New to Wood Burning and Overwhelmed

[jiujitsuguy]

Hi all,

I apologize if any of these questions has been answered before. I tried to click through the "Start Here" thread but all but a couple of the links won't load.

This is my first year using wood heat after a couple years in our new/first house (she's an old house ~100 years). After some ridiculous oil bills (we have hot water baseboard heating with electric in some rooms) we decided to bite the bullet and invest in a wood insert. We went with a new Enviro Kodiak 1200 insert which was what could fit in the available space.

I've read through the many threads and I guess the only questions I have left are:

1.) Is it possible to fill up the insert too full? The manual says to fill it to the top of the door opening but then goes on to say to not overfill and that 3-4 logs will usually do the trick. I worry about a run away fire, especially if I want to leave it unattended (ie overnight). Does E-W and N-S matter in this regard?

2.) How do people know how hot it is inside the insert? I see for free standing stoves that people use stove top and flue thermometers but I don't think that's an option with inserts, is it? I see some use an IR meter but I also see that it isn't very accurate either for what you need it to do.

3.) When fellow wood burners do an overnight burn/work day burn, what should the fire look like before you close the damper? I'm worried about the fire being a) too hot and potentially over firing while I'm asleep and b.) it smoldering in the middle of the night and getting creosote.

4.) Other than to blow the hot air and distribute it into the room, what function does the fan play? I see some people put it on low during the beginning stages and turning up all the day once it gets hot.

I should mention that I'm also burning maple and birch wood as well and it roughly contains 20% moisture. Having some information to relay to my wife would definitely put her at ease when it comes to not burning the house down lol.

Thanks,

Matt

 

[begreen]

Welcome! Questions answered in context:

I've read through the many threads and I guess the only questions I have left are:

1.) Is it possible to fill up the insert too full? The manual says to fill it to the top of the door opening but then goes on to say to not overfill and that 3-4 logs will usually do the trick. I worry about a run away fire, especially if I want to leave it unattended (ie overnight). Does E-W and N-S matter in this regard?

The wood can be stacked up to about an inch below the tubes. N/S loading allows more wood to be loaded because there is no worry about the wood rolling against the glass. N/S loading also allows air to more easily traverse the length of the logs front to back. The 1200 is a good stove, but the firebox is more of an E/W loader. The amount of logs that can be loaded will vary with the thickness of the wood splits. The fire will not run away if the air is turned down soon enough.

2.) How do people know how hot it is inside the insert? I see for free standing stoves that people use stove top and flue thermometers but I don't think that's an option with inserts, is it? I see some use an IR meter but I also see that it isn't very accurate either for what you need it to do.

Inserts are tougher to tell temperature because of the convective lid on some like the Kodiak. The best place to read the temperature is on the front face, over the door. Get a 2" magnetic thermometer and place it about 4" to the right of the hinge above the door. An alternative would be to get a digital thermometer and read the temp at the flue collar. Both locations are somewhat relative. The best instrument will be your eyes and learning how the fire is burning in response to how the wood has been loaded and how the air is regulated.

3.) When fellow wood burners do an overnight burn/work day burn, what should the fire look like before you close the damper? I'm worried about the fire being a) too hot and potentially over firing while I'm asleep and b.) it smoldering in the middle of the night and getting creosote.

By damper do you mean air control? To start with, just burn fires during the day when you can watch the fire and learn the stove's behavior. Some folks just burn nights and weekends and some burn 24/7. Overnight burns will be a little harder with the 1200 but with practice there may be enough coals for a restart in the morning. With dry wood, the fire will burn down fairly predictably and should not smolder.

4.) Other than to blow the hot air and distribute it into the room, what function does the fan play? I see some people put it on low during the beginning stages and turning up all the day once it gets hot.

The blower extracts heat directly off the stove sides and top. That puts more heat into the room, more rapidly. An insert has about 80% of the stove inside the fireplace so extracting the heat is more important than with a freestanding stove. The blower also pulls in room air to heat up which greatly increases the convection of heat through the room and other spaces open to the stove area.

I should mention that I'm also burning maple and birch wood as well and it roughly contains 20% moisture. Having some information to relay to my wife would definitely put her at ease when it comes to not burning the house down lol.

