looking very feasible at this point. Rather spend more and get it right.

 

[begreen]

Agreed with the chimneysweep's assessment. They are good folks and know their stoves. PE stoves are easy breathers. I also agree with your assessment. Get the right stove for the job. Another $500 is minor over the life of a stove.

 

[CWD]

Thanks for all the advice, it's a big help. I'll be pulling the trigger this week.
Zeroing in on the Jotul F55 and the PE Summit.

I can get an F55 locally (well, 3 hours away, over the continental divide) for about $2400.
The PE Summit with shipping will cost me about $2800.
Any thoughts on the differences in performance between these two?

I could also pick up a new Super 27 for just under $1600. But is that enough stove?
I've had a couple people tell me the PE Summit is too much stove for my house - the room it's going in, although housing an open stairwell to the 2nd floor and big open archway to the kitchen, is only about 250 sq. ft. with 8' (pine) ceiling. They say the Super 27 would be a better fit. Personally I'd rather have the big firebox but I know these new stoves are a lot more efficient than what I'm used to. Any thoughts?

There's still the option of the Regency F2400 for just under 2K installed (that one hasn't been getting any votes so far, which surprises me a little).

Thanks

 

[begreen]

The key issue here is your altitude. I think the Summit will be the easier breathing of the two. The Summit runs fine with a partial load of wood. I have a friend that heats exclusively with theirs. It has only a 12 ft chimney and is far from an ideal setup, yet the stove burns quite well. It will burn nicely with just a few logs in milder weather. We have the same firebox in the T6 which sits in our living room. We've never been overheated by the stove and I don't like the living room to get over 75F.