New owner and Buck stove woes

[Stealthdude]

I hope these help

I didn’t get the chimney pics I got a honey do list all day

I did find a new “issue” I see the insulating faker around the firebox to flue pipe connection seems to be now crumbling apart? I don’t know much about that portion ( seems install related) but it doesnt seem safe to light it up

Insulation blanket is on order. From the way I read the manual should that go below the baffle plate correct? It wasn’t clear to me

I may be getting irrational but it seems like for $3.5k later I could have a large new install and be enjoying myself not cursing something smaller than what is needed with missing parts and maybe faulty install?

 

[Stealthdude]

Until I hear back no fires until I better understand this gasket to flue issue

 

[Stealthdude]

 

[begreen]

I can see how this would be confusing, the manual illustration is poorly done. The insulation blanket goes on top of the baffle. Pull the top trim plate to inspect what is going on with the flue collar gasket and liner attachment.

 

[Stealthdude]

Thanks be green. Given that it is hanging like that what’s the normal process to repair that gasket? Just rip it out, prep and repair with the new rope gasket?

 

[begreen]

I am assuming this is for the chimney connector. If so it might just be sloppily installed. But without seeing what the installer did to connect the liner that is just a guess. If this is for the chimney connector and the gasket is still in good condition then detaching the chimney collar, tacking the gasket back in place with some silicone and putting it in properly might suffice. If it is torn or an improper gasket for the application then it should be replaced.

Sorry to say but the insert will need to be pulled to do this.

 

[Woody Stover]

I did find a new “issue” I see the insulating faker around the firebox to flue pipe connection seems to be now crumbling apart? I don’t know much about that portion ( seems install related) but it doesnt seem safe to light it up

It looks like you can see through the surround and in the 3rd pic, it looks like you have a flashlight inside the fire box, and you can see light coming out of the flue exit on top of the stove. Have you had the surround off the stove to see how the liner is attached? Maybe the stove was installed by hacks who didn't have the right-sized appliance connector or connector pipe, and they tried to seal a big gap with a gasket. More likely, it's like the Buck 91 I had, no flue collar included. So they just put the pipe into the flue exit opening and tried to seal it with the gasket. I bought the cast iron flue collar and then had a 15* elbow, made by the liner maker, which connected properly to the liner (all components should be made by the same company so they fit together right.)
That is why you have no draft and can hardly light the stove; There is a 1/4" gap all the way around where the pipe goes into the top of the stove, now that the hack-job gasket has fallen out!
Third row, "chimney connector." https://buckstove.com/store?olsPage=t/model-18
Here's the 8" cast collar I put on the 91 at my MIL's house.

Insulation blanket is on order. From the way I read the manual should that go below the baffle plate correct?

I can see how this would be confusing, the manual illustration is poorly done. The insulation blanket goes on top of the baffle. Pull the top trim plate to inspect what is going on with the flue collar gasket and liner attachment.

I don't know; To me, it looks like this view is from below the tubes, and that the tubes are on the bottom, then the insulation, then the baffle plate on top. Yes, should have been drawn more clearly.
I would also replace the baffle plate, or at least take it out and pound it flat again; It looks as though it is warped from running without the insulation, and the baffle plate was exposed to direct high heat from the flaming tubes. Call Buckstove to confirm. I've called them in the past...they are happy to help and will get you set up.

 

[begreen]

I'm trying to give the installer the benefit of the doubt. Pulling the top trim to take a peak in there should reveal the method used to connect the liner.

I didn't see that picture in the manual for the insulation blanket. You are correct, it shows the blanket under the stainless baffle. I stand corrected on the insulation. This is the first time I've see it done this way.

 

[Woody Stover]

I'm trying to give the installer the benefit of the doubt.

Of course. After all, they are the best help minimum wage can buy.

