New Stove or try to re-gasket

[FactorX]

Hi everyone, I'm looking for some advice as to what to do with this stove. We moved into the house 2 years ago and had this big guy in the basement. I had a bunch of wood left over from the previous owner so I have had some experience using it and I have encountered some issues.
1. The interior seems to be damaged both at the back(broken cast iron plate) and at the top (warped baffle).
2. I am having issues controlling the burn. The singular air control on the bottom of the unit doesn't do a great job regulating the heat. I wind up putting 1 or 2 splits in at a time to avoid overheating the room but it burns through them in roughly an hour. This stove goes through wood fast.
3. With the doors closed it is not much to look at. I do have the firescreen that comes with the unit which allows it to operate more like a traditional fireplace but rarely use it as it tends to allow the wood to burn faster and sucks a good bit of air out of the room without providing a ton more heat.

I recently went to two of my local stove/fireplace stores here in North Jersey to get some info on what my options were on re-gasketing or replacing the unit. One is a Lopi dealer and the other a Jotul and quadrafire dealer. I was told by one of the workers that I could try to get new gasket material for the doors but I should try to find the original manual for the unit to figure out what sizing I would need. He did mention with the pictures that I should consider replacing and recommended a F400 if I chose to go that route. The other dealer had a floor model never fired lopi answer that he recommended replacing the stove with.

So on to the details of the house right... it is a 1800sqft ranch not including the basement room the stove is in. That room is about 700 sqft with a stairwell up to our main living room. The ceiling not full height at only about 86in. The hearth is brick on slab and the back wall is brick against cinderblock. It is in the corner of the room and measures 7'x7'. I have a gas fired baseboard hot water system that does the heavy lifting most of the winter. I have a recently lined 8in oval exterior chimney. The draft is strong when I get the fire going but does take a little effort reversing it in the winter.

I don't really have any effective way of distributing heat upstairs other than placing a fan by the stairwell so I'm not sure about stove sizing. I would mostly use the stove at night and all weekend as we aren't home most of the day. I would like some opinions of whether I should just try to re-gasket the doors on this one or pursue purchasing a new one. For a new I would like a relatively large fire view aesthetically but I am concerned about having an oversized stove heating us out of the room. The F400 that was recommended seemed pretty nice overall but the lopi had a tiny window and didn't pass the wife test.

I know that post was long and if you made it to the end I thank you.

 

[weatherguy]

I would definately replace with a more efficient modern stove. What model depends on how much heat you want and what your wife likes.

 

[begreen]

That's an interesting old stove and better than some, but it is deteriorating and not worth spending any money on. A modern stove will burn cleaner, more efficiently and use less wood. Plus you will get a nice fire view!

There are many stoves to choose from in the medium size range. Wife appeal is one thing but that needs to be balanced with satisfaction that it is getting the job done well. The F400 is a very nice stove. It's well made and a good looker. However it does have a shallow firebox that needs a healthy draft in order to avoid smoke spillage when opening the door.

 

[firefighterjake]

Hi everyone, I'm looking for some advice as to what to do with this stove. We moved into the house 2 years ago and had this big guy in the basement. I had a bunch of wood left over from the previous owner so I have had some experience using it and I have encountered some issues.
1. The interior seems to be damaged both at the back(broken cast iron plate) and at the top (warped baffle). Strike One. This stove has seen better days. I would personally not spend the money to fix it up.
2. I am having issues controlling the burn. The singular air control on the bottom of the unit doesn't do a great job regulating the heat. I wind up putting 1 or 2 splits in at a time to avoid overheating the room but it burns through them in roughly an hour. This stove goes through wood fast. Strike Two. A good woodstove and operator should be able to more or less control the burn so that they don't use an excessive amount of wood so quickly . . . and that they don't turn their house into a blast furnace. This stove does not sound as if it can be controlled very well.
3. With the doors closed it is not much to look at. I do have the firescreen that comes with the unit which allows it to operate more like a traditional fireplace but rarely use it as it tends to allow the wood to burn faster and sucks a good bit of air out of the room without providing a ton more heat. Unlike some folks it sounds like you truly want a woodstove that will help heat the house and not just be pretty . . . but like many of us, wouldn't mind looking at something besides a cast iron door. I'm not calling this one a strike, but I might say it's a foul ball as it sounds like you're ready to upgrade.