Take your time and learn from the stove. Ask questions. We all had to start where you are at some point.

 

[jiujitsuguy]

That helps tremendously, thank you!

 

[spudman99]

I like you am in my first year with an insert and have been overly cautious. I second all of @begreen advise above, he is one of the most knowledgeable wood burners probably in the Country, I first used fewer splits than I could have, perhaps half the insert to get used to the burn characteristics and how long a sustainable fire/heat could be obtained. I then came back and asked more questions concerning my habits and stove operation, slowly gaining confidence. Above all..... dry wood is paramount.

If you haven't read so far, dry wood is essential to the proper operation of your insert. If the wood is wet, you will be disappointed and will operate the unit differently Sometimes that is adding more wood to juice the fire when in fact that is counter productive (wet wood added to an already wet slow burning fire only compounds the problem). Controlling the air input is completely different with wet wood as opposed to dry wood. You may leave the air open to encourage the fire, when the moisture is boiled out, the fire can take off.

Start slow which it seems like you are, get a moisture meter if you don't have one. You dropped several thousands on the install, spend another $30 for the meter and that will greatly help you as you learn.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

Hi, Jiujitsuguy. Congratulations on a new insert, and welcome to the world of wood burning. Our family has been burning a new Kodiak 1700, and it’s been great. I wanted to point you to a thread that may be of help to you. I’ve read it a couple of times.

Enviro Wood Stoves

I just bought an Enviro Boston 1700. It’s my first wood stove, so I am a complete newbie. Despite being new to wood stoves, our wood stove experiment has been going well so far, due to the help we’ve received on this forum. While I was researching different stoves, I found several running...

www.hearth.com

The one point that confuses me a bit is why it seems that folks on that thread don’t measure temperatures on the stovetop. If the manual specifies a stovetop temp of 250 to 550 F on the stovetop, shouldn’t we measure on the stovetop? Naturally the jacket is cooler than the steel around the firebox, but I assumed that’s why the lower maximum temperature. (My Lopi specified 800 stovetop.). I definitely get higher temperatures on my Enviro around the door or if I attempt to shoot the firebox or flue collar with my IR gun, but my stovetop likes to be just over 300 with a good fire burning. It’s definitely lower than what I’m used to, but I figure I’m running an Enviro, and they know what temps are good on the top of the stove they designed and tested. @stovelark or @begreen, please correct me if I’m giving a bad interpretation or advice, but it just seems easy to test on top of that jacket and to aim for between 250 and 550.

Begreen gave great answers above to your questions. I have a larger firebox and a much milder climate, so I’ve never tried to fill my box to the max, but I have done some large loads for overnight. I like to let the wood catch well before I shut the air control, and I make adjustments in a couple of stages. I like my wood to be burning between the pieces but not to be an inferno. I want flames on the wood but not that many or that bright. I do want to see many flames above the wood where the wood gasses are igniting and burning in the secondary air. That’s the best description I can give of what I like my fire to look like before I go to bed. I’m afraid I don’t have a picture of that stage and likely won’t for a while. It’s too warm in Texas right now for a fire, but we sure were loving wood heat a few days ago when it was chilly.

The best thing to do is to get to know your stove as you can. Don’t rush it. The good folks here will help.

 

[albrown60]

Hi all,

I apologize if any of these questions has been answered before. I tried to click through the "Start Here" thread but all but a couple of the links won't load.

This is my first year using wood heat after a couple years in our new/first house (she's an old house ~100 years). After some ridiculous oil bills (we have hot water baseboard heating with electric in some rooms) we decided to bite the bullet and invest in a wood insert. We went with a new Enviro Kodiak 1200 insert which was what could fit in the available space.

I've read through the many threads and I guess the only questions I have left are:

1.) Is it possible to fill up the insert too full? The manual says to fill it to the top of the door opening but then goes on to say to not overfill and that 3-4 logs will usually do the trick. I worry about a run away fire, especially if I want to leave it unattended (ie overnight). Does E-W and N-S matter in this regard?

2.) How do people know how hot it is inside the insert? I see for free standing stoves that people use stove top and flue thermometers but I don't think that's an option with inserts, is it? I see some use an IR meter but I also see that it isn't very accurate either for what you need it to do.

