New Home Construction

[joewyo34]

Hey guys,
Brand new to all of this! Had a friend who recently purchased a home and he inherited a wood gasification boiler and is loving it! My wife and I are currently in plans to build our home. 3500 sq. ft. with 900 ft. attatched garage. We are in the early stages of planning and do have access to natural gas/electric. Electric and pellet is how we currently heat our small 1200 sq ft home. The HVAC people wanted to know how I planned on heating this house. Before I was introduced to this site, it was going to be forced air natural gas. Now I have some decisions to make!

I have been visiting this site for some time and have found several informative information. Even though outside systems are less effecient, I believe that this is the system that I can talk my wife into. Several questions I have about these. I am not sure if we have any local dealers/installers here in small town Wyoming. Looking for some systems to investigate, which is the best way to heat home - in floor heat, forced air heat, under the floor heat?

All suggestions and input is appreciated!

Joe

 

[woodsmaster]

If I was building new I'd super insulate and heat with a natural gas condensing boiler with heat in the floor. the money these
gassifiers cost would be better spent in IFC's or another well insulated method. Your heat bill would be very cheap and no work or mess that comes with the wood.

 

[DaBackBurner]

The first question that pops into my head would be, do you want/need air conditioning? That might have an impact on your decision. The 'best' way is hard to quantify. I can only go on my own experience. One of the homes I'm heating has forced air (parents...bless 'em). Haven't yet installed (probably never will) a condensing unit for them so no central air. They just always had forced air, and I couldn't persuade them otherwise. My house is hydronic/fin-tube/flat panel combo. The workshop is radiant floor. The homes are approx. the same cubic air volume and insulated approx. the same. I can heat my home (hydronic) with lower water temps. I can heat the workshop with lower water temps than my home. But one has to consider floor coverings and such, I have no floor covering in the shop. I think hybrid installs are the way to go. Consider your floor covering, window area, cathedral areas room use and apply the heat emitters accordingly.

 

[DaBackBurner]

If I was building new I'd super insulate and heat with a natural gas condensing boiler with heat in the floor. the money these
gassifiers cost would be better spent in IFC's or another well insulated method. Your heat bill would be very cheap and no work or mess that comes with the wood.

And yeah! By all means don't skimp on the insulation. It will pay you everyday.

 

[joewyo34]

Yes I will need to cool this home in the summer months.

 

[joewyo34]

When people say heat in the floor, does that mean heat in the floor joists? I have talked to a couple of locals around here that put the coils on top of their sub floor and then poured 1 1/2" of concrete on top of that and then layed their finished floor on top of the concrete.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Hey guys,
Brand new to all of this! Had a friend who recently purchased a home and he inherited a wood gasification boiler and is loving it! My wife and I are currently in plans to build our home. 3500 sq. ft. with 900 ft. attatched garage. We are in the early stages of planning and do have access to natural gas/electric. Electric and pellet is how we currently heat our small 1200 sq ft home. The HVAC people wanted to know how I planned on heating this house. Before I was introduced to this site, it was going to be forced air natural gas. Now I have some decisions to make!

I have been visiting this site for some time and have found several informative information. Even though outside systems are less effecient, I believe that this is the system that I can talk my wife into. Several questions I have about these. I am not sure if we have any local dealers/installers here in small town Wyoming. Looking for some systems to investigate, which is the best way to heat home - in floor heat, forced air heat, under the floor heat?

All suggestions and input is appreciated!

Joe

Welcome to Hearth, you are in the right place. I would buy a boiler that is as user friendly as possible & that would be a Lambda one or a Garn. If its going in an outside shed & it looks that way, the Garn will not need a chimney nor separate storage tanks. Personally I like cast iron radiators, few would put these in a new house though. The rest here can talk about in floor heat etc. There is no way I would put in coils/forced air with any heating system, Randy

 

[MarcM]

Hey guys,
Brand new to all of this! Had a friend who recently purchased a home and he inherited a wood gasification boiler and is loving it! My wife and I are currently in plans to build our home. 3500 sq. ft. with 900 ft. attatched garage. We are in the early stages of planning and do have access to natural gas/electric. Electric and pellet is how we currently heat our small 1200 sq ft home. The HVAC people wanted to know how I planned on heating this house. Before I was introduced to this site, it was going to be forced air natural gas. Now I have some decisions to make!