I recently went to two of my local stove/fireplace stores here in North Jersey to get some info on what my options were on re-gasketing or replacing the unit. One is a Lopi dealer and the other a Jotul and quadrafire dealer. I was told by one of the workers that I could try to get new gasket material for the doors but I should try to find the original manual for the unit to figure out what sizing I would need. He did mention with the pictures that I should consider replacing and recommended a F400 if I chose to go that route. The other dealer had a floor model never fired lopi answer that he recommended replacing the stove with. I concur with both of them . . . I would personally upgrade to a stove that is more efficient, more controllable and not damaged.

So on to the details of the house right... it is a 1800sqft ranch not including the basement room the stove is in. That room is about 700 sqft with a stairwell up to our main living room. The ceiling not full height at only about 86in. The hearth is brick on slab and the back wall is brick against cinderblock. It is in the corner of the room and measures 7'x7'. I have a gas fired baseboard hot water system that does the heavy lifting most of the winter. I have a recently lined 8in oval exterior chimney. The draft is strong when I get the fire going but does take a little effort reversing it in the winter. A few questions: Do you spend much time in this room during the winter or are you mostly upstairs? Is the basement here insulated? Does the woodstove share the same flue as the gas boiler? If you don't spend a lot of time down here and are mostly looking for the heat, I might suggest a stove which is more inexpensive and just as efficient (but to some folks' taste, not quite as pretty) . . . but if you spend a lot of time here then perhaps a prettier stove is worth the expense. Insulated vs. non-insulated basements can be a big deal in terms of sizing the stove and getting the most heat from the stove. I am guessing the gas boiler has a separate chimney, but you never know . . . most states do not allow shared flues. I might also suggest going up one size if you do choose the Jotul due to the basement install and size of the home.

I don't really have any effective way of distributing heat upstairs other than placing a fan by the stairwell so I'm not sure about stove sizing. I would mostly use the stove at night and all weekend as we aren't home most of the day. I would like some opinions of whether I should just try to re-gasket the doors on this one or pursue purchasing a new one. For a new I would like a relatively large fire view aesthetically but I am concerned about having an oversized stove heating us out of the room. The F400 that was recommended seemed pretty nice overall but the lopi had a tiny window and didn't pass the wife test. Again, if the goal is an efficient heating unit, I would go with a replacement stove vs. repairing the old stove.

I know that post was long and if you made it to the end I thank you.

 

[FactorX]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

The basement room this is in is completely finished and mostly insulated, half of the room has brick over cinderblock the other has framing with insulation and sheetrock over the cinderblock wall. It has it's own zone on my baseboard hot water heater as well. Up until this point we didn't spend any time down there because we had no furniture. I think going forward we will be utilizing the space more as we have begun furnishing it. It has a walk out sliding door on the side where the stove is that leads to my back yard. As far as chimney sharing I have a separate chimney on the other side of the basement which services the NG hot water appliances.

In reading up on the f400 I did see what some of you had mentioned as concerns (draft/ small box). I've been looking around at the offerings of different dealers in my area which are far and few between. It seems to me that modern larger stoves may be able to be turned down if they are designed to do so, but too large a stove may make the room uncomfortable. I'm glad everybody came to the same conclusion that it probably should be replaced I was conflicted on what the right thing to do was.

 

[begreen]

If you have a Jotul dealer take a look at the F45 too.

 

[FactorX]

Another question here. I have an 8in oval chimney liner to an 8in connector coming out of the wall. All of the stoves I have seen in the stores only have 6in outlets. What would I have to do to make one of these new stoves work?

A local shop had a pacific energy neo 2.5 for a good price but looking at the installation instructions it says 6in chimney system. Woodstock has a 211 stove and in it's installation manual it states 8in is ok jotul installation literature has similar wording stating "exterior chimney must not exceed 2x the cross sectional area(6in)". If the cross sectional area on a 6in is 28.2in and 8in is 50.2 that would be less than a factor of 2. I would assume this is a common problem with homes that have existing chimneys. Does it make sense to stick to stoves that specifically spell it out in their literature?

