Newbie in cold climate looking for advice on what to install/upgrade

[ylekyote]

Howdy...

I just moved into a home in central CO at about 6,000 feet elevation. Winters here aren't horrible, but it gets its fair share of cold nights and windy cold days. I have a 2,200 SF home with about 1,000 on each level, both with equal amounts of living quarters and bedrooms. Presently I have a gas boiler and solar thermal tank (with collector tubes on the roof) that heat the in-floor radiant heat. However, the bottom story does not work and I believe it is due to some of the valves and pumps being inoperable. I am trying to find a plumber or solar tech who can help analyze and fix that.

I also have a wood stove on each level. These make up my heat sources. The bottom floor wood stove is a Scan 61 which we don't like. It's too contemporary looking. The upstairs has a Vermont Castings stove that is about 22 years old and needs some work. It has a CAT element that most people seem to like, but I'd rather have a modern design that doesn't need the CAT. Trying to sell both here:
http://westslope.craigslist.org/hsh/4092950715.html I attached pics of them also...sorry they are dirty.

I like the idea of an exterior wood burning furnace because from what I gather they can be configured to heat my domestic water, in-floor heat, as well as blow forced air into the home. Is this right?

I have other questions and info that I have drafted below. Long post...sorry.

We are considering upgrading our heating sources. Each level has about 1,000 SF. The downstairs stove is in the center of the floorplan. The upstairs stove is on one corner of the floorplan. Not sure what I should replace the current poor condition stoves with. We want to upgrade them with something.

Fallen and standing wood (mostly Juniper) is plentiful on our land, and purchased wood is about $160 a cord for dried/split evergreen types, delivered. Hard wood is harder to find and is more expensive, like $235+ for a 4x4x8 cord. Pellets are available for about $205 a pallet. I think those are 50, 40-lb bags on each pallet.

I have never used burning stoves before so I'm getting smart on them presently. Was wondering if anyone could recommend what would be the most user-friendly and versatile due to our home design and needs.

I sort am leaning towards putting a pellet stove in the downstairs playroom where the kids sleep and a wood stove or alternative burning stove (like a Rocket Mass Stove) upstairs in our living room. I thought this configuration would give the most safety and be versatile. That way if we are ever powerless we can still use the upstairs wood stove for emergency heating/cooking. And the downstairs pellet stove could be used as-needed and not require so much tending to. I understand pellet stoves don't require as frequently cleaning because they burn more controlled and higher temps.

Questions:

1. I kinda like the longer stoves with the door in the front and the vent in the back. Are these good designs? I figure they would be best for loading and leaving the door open (because the wood is in the rear). A drawback may be harder to clean from the bottom-up due to the vent location being in the rear and the stove being longer. There is one here fore just $280 from Sportsman's Guide. It seems a tad small though:
http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/....aspx?a=609100

2. A local wood stove place disuaded me from buying a CAT element stove because of the routine maintenance and he said the newer wood stoves with their reburning designs are almost as good as the CAT stoves. It also disuaded me from buying a pellet stove because of the cost of pellets and need for electric power (but we don't have that many outages).

3. Is glass on the front of a wood stove problematic or negatively effect heat output? I think solid metal would radiate more heat and hold it better/longer. Is there any functional benefit to having glass?

4. I have these concerns to cover with whatever I buy: The upstairs hearth area is all protected, but the downstairs is not (see pics). I am concerned my wife needs a simple design that is difficult to mess up, as she is busy with kids and isn't as observant as I am...so I am concerned about fire hazards basically.

5. Is there an interior wood stove that heats water/glycol and use radiators in the home to disperse the heat? Or some other form of dispersion like forced air from the exterior to the interior (if this exists)? Something like a Hardy Heater? Or must I have an exterior furnace to heat my radiant heat and domestic hot water?

6. If I have the space should I consider a cooking wood stove so it is more versatile and holds more thermal energy to let off? The couple I have seen online seem to have a very small opening for wood. We would not cook on it much, only for fun or in outages or if were out of propane.

7. Is a Rocket Mass Stove an option? Are there professional contractors that will build one while I observe? They look really sweet, but unsure how safe they are and if they have been proven to be reliable. Can the Rocket Mass Stove be modified to heat domestic hot water too? I have in-floor radiant heat that is hooked to a gas furnace and thermal collector tubes (solar tubes on the roof). If the Rocket Mass Stove could be used to burn wood and supplement the in-floor heat and domestic hot water, that would be ideal. Right?

Your thoughts and guidance are very much appreciated! Chris

 

[begreen]

1) don't put one of these cheap box stoves in your house. They are dangerous, leaky and prone to cracks. In general they make better flower planters than stoves. Look for stoves that have squarish fireboxes like the Napoleon 1400 series (or their economy line Timberwolf stoves) , Pacific Energy Super 27 (or economy line True North TN19), Osburn 2000 (or economy Drolet Eastwood 1800), Englander 13 NC, or Century FW3000 (model CB00008)

2) Cat stoves are fine but they are generally more expensive and will need a little more maintenance and are a little more complex to operate.

3) Ceramic glass windows are on almost every new stove. They work fine.

4) You may want to go with an ember only hearth stove that has close clearances. If so that will reduce the choices from the above list.

5) Not common at all in the US. I would forget looking for this option

6) Most of the stoves listed above will work for cooking on the stove top

7) Nah, but a masonry heater might be. Note they weigh a couple tons and therefore need a strong support base. And they are not cheap.