I have been visiting this site for some time and have found several informative information. Even though outside systems are less effecient, I believe that this is the system that I can talk my wife into. Several questions I have about these. I am not sure if we have any local dealers/installers here in small town Wyoming. Looking for some systems to investigate, which is the best way to heat home - in floor heat, forced air heat, under the floor heat?

All suggestions and input is appreciated!

Joe

Welcome to Hearth, you are in the right place. I would buy a boiler that is as user friendly as possible & that would be a Lambda one or a Garn. If its going in an outside shed & it looks that way, the Garn will not need a chimney nor separate storage tanks. Personally I like cast iron radiators, few would put these in a new house though. The rest here can talk about in floor heat etc. There is no way I would put in coils/forced air with any heating system, Randy

Having just installed my first flat panel wall radiator in an old farmhouse full of cast iron radiators... I'd go flat panel every time. Less water, less space... but the biggest reason? What a PITA when it comes time to try and clean behind, under and around a cast iron radiator, and the radiator itself. Ugh. They're dust and cobweb magnets/traps. Really happy with my recently purchased Runtal flat panel. I'd probably do those over fin/tube convectors also despite the higher cost.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Hey guys,
Brand new to all of this! Had a friend who recently purchased a home and he inherited a wood gasification boiler and is loving it! My wife and I are currently in plans to build our home. 3500 sq. ft. with 900 ft. attatched garage. We are in the early stages of planning and do have access to natural gas/electric. Electric and pellet is how we currently heat our small 1200 sq ft home. The HVAC people wanted to know how I planned on heating this house. Before I was introduced to this site, it was going to be forced air natural gas. Now I have some decisions to make!

I have been visiting this site for some time and have found several informative information. Even though outside systems are less effecient, I believe that this is the system that I can talk my wife into. Several questions I have about these. I am not sure if we have any local dealers/installers here in small town Wyoming. Looking for some systems to investigate, which is the best way to heat home - in floor heat, forced air heat, under the floor heat?

All suggestions and input is appreciated!

Joe

Welcome to Hearth, you are in the right place. I would buy a boiler that is as user friendly as possible & that would be a Lambda one or a Garn. If its going in an outside shed & it looks that way, the Garn will not need a chimney nor separate storage tanks. Personally I like cast iron radiators, few would put these in a new house though. The rest here can talk about in floor heat etc. There is no way I would put in coils/forced air with any heating system, Randy

Having just installed my first flat panel wall radiator in an old farmhouse full of cast iron radiators... I'd go flat panel every time. Less water, less space... but the biggest reason? What a PITA when it comes time to try and clean behind, under and around a cast iron radiator, and the radiator itself. Ugh. They're dust and cobweb magnets/traps. Really happy with my recently purchased Runtal flat panel. I'd probably do those over fin/tube convectors also despite the higher cost.

Are you running a woodworking shop in your living room? lol. I don't have the mess you speak of from radiators & mine have been in for about 25 years. I like radiant heat & wouldn't see anything wrong with panel rads, Randy

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Hey guys,
Brand new to all of this! Had a friend who recently purchased a home and he inherited a wood gasification boiler and is loving it! My wife and I are currently in plans to build our home. 3500 sq. ft. with 900 ft. attatched garage. We are in the early stages of planning and do have access to natural gas/electric. Electric and pellet is how we currently heat our small 1200 sq ft home. The HVAC people wanted to know how I planned on heating this house. Before I was introduced to this site, it was going to be forced air natural gas. Now I have some decisions to make!