 

[Stealthdude]

It looks like you can see through the surround and in the 3rd pic, it looks like you have a flashlight inside the fire box, and you can see light coming out of the flue exit on top of the stove. Have you had the surround off the stove to see how the liner is attached? Maybe the stove was installed by hacks who didn't have the right-sized appliance connector or connector pipe, and they tried to seal a big gap with a gasket. More likely, it's like the Buck 91 I had, no flue collar included. So they just put the pipe into the flue exit opening and tried to seal it with the gasket. I bought the cast iron flue collar and then had a 15* elbow, made by the liner maker, which connected properly to the liner (all components should be made by the same company so they fit together right.)
That is why you have no draft and can hardly light the stove; There is a 1/4" gap all the way around where the pipe goes into the top of the stove, now that the hack-job gasket has fallen out!
Third row, "chimney connector." https://buckstove.com/store?olsPage=t/model-18
Here's the 8" cast collar I put on the 91 at my MIL's house.
View attachment 236746


I don't know; To me, it looks like this view is from below the tubes, and that the tubes are on the bottom, then the insulation, then the baffle plate on top. Yes, should have been drawn more clearly.
I would also replace the baffle plate, or at least take it out and pound it flat again; It looks as though it is warped from running without the insulation, and the baffle plate was exposed to direct high heat from the flaming tubes. Call Buckstove to confirm. I've called them in the past...they are happy to help and will get you set up.
View attachment 236745

The third pic is me shining a light through the mesh above the stove to show the connection to the flue. I may fart with it when we get home to see if I can see more.
Fourth pic is from front of baffle plate by air wash shooting back to the flue.

I will check it out and maybe talk to a local installer to get some help in getting it fixed right. If this leak is congruent with my issues then things are adding up

 

[jatoxico]

Waiting for the OP to get that surround off. Take picture of firebox, check for insulation above the unit, see if liner is insulated and this new concern of the connection of liner to stove.

@Woody Stover any opinion on running a liner in what apprears to be a prefab chimney?

 

[Woody Stover]

What is the chimney? What type and how high?

Chimney is triple walled stainless liner.
I don’t know the exact height but it sticks above roof line by about 6’.
I’m guessing 30-35’ total

You really need to find out how the stove is installed. If it is just running through an old zero clearance fireplaces chimney it could be very dangerous. Even having the insert in a fireplace not meant for an insert could be an issue.

Waiting for the OP to get that surround off. Take picture of firebox, check for insulation above the unit, see if liner is insulated and this new concern of the connection of liner to stove.
Woody, any opinion on running a liner in what apprears to be a prefab chimney?

I'm not a chimney expert, but yes, all these previous questions need to be answered. With Stealthdude's limited experience and knowledge, pics are the only way to possibly see what is going on. Who knows, it may have been installed by a homeowner who knew nothing, and could be dangerous as bholler said. Or for all I know, it might be legit, with proper triple-wall chimney (not "liner") installed in a chase..I don't even know if such a setup could be legit..??
All I'd be willing to bet on is that the "pipe," whatever it is, is hooked up with no cast flue collar, and that the baffle installation isn't right, and those are a couple reasons draft is weak. I hope he talks directly to Buckstove about some of this; Talking to a local stove dealer or installer can be a crapshoot, as far as expertise goes, particularly if they were responsible for the hack work done so far. Coulda been a nitwit homeowner or his handyman buddy, though..

 

[Stealthdude]

I'm not a chimney expert, but yes, all these previous questions need to be answered. With Stealthdude's limited experience and knowledge, pics are the only way to possibly see what is going on. Who knows, it may have been installed by a homeowner who knew nothing, and could be dangerous as bholler said. Or for all I know, it might be legit, with proper triple-wall chimney (not "liner") installed in a chase..I don't even know if such a setup could be legit..??
All I'd be willing to bet on is that the "pipe," whatever it is, is hooked up with no cast flue collar, and that the baffle installation isn't right, and those are a couple reasons draft is weak. I hope he talks directly to Buckstove about some of this; Talking to a local stove dealer or installer can be a crapshoot, as far as expertise goes, particularly if they were responsible for the hack work done so far. Coulda been a nitwit homeowner or his handyman buddy, though..