3.) When fellow wood burners do an overnight burn/work day burn, what should the fire look like before you close the damper? I'm worried about the fire being a) too hot and potentially over firing while I'm asleep and b.) it smoldering in the middle of the night and getting creosote.

4.) Other than to blow the hot air and distribute it into the room, what function does the fan play? I see some people put it on low during the beginning stages and turning up all the day once it gets hot.

I should mention that I'm also burning maple and birch wood as well and it roughly contains 20% moisture. Having some information to relay to my wife would definitely put her at ease when it comes to not burning the house down lol.

Thanks,

Matt

Welcome to the woodburning Club,
I will try to show you in pictures the way I am running my Regency insert. When I have a good bed of coals, I place 3 splits EW , 2 or 3 NS and another 2 or 3 EW. I let it burning for about 15 minutes with the flu fully open. I then close the flu leaving about one inch open. My fire starts rolling and temperature climbs to around 550/600 F. It will cruise for about 3 hours with good dry hard wood. I want to keep room temperature at 70 F , so I leave the work to the stove. When the temp on the insert goes in the low yellow , I will load again . This insert works 24/7 and my electricity bill was $960 for a 2400 sf house. You will learn pretty fast how to understand to get the maximum out of your insert. Best investment as heating device.

 

[bholler]

Hi, Jiujitsuguy. Congratulations on a new insert, and welcome to the world of wood burning. Our family has been burning a new Kodiak 1700, and it’s been great. I wanted to point you to a thread that may be of help to you. I’ve read it a couple of times.

Enviro Wood Stoves

I just bought an Enviro Boston 1700. It’s my first wood stove, so I am a complete newbie. Despite being new to wood stoves, our wood stove experiment has been going well so far, due to the help we’ve received on this forum. While I was researching different stoves, I found several running...

www.hearth.com

The one point that confuses me a bit is why it seems that folks on that thread don’t measure temperatures on the stovetop. If the manual specifies a stovetop temp of 250 to 550 F on the stovetop, shouldn’t we measure on the stovetop? Naturally the jacket is cooler than the steel around the firebox, but I assumed that’s why the lower maximum temperature. (My Lopi specified 800 stovetop.). I definitely get higher temperatures on my Enviro around the door or if I attempt to shoot the firebox or flue collar with my IR gun, but my stovetop likes to be just over 300 with a good fire burning. It’s definitely lower than what I’m used to, but I figure I’m running an Enviro, and they know what temps are good on the top of the stove they designed and tested. @stovelark or @begreen, please correct me if I’m giving a bad interpretation or advice, but it just seems easy to test on top of that jacket and to aim for between 250 and 550.

Begreen gave great answers above to your questions. I have a larger firebox and a much milder climate, so I’ve never tried to fill my box to the max, but I have done some large loads for overnight. I like to let the wood catch well before I shut the air control, and I make adjustments in a couple of stages. I like my wood to be burning between the pieces but not to be an inferno. I want flames on the wood but not that many or that bright. I do want to see many flames above the wood where the wood gasses are igniting and burning in the secondary air. That’s the best description I can give of what I like my fire to look like before I go to bed. I’m afraid I don’t have a picture of that stage and likely won’t for a while. It’s too warm in Texas right now for a fire, but we sure were loving wood heat a few days ago when it was chilly.

The best thing to do is to get to know your stove as you can. Don’t rush it. The good folks here will help.

Are those temps with the blower on or off? What speed is the blower at? There are just to many variables to make measuring temps on the outside of the jacket a good way to run a stove.

 

[jiujitsuguy]

Welcome to the woodburning Club,
I will try to show you in pictures the way I am running my Regency insert. When I have a good bed of coals, I place 3 splits EW , 2 or 3 NS and another 2 or 3 EW. I let it burning for about 15 minutes with the flu fully open. I then close the flu leaving about one inch open. My fire starts rolling and temperature climbs to around 550/600 F. It will cruise for about 3 hours with good dry hard wood. I want to keep room temperature at 70 F , so I leave the work to the stove. When the temp on the insert goes in the low yellow , I will load again . This insert works 24/7 and my electricity bill was $960 for a 2400 sf house. You will learn pretty fast how to understand to get the maximum out of your insert. Best investment as heating device.