I have been visiting this site for some time and have found several informative information. Even though outside systems are less effecient, I believe that this is the system that I can talk my wife into. Several questions I have about these. I am not sure if we have any local dealers/installers here in small town Wyoming. Looking for some systems to investigate, which is the best way to heat home - in floor heat, forced air heat, under the floor heat?

All suggestions and input is appreciated!

Joe

Joe, you are still in the planning phase.
Check out Passiv Haus or zero energy buildings. (broken link removed)
A good designed house these days will only need 5,000 to 6,000 BTU/h and takes advantage of passive solar input.
Good forum is http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums.aspx

Spent your money on the design, insulation and windows/doors.
After you took care of that, see what you realy need for heating appliance.
Most likely not a 100,000 BTU/hr wood or pellet boiler
From day one your energy requirement will be small and this for the rest of the lifetime of the house, doesn't matter how expensive the cost of energy will become.

Finding a knowledgeble builder will be your most difficult chanlange, but after that it wll be smooth sailing.

 

[DaBackBurner]

Joe, you are still in the planning phase.
Check out Passiv Haus or zero energy buildings. (broken link removed)
A good designed house these days will only need 5,000 to 6,000 BTU/h and takes advantage of passive solar input.
Good forum is http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums.aspx

Spent your money on the design, insulation and windows/doors.
After you took care of that, see what you realy need for heating appliance.
Most likely not a 100,000 BTU/hr wood or pellet boiler
From day one your energy requirement will be small and this for the rest of the lifetime of the house, doesn't matter how expensive the cost of energy will become.

Finding a knowledgeble builder will be your most difficult chanlange, but after that it wll be smooth sailing.

+1
Another great site http://www.buildingscience.com

 

[rkusek]

Congratulations on the plans to build your new home! I would recommended a couple things I learned my experience. Determine the exact things you want and make sure they are in your bid (ie. Moen Model xx faucets, etc.). If you just specify something standard and expect to upgrade during the building phase, they will charge 3-4 times the actual cost of upgrading. If it's in your original bid, they won't be able to do that for fear of losing the job. Also make sure they will use "bang" doors where any damage could occur or replace them if don't and one gets dinged. My builder didn't use one on the garage where all the traffic occured and gave me a hard time when I complained about a dent that couln't be fixed but he ended up putting on a new door. I would put at least some fiberglass in your attic insulation rather than just the blow in type. They usually try to push the blown in type for cost but most folks know that this settles drastically over a few years. The newer types might not settle as bad. I have seen a new fiberglass (pink) type that is a blow in type that might something to look into. I used R-19 fiberglass with the blown in cellulose (R-30 equivalent) on top. That was 3 yrs ago and I will probably have to add more a few years from now due to settling.

As far as heating and cooling goes, being in central Wyoming I'm guessing your situation might be a lot like my area where gas forced air is the norm. Having access to natural gas makes it hard not to go that route. How is your wood supply? Are you buying or cutting your own? How expensive is your electricity? Will you have your own well or city/rural water? I went with the simple air source heat pump with forced air ductwork because the house is on an acreage. Natural gas here is typically only available in city limits unless you live on the distribution lines. Since you need to air condition, I don't see how you could avoid forced air ductwork. You can get into the prices for the mini split systems and see if you want to go that route instead. That would make some of the floor heat, panel rads, thin concrete floor options more realistic. Here's how I see your options:

1. Gas forced air furnace with AC unit. Water to Air HX in the plenum if you were to supplement with wood fired gasser or OWB.

2. Electric air source heat pump with electric backup. If rates are cheap, this makes good sense if cooling is required. You can still add a Water to Air HX in the plenum if you were to supplement with wood gasser or OWB. I would avoid the heat pumps with gas backup but since you have nat gas this might be more appealing. These systems switch over exclusively to gas at around 25-30 degrees where the electric backup versions can work together at the same time to maintain temp in the home using the least amount the backup source. My heat pump still runs down to about 0 F. If your backup is natural gas instead of propane then this may be more cost effective. I'm not sure how efficient this compares to a high efficiency gas furnace. My last home had one and we got tired of the hot/cold/hot/cold temps in the house plus it really dried out the air. The warm (not hot air) air from the heat pump or the W/A HX seems a lot more comfortable to us even though it runs more frequently.

