New grinder!

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jetsam

Minister of Fire
Dec 12, 2015
5,283
Long Island, NY
youtu.be
What are you using to get them all to the same height?
Do you have a stop or....
Thanks

If you don't have any Vanguard chains to sharpen, you may not know what I'm talking about here.... Vanguard is Oregon's attempt at making a high performance safety chain. It performs better than most other safety chains, but is widely disliked because adjusting the rakers is a nightmare with a file, and you can even be there a long time with a grinder!

The raker height is adjusted later on the chain grinder or with a file.

The angle grinder is just de-Vanguarding the chain so you CAN adjust the rakers.

If you don't want the rakers to be too hard for a file, use a diamond cutoff wheel... a stone gets them too hot unless you spend an hour doing a chain.


Stihl semichisel from the to-be-sharpened pile

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Vanguard chain from the to-be-de-Vanguarded pile

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20210301_145149.jpg

De-Vanguarded Vanguard chain

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How does the new De-Vanguarded Vanguard chain cut ?
 

salecker

Minister of Fire
Aug 22, 2010
1,482
Northern Canada
i see now you were just taking off the 90 degree part and were not messing with the height...
 

jetsam

Minister of Fire
Dec 12, 2015
5,283
Long Island, NY
youtu.be
How does the new De-Vanguarded Vanguard chain cut ?

I'll keep you posted... I've done 3 so far and they've been good on test cuts- but none of them were new chains.

I suspect that a brand new chain will be grabby after grinding because of the sudden loss of raker height (you lose the thickness of the raker in height because it is peened over).

Best practice might be to sharpen it without raker adjustment until you can't stand it anymore and then de-Vanguard it? That's my plan if I ever get a new loop (which is possible because it's what the husky dealer sells my poor neighbor. They sell him full chisel to use in frozen oak too, it's a double whammy because now he has to sharpen all the time, and he can't file the rakers...)

I know I won't be buying any of the stuff...

I decided to de-vanguard it after I saw a video of Wilhelm from the ope forums cutting with a Vanguard chain that he ground down on a bench grinder (pause it when he holds the bar up to the camera and you can see). I should mention that I searched for such a video because I first tried to adjust those rakers from the top using a grinder, and it takes forever even if you go too fast and overheat them.

Don't think they allow us to link the other forum, but you know what Google is, and here's the video. Pop over and say thanks to Wilhelm if you like it!

 
Last edited:

jetsam

Minister of Fire
Dec 12, 2015
5,283
Long Island, NY
youtu.be
i see now you were just taking off the 90 degree part and were not messing with the height...

Correct. Due to the shape of the raker, you will lose some height when you do this grind even though you're not touching the vertical part.

So I think it will probably make a brand new chain grabby, but I haven't had a new one to test. It's been fine on used chains.

The main benefit is that now you can adjust it with a file or grinder in future. (Well, you can adjust it with a file if you didn't overheat it and get it harder than the file!) Use a diamond cutoff to avoid smoking it if you want to hand file.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,146
Downeast Maine
Correct. Due to the shape of the raker, you will lose some height when you do this grind even though you're not touching the vertical part.

So I think it will probably make a brand new chain grabby, but I haven't had a new one to test. It's been fine on used chains.

The main benefit is that now you can adjust it with a file or grinder in future. (Well, you can adjust it with a file if you didn't overheat it and get it harder than the file!) Use a diamond cutoff to avoid smoking it if you want to hand file.
I can't believe those chains sell. What crazy people like them?
 

jetsam

Minister of Fire
Dec 12, 2015
5,283
Long Island, NY
youtu.be
I can't believe those chains sell. What crazy people like them?

They're probably very popular with the throw-it-away-and-get-a-new-one crowd.

OEMs ought to love them because they cut much better than traditional safety chains, but still qualify as a safety chain (so they are allowed to hang one on a new saw for retail sale).

I would take them happily if someone wanted to give them to me for free, but I wouldn't pay money for one. I can turn one into a normal chain in a few minutes now.... BUT if I'm buying a new loop, why pick one that I have to grind parts off of before I use it??