The pictures are super helpful, thanks! So when you say your fire cruises for 3 hours, is that 3 hours 550F stove temps and begins to cool after that, or is that what you get out of a load of logs? When you alternate the log direction, is that just it's easier for the logs to catch on fire?

I ordered a stove top thermometer like you have in your picture so hopefully come Tuesday I'll have a better idea what's happening inside my stove. Thanks again!

 

[albrown60]

Are those temps with the blower on or off? What speed is the blower at? There are just to many variables to make measuring temps on the outside of the jacket a good way to run a stove.

Always blower on at low for me . In my opinion, working with 2 thermometers will give a good indication on how you run it to get the desired temperature in the space you want to heat. Yes there are variables like outside temp and how well the house is insulated.

 

[bholler]

Always blower on at low for me . In my opinion, working with 2 thermometers will give a good indication on how you run it to get the desired temperature in the space you want to heat. Yes there are variables like outside temp and how well the house is insulated.

I don't use thermometers to get the desired level of heat at all. I use them to make sure I am not over or underfiring the stove.

 

[albrown60]

The pictures are super helpful, thanks! So when you say your fire cruises for 3 hours, is that 3 hours 550F stove temps and begins to cool after that, or is that what you get out of a load of logs? When you alternate the log direction, is that just it's easier for the logs to catch on fire?

I ordered a stove top thermometer like you have in your picture so hopefully come Tuesday I'll have a better idea what's happening inside my stove. Thanks again!

With a full load, it will run at 550 / 600 for to 90 minutes. That warm up the space pretty fast. It will start going down slowly in the 400 for another 90 minutes and it can stay in the 300 F for a good 2 hres. Like right now, it is -18 C outside so I am using more wood to keep the inside at 70F but if temp outside is -5 C, I will maintained the fire at 350 F. With the stove thermometer, you will get a better idea when to add wood , and yes there are a lot of variable that are easy to work with.

 

[albrown60]

The pictures are super helpful, thanks! So when you say your fire cruises for 3 hours, is that 3 hours 550F stove temps and begins to cool after that, or is that what you get out of a load of logs? When you alternate the log direction, is that just it's easier for the logs to catch on fire?

I ordered a stove top thermometer like you have in your picture so hopefully come Tuesday I'll have a better idea what's happening inside my stove. Thanks again!

for the direction of logs, it is always better to have the top one going NS so that they will not roll into the door.

 

[Sawset]

I don't use thermometers to get the desired level of heat at all. I use them to make sure I am not over or underfiring the stove.

On the other hand, if it's -40f out, and I want that stove cranked, I'll monitor the stove top to maintain as high a level as I can, yet avoiding an overfire too. Most of the time I don't care, because I'm not pushing it, and confidence says - I'm ok. But if I am pushing it, inquiring minds want to know.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

Are those temps with the blower on or off? What speed is the blower at? There are just to many variables to make measuring temps on the outside of the jacket a good way to run a stove.

I should have specified that I try to measure temperatures with the blower off. We usually run the insert with it on, but since it’s new, I’ve been doing a lot of testing to see what temps are at various points. I don’t run my stove by them—it’s more by visual cues, but I do want to verify that things are neither too hot nor too cool. This jacketed stove definitely runs differently from my old Lopi. I pushed that insert hard and watched it carefully. It often cruised over 700, and I made sure the top was below 300 before I thought about loading it again. The Enviro is a whole different animal. It has a bigger firebox and milder climate, so it isn’t being pushed. We want to burn our small fires hot, but it has seen some pretty large loads that include high btu live oak. Even then with good secondary action the stovetop temperature is not above 400. I’ll see higher (550) if I try to shoot the collar, but I know that’s not accurate either because it’s not possible to get to it. I’m afraid that I don’t see myself ever getting a thermocouple to stick back there. I’m happy that my small hot fires with nice long secondaries are giving me temps exactly where the manufacturer specifies that they should be.

@jiujitsuguy, I took some pictures this morning of a small fire at various points. Since then it looks like Begreen made a sticky about starting a fire that could be very useful: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/starting-a-fire.179714/ . Another user also just posted a nice shot of his newly reinstalled 1200: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/im-back.179711/ . Since I took mine, I’ll put them in in case it helps. Just do realize this is with only five small pieces of wood, not anywhere close to a full box. (Actually my device is not letting me. I’ll post this and see if I can then edit them into it.)