3. Electric Ground Source heat pump either closed loop or pump and dump. If you will have a well and they allow pump and dump there, this might be the best option given cheap electricity. You can even get HP's of this type that heat water instead of air (ie. for panel rads) although due to cooling needs it would be hard not to go the forced air route. All of these have the provision to heat your DHW. During the cooling months, you can get nearly free DHW heating.

4. Mini-splits for the cooling needs and a natural gas boiler, wood gasser, or Garn for the heating needs using the radiant floor or panel rads that others have suggested. The mini splits can be AC only, have backup resistance strip emergency heating, or be a mini split heat pump that could do both. The latter two could be your vacation backup if you went with a wood gasser, OWB, or Garn. I have no idea how pricey these minis are but I doubt they would be more than a complete system like option 1 with all the ductwork. The mini types can also have an outdoor unit that can control multiple rooms using a multistage compressor setup which should make the overall cost much cheaper.

If I won the lottery, I would build a company that would make a way for household appliances like fridges, freezers, and hot water heaters to all work together with the HVAC system in the home. The mini split stuff is neat because it can be added to older homes without drastic work plus it gives more "zoned" control.

 

[rkusek]

I was assuming conventional "stick built" construction. ICF contruction would be something to look at as well and require much less heating and cooling as others have mentioned. Even conventional construction can benefit from passive solar advantages and of course quality windows and insulation.

 

[WoodEnergy]

Hello JoeWyo,

I was in a similar situation some years back, and have learned a few things since then. Hopefully I can share some of my experience (mistakes?). Wyoming is probably similar to Colorado's Front Range and you have lots of sun with a high diurnal deltaT, and the only firewood available is pine.

Natural gas is so cheap right now that it would be the obvious choice. I just read about $3.68/Mcf in Ohio (retail, residential metered). Maybe that's a fluke, but hopefully those low prices are headed our way, too. At that price a cord of pine would equate about $49.00 with no mess or work whatsoever. It will eventually go way up, and when it does be ready to install a gasser. For now, plan on a medium-efficiency natural gas boiler (relatively cheap) that will eventually become your back-up boiler. Why spend $8k on an ultra-high efficiency gas boiler that will save you $15/mo right now? Apply the savings to a future wood gasser. Aim for a boiler with primary/secondary adjustability as well as total airflow adjustability, which is EXTREMELY important with our super-dry pine fuel and high altitude.

Insulation is Job1, as was mentioned above, but install a Class A chimney into the boiler room and provide easy access and plenty of room for fuel and water storage. An exterior entry door into the boiler room (think wheelbarrow wide) with covered storage outside is ideal. If you can find a sturdy 1000+/- gal. storage tank, it is a lot easier to install and insulate during construction than afterwards. All of this is, of course, if you want the boiler INSIDE the house. Some don't, it's a personal preference.

If I could re-do my own home, I would put in-slab radiant on the basement level and garage slab, and a fan coil (with A/C) in the attic for the main level. This eliminates the cold floor in the basement but provides air changes and quicker response time on the main level. Colorado (like Wyoming, I assume) gets a LOT of solar heat gain during the day so it is nice to have that forced air on the main level, as opposed to radiant which tends to get too hot and stuffy during those sunny, warm winter days.

Just my $0.02, hope that helps.

Steve

edit: just re-read your original post where you said you wanted an outdoor or remote boiler. sorry, I missed that earlier.

 

[bpirger]

How do you like walking around on your friends floors with the radiant in the concrete overpour you mentioned? I built my place with radiant...and we positively love it. Having lived with forced air (the worst), baseboard (I just don't like to see them everywhere), and then radiant.....I'm not sure I'd ever be able to move to a non radiant place. try and spend a little time over there soon and see if it is a "must have" to you. SO constant, uniform, and damned lovely.