 

[EbS-P]

I have had my F400 almost a year now and it’s a great stove. To be honest I got for its looks and the fact I had run one before at my father in laws house. While they are the same stove the behave very differently due to flue setup. I top vented strait up to 13’ of insulated liner and he back vented to 30 or so feet. His has too much draft but still spills more smoke than mine. Your concern about flue size is very valid.

Unlike a new install you could measure your draft while burning your current stove and that might give you more confidence in making a decision regarding weather the existing flue will work well in your new application. Without quantifying it’s draft I would be hesitant to hook of finicky drafting stove like the F400 up to an oversized flue. It might be fine or it might spill a lot of smoke every time the door opens. What is your budget? The do it right the first time method (AKA pay it all up front] would be to replace the 8” with a 6” and never worry about it again other than keeping it clean.

realistically if didn’t want to turn it into a full time wood burner I might get a stove say like the NC-30 and hook it up to the existing flue. It’s oversized for your space (way to big actually it was the first budget stove that came to mind) but you don’t have to load it clear full. You could burn lighter woods like pine and poplar. Is that the best solution, probably not but it might save you thousands. Will it draft well, I don’t know but I think it would have to spill less smoke than an F400 hooked up to an 8” flue. Are you completely set on wood? If not that opens up a whole bunch of other options. Any way things to think about. Keep reading the manuals . My installer half joking half not asked if I wanted to start installing stoves for him. i replied half jokingly sure if they are all F400’s. You probably will know as much as or more than the dealer by the time you know what you want.
Hope that is helpful.
Evan

 

[begreen]

How tall is the liner? Seeing this is a ranch I suspect it is not too high. If that is the case you will want to stick with an easy breathing stove. PE stoves are pretty good this way, so are Enviros and the Hamptons. I looked at several other PE manuals and they say 6" is recommended for optimal performance. The 6" only language appears to be specific to the Neo 2.5 for some reason. That said, the 8" liner is going to be sub-optimal, especially because there are two 90º turns in the flue path.

 

[FactorX]

Thanks Evan not sure what my budget is but I would rather not re-line my chimney as the liner is only 2years old. While I want to supplement my gas heat with the stove it also has to be decent looking as it will be a focal point of my room.

Begreen what would be the best way to measure how tall the liner is? The stove is in the basement I would assume at least 20 feet probably closer to 25. As far as draft the stove that was there had a barometric damper on it, I'm not sure how they work. Would this be indicative of a draft issue? With the doors closed it was always open sucking room air up the chimney. That is interesting about the other stove manuals in their line up maybe I should steer clear of this one.

 

[begreen]

Ah, I didn't know it was in the basement. If that is the case the liner is tall enough, though there might be some negative pressure issues if you are having issues with reverse draft. The barometric damper should be removed. It is not a good idea on a wood stove.

If draft is good then I think you will be ok with a 6" flue stove on the 8" oval as not as the manual does not expressly prohibit it. Are you primarily looking for a contemporary design stove or just a good heater?

 

[FactorX]

We like the contemporaries but are mostly looking for a nice fire view and that woodfire heat.

 

[begreen]

Are the basement walls insulated? Have you heated the house during the winter with the old stove? If so, how well did it do as far as heat going up the stairwell and heating the main floor?

 

[FactorX]

They are half framed and insulated the brick wall side is just cinderblock with brick over. Its comfortable. The stove doesn't really heat the upstairs well I don't get too much of a draft up the stairwell despite it being open. I am open to putting some registers in to allow the heat to rise into the main hallway but I'm not too crazy about the possible noise transferring.

 

[EbS-P]

You have lots of choices. Decisions that might narrow down your selection. And not in any particular order.

First Cat or non catalytic stove. I chose non cat for its simple operation and low maintenance. Cat can stove offer longer burn times with lower heat output.