 

[jiujitsuguy]

I should have specified that I try to measure temperatures with the blower off. We usually run the insert with it on, but since it’s new, I’ve been doing a lot of testing to see what temps are at various points. I don’t run my stove by them—it’s more by visual cues, but I do want to verify that things are neither too hot nor too cool. This jacketed stove definitely runs differently from my old Lopi. I pushed that insert hard and watched it carefully. It often cruised over 700, and I made sure the top was below 300 before I thought about loading it again. The Enviro is a whole different animal. It has a bigger firebox and milder climate, so it isn’t being pushed. We want to burn our small fires hot, but it has seen some pretty large loads that include high btu live oak. Even then with good secondary action the stovetop temperature is not above 400. I’ll see higher (550) if I try to shoot the collar, but I know that’s not accurate either because it’s not possible to get to it. I’m afraid that I don’t see myself ever getting a thermocouple to stick back there. I’m happy that my small hot fires with nice long secondaries are giving me temps exactly where the manufacturer specifies that they should be.

@jiujitsuguy, I took some pictures this morning of a small fire at various points. Since then it looks like Begreen made a sticky about starting a fire that could be very useful: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/starting-a-fire.179714/ . Another user also just posted a nice shot of his newly reinstalled 1200: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/im-back.179711/ . Since I took mine, I’ll put them in in case it helps. Just do realize this is with only five small pieces of wood, not anywhere close to a full box. (Actually my device is not letting me. I’ll post this and see if I can then edit them into it.)

Appreciate it! I put about 5 medium sized splits in the box tonight and my wife looked at me like I'm a secret arsonist LOL. Would be nice to see the different stages in people's burn cycles so I/other newbies can get a general idea of what to expect.

For example, I know a lot of people watch how the flame looks when judging when to open or close the air control. For someone like me, I might close it too early thinking the flames are too intense but to a seasoned wood burner, the flames would appear to be perfectly fine.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

Okay. I can at least see the photos now. Let’s see if I can explain them. Information about each photo precedes the picture itself.

This was about 11:20 this morning. These are five small branches, three hackberry and two oak. I’ve loaded it much more full before. We simply wanted just a bit of heat but not tons of BTU’s. These flames weren’t raging, but I could tell that all my pieces were well caught, and I don’t get much secondary action if I leave it fully open. My stovetop temperature was only about 180 at this point, I believe, but it doesn’t heat as fast without the secondaries.



I adjust the primary in just about an inch (that’s eyeballing things, I haven’t measured). The flames definitely change, but they intensify over the next few minutes instead of dying.



This photo was at 11:27. It’s a darker picture because I turned off the lights because of glare. You can see the wood gases igniting at the top of the box.


Ten minutes later it was quite a blaze, so I cut the primary air again, not all the way yet.


This is what it looked like pretty much as soon as I cut it, and it intensified pretty quickly.



It only took a couple minutes for me to decide to cut the air fully, and this is what it looked like immediately after that last reduction. It was hard to get the best picture, but I’m trying to point out how the gases are igniting above the wood. That’s the goal.



This was just about noon, about 40 minutes from the beginning, 20 minutes after I cut the air completely. You can see that there isn’t much active flame on the wood, but it is burning. Having the pieces near each other helps them radiate heat one to another, and there’s enough heat to keep the gases burning. Having smaller fires can actually be a challenge because it can be hard to get enough heat. I think the stovetop was over 300 at this point.



Here it is an hour after that last shot with secondaries still going. I had kept the blower off early in the burn to measure temperatures, but I had turned it on at noon. It was measuring about 290 at this point. The secondaries actually continued for a while after this. When they were gone, I did open the air back up, and it provided nice heat till late afternoon when my son thought we needed to add some wood. We really probably didn’t, but I let him put a few pieces in because he enjoyed the radiant heat while we finished up some schoolwork he wasn’t really enjoying.



At no point in this burn did I really think the flames were too intense. I was really cutting things back as soon as possible to encourage the secondary burn. Even though this was a small midday load, I was trying to run it the way I would shut down in stages for an overnight burn because you had asked specifically about that.