Of course this means cooling has to be done otherwise (all sorts of talk about cooling through radiant floors...but there are potential issues....though Hunderligger here does this I believe). Cooling can be done with the little mini systems is spot locations...if that works for you. Another full blown forced air cooling system can obviously get pricey.

Will you have a basement? Second floor? If you look into radiant, there are many ways to do it. In slab is great, or gypcrete over subfloor. Warm board is nice...but expensive. There are other "above subfloor" solutions these days. Last pick would be staple up with extruded plates under the subfloor, in that they require higher temp water....but work.

You need to figure out how you want to heat...then figure out how to convert fuel into heat. Gas is likely to be cheap...you folks have the big gas fields out your way, I'd think the prices would be fairly low for some time to come. Do you LIKE to deal with wood? Or would you rather not? That's the biggest decision you have to make regarding wood. It's a lot of work, a lot of time, and if you don't do it, it doesn't get done! It's a bit of a lifestyle choice...don't make it lightly.

Log home by chance? That's my dream....a full scribe in 50 wooded acres looking down on the Snake.....I should have gone into finance instead of physics! LMAO

 

[joewyo34]

Wow, thanks guys. Tons of great info so far, and I just started this topic this morning!! Let's see, I do live close to natural gas supply line (I dig the 3/4 mile trench and they install for relatively cheap). My land is located on some grass hay field. I own 10 acres, with own private well/septic. Forced air natural gas does seem to be the norm in our area (town or near supply). When I met with our general contractor last month I figured on going with forced air natural gas and central air unit for cooling. I also mentioned to him that I would like to use ICF for my foundation - 4 ft. crawl space. He didn't speak to highly of these. The way he explained it to me was that it is an unused area and you do not heat or cool it anyway so no need for the insulated blocks. Not sure if he didn't like them or had a bad experience with them.

Regardless if I go with a OWB or gasser of somekind, I am going to dig the trench and put the gas line on my property. I will use this for at least the stove. Some people have mentioned using natural gas boiler? If I did this would it be easy to transfer to a wood gasser system if gas prices went out of sight?

The duct work will be needed for the AC unit. Just a ton of decisions to be made. I have some time as we are waiting for the frost to leave the ground before the foundation can get dug.

Thanks again for your time

 

[dogwood]

Joe, I did build my own 3000 foot home. If I had to build over I would definitely build with SIPS (Structural Insulated Panels), If you're unfamilar with them picture a vanilla ice cream sandwich. SIPs are like two pieces of plywood with foam insulation between. Great insulation value. If you go conventional stick-built, then spray foam to eliminate as much air infiltration as possible, even though it costs more. Find one of Tom from Maines' posts. He has so much insulation on his house he could probably heat it with a candle.

If I could have afforded a Garn I would have one instead of the boiler I have. They takes bigger sized wood and have simplicity of design, everything including storage in one package. Not pressurized though. And who wouldn't want a Garn barn. I would also opt for hydronic panels for the ease of adjusting room temps, quality of heat and ability to use lower temp water from storage. They are all over Europe. Radiant floor heat would be the second choice, but not a close second. I would not consider a water to air heat exchanger in a plenum, which is what I have. You need higher water temps than the panel rads, meaning less time between burns.

I'm figuring with the price of all fuels already out of sight, and the world population increasing at an exponential rate, demand and prices will inevitably become even more ridiculous. so every penny spent on energy conservation and self sufficiency on your part should reap handsome benefits.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Mike

 

[711mhw]