Second cast iron or jacketed. Cast is more radiant and FEELs hotter also more expensive. Jacketed can have smaller clearances but that does not appear to an issue for you.

third looks. Fourth ash solution. Not having to scoop ash is much cleaner and faster.

I really wanted a white/ ivory cast Non cat stove. In that order. I didn’t have to many choices that were short enough. In fact I think The F400 might have been the only one that met my criteria. I love my Jøtul. Look at a few other models. I just had the manual up for the F500 v3 and it clearly in bold underlined font MUST be a 6” flue. So that one is out. I’m considering a (broken link removed to https://www.drolet.ca/en/products/stoves/) insert for my walk out basement.

 

[begreen]

Yes, I have looked at a few other solutions like the Osburn Matrix and the Englander Madison (50 SSW01). Both would fit the bill, but they strongly recommend staying 6". The Pacific Energy Super would work.

 

[EbS-P]

Are you a Costco member?
(broken link removed)

it’s not the best looker but its easy on he wallet. For a point of reference my white F400 was a little over 3000$.

Manual allows up to 7” round so you would be in the ballpark. It can be ordered with feet and different trim from elsewhere.

 

[FactorX]

Thanks, but it does have strong wording stating the max is 7. I am going to have to pour through a bunch of installation guides now as I also only have an 84" ceiling over the hearth pad, 86" everywhere else. This is harder than I thought it would be. I am aware of the pricing of some of these units and as long as it works well I'm not too concerned about spending a couple of grand on a nice unit. I'm not moving any time soon and plan to get many years of use out of it. The PE deal the shop had was 2700 for a neostone 2.5 with blower + 400 for delivery and install. I thought that was pretty good but obviously the installation guide basically states it shouldn't be installed with my existing chimney so I have a bit more work to do.

 

[EbS-P]

You are correct you need to keep looking. Here is my suggestion. For 50$ you can measure your draft water column.

Dwyer Air Meter Kit, 460, .005-1.0" w.c., 260-4000 FPM with Probes and Carrying case Amazon product ASIN B009P8OKVS
the fact someone thought a barometric damper was needed to lessen the draft through the stove means it’s a really good drafting system or this was how they attempted to lessen the airflow into the stove given all the air leaks. lets say you measure your water column for your 8” and it’s with in the spec listed for a 6” flue does the mean the draft is ok, over-drafting or under drafting. My physics brain says that WC is pressure and that is the same for any cross section with in the system near where the measurement was taken. If it’s in spec it reasonable to expect an ok performing system. But the velocity of the flow will slow down considerably once it enters the larger pipe. If you don’t burn clean and hot creosote could be an issue. I think this has implications related to the size of stove you choose I just don’t know what they are. Big stoves have more draft so higher stack velocity but probably would not be burn at full tilt as often as a smaller one.

How involved do you think you need to be with the installers? Anyone suggesting an F400 in basement a basement hooked up to an 8” system with two 90* elbows I personally would be pretty involved.

last question what is your concern about ceiling height?

 

[EbS-P]

Last thought am I/you/we completely over thinking this? The F400 manual allows stove to be connected to an 8x12 masonry chimney as long as the connection is made with 6” pipe. If you came out of the stove with 6” and tied into existing liner with no more than two 90s it would seem to be a functionally similar install. Probably Been done many times. I only used the F400 as an example and it could be applicable many other stoves. Have fun and enjoy the journey. Now a a good time to figure out next years wood. I’m screaming through my pile.

 

[begreen]

With a 20+ foot tall, 8" liner, the F400 may be happy for the most part. Ask the dealer what their policy is if smoke spillage becomes an issue with the stove. It could be fine, but every house is different.

A word about the manual. An 8 x 12 chimney is going to be roughly 7" x 11" ID. That is a 77 sq in cross-section area. The stove requires only 28 sq in area. 77 sq in is 2.75x larger. That's too much, especially for an exterior chimney. There should be a 6" liner in it. Also, the manual says the masonry chimney must conform to code. As bholler has pointed out many times, it is rare that a masonry chimney has the required code clearances from combustibles. (2" interior, 1" exterior). Thus the need for the liner.