Honestly, my chainsaw sickness may spiral out of control until I am buying spools instead of loops soon anyway. ;lol
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,146
Downeast Maine
Both of my Husqvarna saws that I bought new can with round ground full chisel chain without safety links, just regular chain. My tiny Stihl MS-150 came with semi chisel safety chain. Do box stores usually have the Vanguard chain?
 

Easy Livin’ 3000

Minister of Fire
Dec 23, 2015
2,920
SEPA
Both of my Husqvarna saws that I bought new can with round ground full chisel chain without safety links, just regular chain. My tiny Stihl MS-150 came with semi chisel safety chain. Do box stores usually have the Vanguard chain?
That would be my guess. I got my husky through the mail with hotel points, so I don't know what retailer it came from. It is a rancher, came with vanguard chain. Another possibility is the saws marketed to homeowners are more likely to come with safety chain, the pro saws come with standard. Just a hypothesis based on very little data.
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,146
Downeast Maine
That would be my guess. I got my husky through the mail with hotel points, so I don't know what retailer it came from. It is a rancher, came with vanguard chain. Another possibility is the saws marketed to homeowners are more likely to come with safety chain, the pro saws come with standard. Just a hypothesis based on very little data.
Makes sense. I ordered my 460 (rancher) from a saw shop and bought my 395xp mill saw in person at the dealer. The 460 was my first saw and if it came with Vanguard chain I would probably just give up on it too.
 

Easy Livin’ 3000

Minister of Fire
Dec 23, 2015
2,920
SEPA
Makes sense. I ordered my 460 (rancher) from a saw shop and bought my 395xp mill saw in person at the dealer. The 460 was my first saw and if it came with Vanguard chain I would probably just give up on it too.
The ranchers are capable saws (455 here), but my are they heavy. I got a 16" bar to supplement the 20" that came with it, and with those carlton chains, it's a pretty good cutter.

Those carlton chains are aggressive and grabby. Have to really hold onto the saw.

I'm eventually going to cut the vanguard chains from 20 down to fit the 16" bar, so I have fewer links to deal with. I find 16" does 90% of my normal day to day cutting, and saves a ton of work when it comes time to sharpen.
 
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Diabel

Minister of Fire
Jan 11, 2008
3,287
Ottawa, ON
I now understand what @jetsam was trying to accomplish. Thank you.

On a side note (might be going off topic), my MS261c came with 18” stihl safety chain. I was a bit surprised. I suppose the pros, when they buy these saws know better and ask for non-safety chains. Or maybe, when I went to the Stihl pro shop to order one, I was wearing sun glasses, t-shirt, shorts and flip-flops......
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,146
Downeast Maine
The ranchers are capable saws (455 here), but my are they heavy. I got a 16" bar to supplement the 20" that came with it, and with those carlton chains, it's a pretty good cutter.

Those carlton chains are aggressive and grabby. Have to really hold onto the saw.

I'm eventually going to cut the vanguard chains from 20 down to fit the 16" bar, so I have fewer links to deal with. I find 16" does 90% of my normal day to day cutting, and saves a ton of work when it comes time to sharpen.
Mine wears a 20" bar and it is indeed a boat anchor. I just use my Stihl MS150 top hand saw for 90% of my work now. It has a 12" bar with 1/4 pitch chain and I use it to buck most of my firewood and I've been felling trees under 14" with it lately. Since I mill anything that will give me at least a 4x4 the tiny Stihl does a lot of work. The 460 only comes out if I get the little saw pinched or need to fell a larger tree. If I ever get another saw it will be whatever Stihl comes out with to replace the MS150.