One repeating suggestion is insulating. I'm not sure about your GC or general building tendencies in your area, but a lot of guys (builders) think that they are doing a heck of a job giving you a 6" R-19 wall, tyvek and some blow in in the attic! I used to be one of them! Insulating to "code" is a joke. If you plan on spending the forseeable future in this house, stick to your guns. Demand the ICF foundaton, look into SIP's for wall/roof const. and at minimum, housewrap/spray foam to seal, then FG batt insulation. (sometimes called flash&batt. SIP's are still "unconventional" to most bldrs. and therefore expensive, but the biggest advantage of them (I think) is, 1 the "air tightness" that they have. 2 The thermal break that they are. 3 R value. All 3 of these arguments for SIP construction can be reasonably achieved with conventional framing (economical) and a few extra steps during const. Get your GC on board that you are an insulation nut case and make sure that he conveys that to every sub involved as well. It will pay you back! And you should read up on passive bldg. methods and be on the jobsite everyday looking for something to caulk.
Then you can heat it by warming up some toast! Have fun!
edit; don't skimp on the windows and doors. They are just as much a part of it as the other concerns.

 

[joewyo34]

SIPS! Yes, I have done some research into these. There is a guy in Idaho that is giving me a price on my walls. It definitly is a great idea, I haven't gotten a price yet. I am unsure if my builder has any experience with SIPs or not. If they are right for me, I can definitly find another builder! Ha! Additionally, I have looked into flash and batt style if we do the tradional 2X6 framing. One of our local insulators owes us some money. We will do some trading in that case.

 

[mr.fixit]

This is a nice heating fuel cost calculator that I ran across on the solar forum. http://www.travisindustries.com/CostOfHeating_WkSht.asp

The one thing I would recommend on new construction is insulation,insulation and more insulation.It's the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[dogwood]

If you are considering flash and batt, check out the following link's questions on flash and batt, (broken link removed). There are some facts about flash and batt you may or may not be aware of. (The answers to the article's FAQs are below, not linked to, the questions.)

Mike

 

[RobC]

If you thinking of conventional framing spray foam is great. I had to reroof and we pulled out the Pink and sprayed with foam and it is incredible. Super insulating value and the house is super quiet in high winds. I would love to be in a 100% foam house. SIPS would be great. When getting prices, some things might be more expensive but there are other savings besides just energy payback like speed and ease of construction.
Keep us posted. This is a great site ! There is good info on the other Hearth Forums too.
Welcome Rob....

 

[DaBackBurner]

Might want to give this a read as well. "Builder's Guide to Cold Climates" by Joseph Lstiburek. Joe is to the building envelope industry like John "Siggy" Siegenthaler is to hydronic heating. I've built two homes and a workshop (I did sub out the concrete work though). Each one has progressed in insulation and air infiltration quality as I've learned better building practices and the advent of better building products. I built my workshop which was my final build, I hope, using the REMOTE wall specs. (http://www.cchrc.org/remote-walls). This has proven to be my favorite build so far, and it is not climate specific. Dry-hot, hot-humid, friggin'-cold it doesn't matter. Anyway, it is another excellent informative site to look over as well, especially if SIPS turn up to be too expensive. I do like the fact that if your house is not a two-story then you don't have to use 2x6 construction using this method, just to gain the cavity depth needed for increased insulation. 2x4 works just fine. All the wiring/plumbing/ducting or whatever, is easily installed within wall cavities because all the insulation is on the outside of the wall, which may be a minor benefit over SIPS. Joe explains the "Perfect Envelope" in his book, kind of enlightening, at least it was to me.

Best of luck on your planning.

 

[711mhw]

If you are considering flash and batt, check out the following link's questions on flash and batt, (broken link removed). There are some facts about flash and batt you may or may not be aware of. (The answers to the article's FAQs are below, not linked to, the questions.)

Mike

DW, went to your link but it would not let me click the F&B details, but did read that at 2" it becomes a moisture barries. Is this one of the facts that you are hinting at? This is important stuff, I have wondered about this and never seen a F&B job, but it sounded like a reasonable & economic alternate to a full spray. I'll check out that link again, thanks.

 

[DaveBP]

Good introductory article in Fine Homebuilding magazine in the last year or so about combining fiberglass and spray foam to get good performance with a little less cash.