I have played realtor phone tag and got the prior owners phone number. He installed himself. And he decided to remove the insulation blanket because he thought it blocked flow. He also had problems lighting it to start

I decided to call around and there is a not so local shop but with good reviews that has a mobile install tech. He is coming to check out the situation

They were appalled when I said buck 18 and chaise together. Basically not to light it until they see it and that it is a hazard as is.
They will be taking measurements also while here

The situation may just resolve itself with a merry post Christmas to me

 

[Stealthdude]

Moisture meter arrived. 13-15% on the stuff I have been trying to burn . At least I can do that right

Service tech from Lehman’s comes out tomorrow. We think we can make a hearthstone heritage or homestead fit and hopefully achieve the desired effect

 

[kennyp2339]

Moisture meter arrived. 13-15% on the stuff I have been trying to burn . At least I can do that right

Service tech from Lehman’s comes out tomorrow. We think we can make a hearthstone heritage or homestead fit and hopefully achieve the desired effect

ohhh nice choices, I checked out the Lehman's website, I'm jealous of the whole store.

 

[Woody Stover]

We think we can make a hearthstone heritage or homestead fit

Daggone it, I was looking forward to tales of the Buck being set up right and running, just to see what it would do.

 

[Stealthdude]

Daggone it, I was looking forward to tales of the Buck being set up right and running, just to see what it would do.

Well we aren’t above that yet either; but the small
Firebox size will just piss me off eventually so why not try and fill out the area while I am struggling to get the the system up and running

I have a preliminary guess that the chimney is working well, in that the triple wall pipes are somehow cooling down the discharge gas ( maybe intentionally for the original design) and it never establishes good/great draft because it doesn’t make it to the top. Thus the immense amount of creosote and failure to ever really take off and burn

Only four more hours until the troubleshooting begins


Kennyp, thank you. I love the look of those stoves and you double your capacity which gets closer to right sizing for our needs. Plus I can extend into my hearth and have that freestanding feel which I love.

Convection fans and cast iron pans.... I love days where we lose power

I am a little nervous about the slow response in the soapstone, but alot of folks gave it good reviews if you treat them right. I called and talk to a hearthstone tech who was very helpful and knowledgeable. I haven’t signed the check yet but the looks and the good reviews are swaying me. Poor reviews sound like install or user related so I scrubbed those from my data set

Anyone have first hand experience with either hearthstone? I am not committed to it yet as there is one more stove shop I want to shop. But the folks at Lehman’s make it easy to do business with them; good people, fair prices, and they stand behind their stuff. Been in business for a long time and they get my lifestyle so why not support your neighbors.

Thanks again all for sticking with me. Hoping to learn why I have my woes here soon

 

[velvetfoot]

I would say if you can't load a 16" piece front-to-back, don't buy it.
It's hard to tell what the firebox dimensions are on most mfr's websites.
But that's just me.

 

[Stealthdude]

Woody you get your wish now

Solution: the collar where it connects to the 6” liner was not sitting flush or into the firebox. It had a gap and then was drawing air from the room and thus cooling the spent gas and then a huge amount of creosote and it would not pull draft at all. The reason is the prior owner or installer shoved the stove too far back and it wouldn’t seat correctly. We had to manipulate the fire box and it seats down in now

They tried to band aid it with the gasket, and thus when the gasket fell apart it allowed room air to funnel in.


The hearthstone needs too much R value to safely sit on my hearth as is with the short leg kit. The high leg kit puts it just high so I can’t connect it to the flue liner

We need less than 21.5” is what I wrote down ; otherwise I have to rip out a layer of brick and redo the hearth area ( not above doing this but probably not this winter).

So I am going to clean the glass tonight, burn some clean wood and see what happens. Maybe I will be doing cartwheels later

Will report back.

If anyone knows of a low rear height discharge stove I am all ears to start investigating.

The Jøtul 400/500 looks awesome but I am fearful I don’t have enough depth to support it as is.

 

[Woody Stover]