Currently I'm preparing to build a larger livestock pen that occupies a little over an acre of forest area and I'm thinning every tree within 15-20' of any mature trees. My hope is to stimulate growth of plants favored by browsing type livestock (think goats, alpacas, donkeys but also have some nice trees. The total fenced area will be about two acres and the forested area was logged back in the 60's. The trees left by the loggers are now beautiful mature trees and in between are tons of young growth, mostly under 12" diameter. I will have plenty of fence post and rail material!
 

jetsam

Minister of Fire
Dec 12, 2015
5,283
Long Island, NY
youtu.be
Mine wears a 20" bar and it is indeed a boat anchor. I just use my Stihl MS150 top hand saw for 90% of my work now. It has a 12" bar with 1/4 pitch chain and I use it to buck most of my firewood and I've been felling trees under 14" with it lately. Since I mill anything that will give me at least a 4x4 the tiny Stihl does a lot of work. The 460 only comes out if I get the little saw pinched or need to fell a larger tree. If I ever get another saw it will be whatever Stihl comes out with to replace the MS150.

Currently I'm preparing to build a larger livestock pen that occupies a little over an acre of forest area and I'm thinning every tree within 15-20' of any mature trees. My hope is to stimulate growth of plants favored by browsing type livestock (think goats, alpacas, donkeys but also have some nice trees. The total fenced area will be about two acres and the forested area was logged back in the 60's. The trees left by the loggers are now beautiful mature trees and in between are tons of young growth, mostly under 12" diameter. I will have plenty of fence post and rail material!

Try a 20" bar on the little saw for limbing and bucking small stuff. Sure it wastes some power, but it makes your back so much happier, and how much power do you need for that? My 30cc Echo wears a 20 most of the time, and I am thinking about looking for a longer one.

I spent a good chunk of my childhood walking barb wire fence.... brings back memories.

Be careful what you take for posts... softwood (excepting cedar) doesn't last long in the ground. Cedar does okay, locust and hedge do better.

If I was running electric barb wire today, I would only use pressure treated 4x4 or live trees for corner posts, and I'd make sure that long runs had a similar 'good' post every so often. Finding livestock and getting them back in a pasture can be a lot more work than fixing the fence they got out of, and most wood posts rot off where they meet the ground within a few years. Live trees can last a really long time as a fencepost, but you don't get to pick their location, you have to keep them trimmed off the wire, and they eventually grow around the insulator. (And then someday somebody finds the old insulator and bolt with a chainsaw, which takes us right back to the grinder topic. ;) )
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,146
Downeast Maine
Try a 20" bar on the little saw for limbing and bucking small stuff. Sure it wastes some power, but it makes your back so much happier, and how much power do you need for that? My 30cc Echo wears a 20 most of the time, and I am thinking about looking for a longer one.

I spent a good chunk of my childhood walking barb wire fence.... brings back memories.

Be careful what you take for posts... softwood (excepting cedar) doesn't last long in the ground. Cedar does okay, locust and hedge do better.

If I was running electric barb wire today, I would only use pressure treated 4x4 or live trees for corner posts, and I'd make sure that long runs had a similar 'good' post every so often. Finding livestock and getting them back in a pasture can be a lot more work than fixing the fence they got out of, and most wood posts rot off where they meet the ground within a few years. Live trees can last a really long time as a fencepost, but you don't get to pick their location, you have to keep them trimmed off the wire, and they eventually grow around the insulator. (And then someday somebody finds the old insulator and bolt with a chainsaw, which takes us right back to the grinder topic. ;) )

The posts only rot if soil builds up around them at the ground level. Wood beneath the soil doesn't get exposed to oxygen and mold and bacteria cannot destroy the wood. Filling with gravel around the post, especially at the top, will prevent soil from accumulating. piling the gravel around the post will also prevent soil from forming. Wood needs water and oxygen or water and sunlight to rot, just water won't do it. All of Venice is built upon wooden logs submerged in wet silt and clay.
 
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jetsam

Minister of Fire
Dec 12, 2015
5,283
Long Island, NY
youtu.be
The posts only rot if soil builds up around them at the ground level. Wood beneath the soil doesn't get exposed to oxygen and mold and bacteria cannot destroy the wood. Filling with gravel around the post, especially at the top, will prevent soil from accumulating. piling the gravel around the post will also prevent soil from forming. Wood needs water and oxygen or water and sunlight to rot, just water won't do it. All of Venice is built upon wooden logs submerged in wet silt and clay.