I think it’s good to be cautious about running full loads until you’ve practiced on small ones, then a big load one day when you can watch it. If you and your wife both have time, it’s great to have her watch what you’re doing and explain what you’re trying to achieve. I spend more time with the woodstove than my husband does because my kids chose to do their schoolwork in front of it, but he learned our last one well, and we’re enjoying learning this one together.

I’m afraid I have no big overnight load to show you. The house is warm enough, and it won’t go down much overnight. Depending on how fast the cold air moves in, I might have one tomorrow. Or maybe I’ll just ask @lml999 to take some photos if he can since he’s got the same insert and lots of cold.

 

[lml999]

With regard to the blower. We used ours for a while on our Enviro 1200 insert, then it got noisy. I cleaned it, looked into replacing it, finally just unplugged it. There is some difference in the amount of heat moved but frankly, I'll trade that for the silence. The stove is in our primary living space, the "great room" off the kitchen, with the tv and a view of the woods, skylights, etc...

Also, by the way, a good block-off plate will help you reclaim some of that heat, versus letting it go up the chimney. I installed one myself in our last house...made a template with cardboard, then cut sheetmetal. Two pieces made installation easy. I also put a good amount of Roxul insulation above the plate. For our latest installation, the installer essentially covered the damper (a bit higher up in the fire box) with a nice sheet of metal. Well sealed.

Makes a big difference. Easy to do if you're handy. Get a pair of tin snips to cut the metal, and wear gloves. Lots of good information about block-off plates elsewhere on the forum...

 

[jolby]

Been heating with a Buck stove since winter 2010--11, and follow what begreen said. I put an Inferno therm above my door and go by that, e.g., I know there will be enough coals for a reload when it gets back to 200-250. I do not go above 700 and if it looks like I might, I cut the fan on which I normally do not run. One description of how to set the air control that has stuck with me came from begreen. He said that when the fire gets going really strong to cut the air back until the flames are lazy.

 

[jiujitsuguy]

So been experimenting throughout the day today trying different combinations of things. So far I've found that loading my insert N-S gives me a much better fire in terms of heat and not having to fiddle with the air supply very often.

At the end of the night here I had what I thought was a nice bed of coals to throw 4 medium sized splits N-S. It didn't take very long for the wood to catch and I closed the door and closed the draft to 50%. After maybe about a minute of two, I fully closed the draft.

Eventually, even with the draft fully closed, my flames were going pretty good. I was trying to get a nice lazy flame. I attached a picture here of what it looked like. It's been about 20-30 min and it's about half the flames now.

I guess my question is, did I reload too quickly? Or is that level of fire normal for the draft closed? I imagine having that thermometer would make things easier eventually.

 

[begreen]

Yes, putting wood on a large bed of coals is going to heat up the wood rapidly causing it to offgas strongly. As the gases ignite strong secondary combustion takes place. Next time, open up the air to say 50% and put a couple small 2" thick splits on the hot coal bed and let that burn down.

No harm, this was not a large load of new wood, it's all part of learning. Looks like it was a nice light show for half an hour.

 

[jmdavis984]

I guess my question is, did I reload too quickly? Or is that level of fire normal for the draft closed? I imagine having that thermometer would make things easier eventually.

That's what I am discovering. If I try to put in my overnight load when the coals are too hot, then I have a fire that gets WAY too hot. I am still learning, but cooling the coal bed definitely seems to help me control the burn rate.

 

[jiujitsuguy]

Hi all,

Quick update. Finally got my magnetic stove top thermometer. Was hoping someone could take a look at the attach picture and see if I have it in a good enough place. My only concern I suppose is that it's right underneath the blower. Will the blower's hot affect the temperature?

I appreciate the insight shared already. The internet can be a wonderful thing lol.

 

[Gearhead660]

I have a different insert but that's roughly where i have mine too. Blower doesn't affect it.

 

[lml999]

I keep mine on the stove top of my insert. Easy to read there, maybe a bit higher reading than on the front.

 

[jiujitsuguy]

I keep mine on the stove top of my insert. Easy to read there, maybe a bit higher reading than on the front.

When you say stove top, is that on the jacket or is it on the actual top of the insert?