I figured that a poor chimney connection was one of the main issues when I saw the gasket hanging down, and remembered the flue exit on the Buck 91. I suppose there are other ways to connect the liner to the hole in the top of the stove, but that cast iron flue collar is probably the slickest, safest way to go, even though it will cost a little bit. If you look closely at the pic I posted above you will see that there are two L-bolts that clamp the cast collar securely to the flue exit hole on the stove. These bolts are tightened by reaching up through the firebox.
Yes, snce you already have it, I would see if I could get the Buck working safely, try it first, and see how it does...and you already have the baffle and insulation blanket on the way, correct? But since it was an owner install, he may have undersized the stove, that remains to be seen. What is your sq.ft. to be heated, room layout, etc? Do you want to heat the entire house, or just the area close to the stove?
But first things first. @bholler and @begreen had questions about the safety of the install, and you said "they were aghast" when you mentioned the Buck 18 installed in a chase. So did you have both the mobile install tech AND a guy from Lehman's look at it? What did they say concerning the safety of the install? Did you get any pics?
After you get the present setup working, and see how it does, THEN you can step back and weigh your options on how to proceed. There are a LOT of different stoves to choose from, some may require building better R-value insulating the hearth. Which stove will depend on your wood-heating goals.
I know it's a lot of research, and you want to burn now, but I suggest taking your time at this stage to make sure your final choice keeps you happy for a long time to come.
As to rear-vent stoves, quite a few are cast iron, the Jotuls you mentioned and other brands as well, Hearthstone is one. Jotul also has two or three plate-steel stoves that can rear-vent. They are secondary stoves, like your Buck. Woodstock stoves can all rear-vent, some at very low height. They have cat stoves, and cat-secondary hybrids.

 

[bholler]

I figured that a poor chimney connection was one of the main issues when I saw the gasket hanging down, and remembered the flue exit on the Buck 91. I suppose there are other ways to connect the liner to the hole in the top of the stove, but that cast iron flue collar is probably the slickest, safest way to go, even though it will cost a little bit. If you look closely at the pic I posted above you will see that there are two L-bolts that clamp the cast collar securely to the flue exit hole on the stove. These bolts are tightened by reaching up through the firebox.
Yes, snce you already have it, I would see if I could get the Buck working safely, try it first, and see how it does...and you already have the baffle and insulation blanket on the way, correct? But since it was an owner install, he may have undersized the stove, that remains to be seen. What is your sq.ft. to be heated, room layout, etc? Do you want to heat the entire house, or just the area close to the stove?
But first things first. @bholler and @begreen had questions about the safety of the install, and you said "they were agahst" when you mentioned the Buck 18 installed in a chase. So did you have both the mobile install tech AND a guy from Lehman's look at it? What did they say concerning the safety of the install? Did you get any pics?
After you get the present setup working, and see how it does, THEN you can step back and weigh your options on how to proceed. There are a LOT of different stoves to choose from, some may require building better R-value insulating the hearth. Which stove will depend on your wood-heating goals.
I know it's a lot of research, and you want to burn now, but I suggest taking your time at this stage to make sure your final choice keeps you happy for a long time to come.
As to rear-vent stoves, quite a few are cast iron, the Jotuls you mentioned and other brands as well, Hearthstone is one. Jotul also has two or three plate-steel stoves that can rear-vent. They are secondary stoves, like your Buck. Woodstock stoves can all rear-vent, some at very low height. They have cat stoves, and cat-secondary hybrids.

What jotuls are plate steel? I didn't know they had any.

 

[bholler]

Woody you get your wish now

Solution: the collar where it connects to the 6” liner was not sitting flush or into the firebox. It had a gap and then was drawing air from the room and thus cooling the spent gas and then a huge amount of creosote and it would not pull draft at all. The reason is the prior owner or installer shoved the stove too far back and it wouldn’t seat correctly. We had to manipulate the fire box and it seats down in now

They tried to band aid it with the gasket, and thus when the gasket fell apart it allowed room air to funnel in.


The hearthstone needs too much R value to safely sit on my hearth as is with the short leg kit. The high leg kit puts it just high so I can’t connect it to the flue liner

We need less than 21.5” is what I wrote down ; otherwise I have to rip out a layer of brick and redo the hearth area ( not above doing this but probably not this winter).

So I am going to clean the glass tonight, burn some clean wood and see what happens. Maybe I will be doing cartwheels later

Will report back.

If anyone knows of a low rear height discharge stove I am all ears to start investigating.

The Jøtul 400/500 looks awesome but I am fearful I don’t have enough depth to support it as is.

Still waiting to hear if you have a full height liner inside the air cooled chimney. If so is it insulated?