Well, that would have been useful information some decades ago. Probably will be again someday when I get back out to the country.

This is what I love about the internet- I told you something that I just know is true because it's always been that way in my head, and you come up with something else that turns that idea on its head. (I'll still need to test it to get my brain to internalize it as truth, but it sounds right!)

I wonder if bamboo could last as a light duty pole with gravel at the top.... I already know that it rots in a year or two in "dirt"... calling it dirt loosely because the ground here is pretty much sand over top of sandy gravel. Everywhere else I've ever lived, you would go down to the river to get gravel... here, you can just dig a six inch hole anywhere you please!
 

salecker

Minister of Fire
Aug 22, 2010
1,482
Northern Canada
Here if you dig a hole for a post and fill it with gravel...
you end up with your posts sitting in water all the time.
Nothing but clay for 300 ft below me. A hole in clay fills with water,which come winter presents a new problem of the post getting forced out of the ground when the water freezes.A little every year till the post falls over.
I got a job to pull remove old telephone polls.Some were in the ground less than a foot made the job very easy
 

jetsam

Minister of Fire
Dec 12, 2015
5,283
Long Island, NY
youtu.be
Here if you dig a hole for a post and fill it with gravel...
you end up with your posts sitting in water all the time.
Nothing but clay for 300 ft below me. A hole in clay fills with water,which come winter presents a new problem of the post getting forced out of the ground when the water freezes.A little every year till the post falls over.
I got a job to pull remove old telephone polls.Some were in the ground less than a foot made the job very easy

I used to live in Georgia, and it was the same down there. Red clay anywhere you stick a shovel. Don't think it was 300 feet deep as I used to hit rocks pretty regularly driving anchors and ground rods in 10' deep.

Never had any land or maintained any fence down there, though.
 

EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
1,255
SE North Carolina
They're probably very popular with the throw-it-away-and-get-a-new-one crowd.

OEMs ought to love them because they cut much better than traditional safety chains, but still qualify as a safety chain (so they are allowed to hang one on a new saw for retail sale).

I would take them happily if someone wanted to give them to me for free, but I wouldn't pay money for one. I can turn one into a normal chain in a few minutes now.... BUT if I'm buying a new loop, why pick one that I have to grind parts off of before I use it??

Honestly, my chainsaw sickness may spiral out of control until I am buying spools instead of loops soon anyway. ;lol
Bought a spool 410 driver spool to make a second loop for my 52” 156 drive link milling bar. Now I need a grinder. Two 11’ slab cuts and the chain needs sharpening. New spool is skip but that’s still a lot to by hand.
 

jetsam

Minister of Fire
Dec 12, 2015
5,283
Long Island, NY
youtu.be
Bought a spool 410 driver spool to make a second loop for my 52” 156 drive link milling bar. Now I need a grinder. Two 11’ slab cuts and the chain needs sharpening. New spool is skip but that’s still a lot to by hand.

You really want a grinder for milling unless you buy pre-ground ripping chain, and this really limits your choices of chains.

Crosscut chain comes with a 25°-30° top plate angle ground in. Ripping chain is usually 10°-15° (and I saw one guy who swears by 0° full comp). I wouldn't want to try changing that angle by 15° with a file even if it was skip tooth.

I honestly can't tell you that I find grinding any faster than hand filing. I thought it would be, but it's slower. I may speed up as I get more experience under my belt.

All my nasty old chains cut like light sabers now that I have the basics figured out, though!

If you get a grinder, don't start with a long new ripping loop. Start with an old stumping chain from your smallest saw. Bad things will happen to this chain. ;lol
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
6,146
Downeast Maine
I use my grinder to set my pre-ground ripping chain from 15 to 10 degrees. I've tried 5 degrees but this is noticeably slower than 10 and the board finish is no better. 15 is faster but the finish is much rougher, not worth it to me. I may try 0-5 degrees when I have a securely mounted bench grinder, but I need a shed with electricity first.