 

[Stealthdude]

Bholler
Yes full length liner, not insulated but the install tech ( he is the guy from Lehman’s recommended) examines it very closely and it has an adaptor plate on the chimney top portion. It was in the U.L. book. I was trying to follow him and learn at the same time or I would have taken pics. It is a round cap with perforated holes ( my understanding is it blocks off the air flow to the 6” one to keep it hot but the 8” is cooled), does that sound correct?


Baffle got pounded flatter. The insulation blanket we put in today also

There was just one install tech. He was happy with the install and safety of it. A different fireplace store I talked to over the phone and they gave me the aghast comment about the install.

The tech signed off on it was correct and safe as it is now that we fixed the connection ; it was just cockeyed and wouldn’t seal as it was not aligned with the liner


Goals wise if it heated the whole house that’s would be great but unrealistic I suspect. Really if it takes the propane bill down by a lot that makes me happy.

The living room is where it is installed. High vaulted ceilings and a staircase to three bedrooms upstairs. My bedroom is off the living room

I Will see how we do with some good dry wood tonight and then see what’s next

 

[bholler]

Bholler
Yes full length liner, not insulated but the install tech ( he is the guy from Lehman’s recommended) examines it very closely and it has an adaptor plate on the chimney top portion. It was in the U.L. book. I was trying to follow him and learn at the same time or I would have taken pics. It is a round cap with perforated holes ( my understanding is it blocks off the air flow to the 6” one to keep it hot but the 8” is cooled), does that sound correct?


Baffle got pounded flatter. The insulation blanket we put in today also

There was just one install tech. He was happy with the install and safety of it. A different fireplace store I talked to over the phone and they gave me the aghast comment about the install.

The tech signed off on it was correct and safe as it is now that we fixed the connection ; it was just cockeyed and wouldn’t seal as it was not aligned with the liner


Goals wise if it heated the whole house that’s would be great but unrealistic I suspect. Really if it takes the propane bill down by a lot that makes me happy.

The living room is where it is installed. High vaulted ceilings and a staircase to three bedrooms upstairs. My bedroom is off the living room

I Will see how we do with some good dry wood tonight and then see what’s next

What fireplace is it installed in? Did the tech check the model number? And for the record there is no ul book that has products in.

 

[Woody Stover]

What jotuls are plate steel? I didn't know they had any.

I should have specified that they are steel fire box with cast iron jackets; F45, F50, F55. It's been hard for me to find a backup stove, secondary burn, that has a steel box and rear-vents. The Jotul model that vents low enough for my lintel height is too much stove for my space. Not strictly secondary, but the same thing with the Woodstock steels; The IS would fit under my lintel but the AS is a better fit as far as output.

Still waiting to hear if you have a full height liner inside the air cooled chimney. If so is it insulated?

So is that the only way it would be legit with air-cooled chimney in a chase, if you ran an insulated liner inside of that? What else would work in a chase..standard Class A double-wall chimney, as would be used above a ceiling in a two-story house?

Baffle got pounded flatter. The insulation blanket we put in today also.
Goals wise if it heated the whole house that’s would be great but unrealistic...if it takes the propane bill down by a lot that makes me happy.
The living room is where it is installed. High vaulted ceilings and a staircase to three bedrooms upstairs. My bedroom is off the living room
I Will see how we do with some good dry wood tonight and then see what’s next

Does the insulation look like an R-13 batt you would find in a wall, or is it something stiffer? How did you end up putting in the baffle and insulation, insulation above the tubes and the stainless plate on top of the insulation, as it apeared in the diagram?
I don't guess you had time to get the cast collar attachment, so I'd be interested to see what was done with the stove's flue exit connection, and if it connects to an insulated liner inside the air-cooled chimney as bholler asked (I doubt it.) Pics would be great, if it's easy to get the top portion of the mesh surround off to get a camera in there. Seems like you may not be a big pic guy, though..
From your description, sounds like that 1.3 cu.ft. box may only heat the immediate area, living room and maybe master bedroom. But any amount of heat will beat propane only. You can play with ceiling fans or whatever you have at your disposal, to make use of the heat you do get out of the stove. You certainly won't get meaningful heat all night with the small stove.
I'm looking forward to hearing how the little 18 burns (visible secondaries, air control, etc.) now that you've got it closer to how it should be set up. The suspense is almost unbearable! I love new-stove fun!