Have you checked the stove manual to see if the VC stove is installed legally according to its clearance requirements. It looks very close to the wall. The blackened glass on the Scan shows that it has been burnt in improperly. These stoves are not garbage burners. Run correctly that glass should be clear.

Try getting some high altitude spruce to burn. I'm told it's quite slow growing and therefore as dense as hardwood.

 

[ylekyote]

Thanks begreen. I need a stove installed fast and good in my lower level so I can have decent heat this fall/winter as I figure out what to upgrade and how. I can get a Vogelzang Ponderosa at Tractor Supply for about $1,100 plus installation. What is your opinion on these? They seem to get decent reviews online from the Tractor Supply store.

 

[begreen]

I would keep the Scan for this season. It is newer and a decent stove. The VC stove looks shot and is your bigger concern. That is where I would spend the money. There are some recent postings on the Ponderosa, use the Search function on this forum to find threads on the topic. Here is a good one:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/vogelzang-ponderosa.92630/

PS: Have both flues been cleaned professionally? Don't start the season without doing this first.

 

[ylekyote]

I know the Scan may be a decent stove, but i don't think it is vented right. There is only one 35 degree or so detour in the pipe (shown I think) so I don't think that is it. The previous owner said it was always a pain to start, but burned ok once started. I don't think he knew what he was doing when installed or burning because of the poor condition of both stoves. I tried all day to get it to start and couldn't. The draft seemed poor. I cleaned it myself from the top-down and from bottom up to insure nothing was blocking the pipe.

So even though the Scan is in better condition, the setup doesn't allow me to use it. I think if I replaced it first, I could have the stovepipe issue fixed (if there is a problem there) and have heat for my downstairs that would drift upwards also. Then I could figure out what to do with the upstairs unit (which will be to replace it I'm sure at this point). I really want an outdoor wood boiler furnace that can provide all the hot water I need plus remedy my operational safety concerns.

 

[begreen]

Sounds like poor draft. This could be negative pressure, not untypical in a basement install. If this is the case another stove could have the same problem. What type of chimney does the stove connect to? What is the ID of this chimney? Also this could be an altitude issue. You need more chimney height at 6000 ft. How tall is it?

 

[ylekyote]

I will look around on the pipe but I haven't noticed any documentation as I was tinkering with fire building (that failed). I have some of the manuals that were passed to me too, but unsure which chimney is which. They seem to be high grade type. I will measure the height too while at it and take a picture of the setup. There is a little high place on my roof that may block some of the wind and may negatively effect the draft. Hundreds of years of fire building + the Internet and people still install expensive fireplaces and pipes wrongly. lol. I would much rather pay a professional with credentials to do it right the first time rather than do it myself and jack it all up.

 

[ylekyote]

Maybe I will put the new stove upstairs then and get rid of the uncontrollable dragon first, lol. That would likely be the wisest thing to do eh? Maybe the downstairs isn't suitable for a stove at all, like you said. I know I don't like the fact that there isn't a straight pipe on the Scan. There is another location I could put a wood stove in the basement and have a pipe straight up, but it would have windows on 2 sides (walk out basement), not be centrally located (not too badly off-set though), and not be under my stairs so the warm air could draft up as easily (but a fan could blow it up...stairs only like 15 feet away). I will take pics of those areas also for opinions on placement.

However, if I am to upgrade the radiant floor heat with all the $ that will use, and buy a new outside boiler, I may just ditch the downstairs stove altogether. Unneeded at that point. Just a space user and heat leaker at that point. That is likely what I'll do: remove the downstairs stove altogether, replace the upstairs stove, and then work on the radiant floor heat and outdoor boiler/furnace.

 

[begreen]

The Scan needs to be connected to 6" chimney pipe. I would estimate it may need to be a good 20-25 ft tall for your altitude. One thing you can try is to use a propane torch up near the flue exit from the stove to try and warm up the chimney before starting. Maybe try cracking open a nearby window or door downstairs before trying to start the stove and see if that helps. If it does, the stove needs an outside air kit. Also make sure there are no exhaust fans running in the house when trying to start the stove, nor competing appliances running in the basement like the dryer, furnace or boiler, etc..

 

[ylekyote]

Yes it's a 6" pipe...I remember from the brush size. My VC is an 8" wire. The Scan vent used a poly 6". It is at least 20 feet from the stove to the top.

The previous owner said he had to shove paper as far as he could up the pipe and light it to get it started. That seems ridiculous to live with that. My wife would never do that either. I put a few wads of paper on the top plate area and warmed up the pipe. That smoke went up right. It's just that when a fire is built in the lower part it doesn't go up well, leaks, smolders and goes out.

At this point I'm reluctant to try to this Scan again. It was a mess to pull out the half-charred wood. And it smoked up the top level of the house because my stairs are right there.

I will get the data and get back on here later today...after the Dish dude comes out to attempt to fix my super turtle slow internet issues, lol. $50 a month for dial-up speed Internet...wonderful. Dish claims 5MB downloads and 1 MB uploads. I'm getting .3MB downloads and .1MB uploads. The 2nd tech told me this was common and Dish false advertises alot. The tech used SkyBeam instead of Dish, the only 2 options in my area.

 

[begreen]

You might try my suggestion of opening a nearby window or door a crack. That will help break negative pressure. Then I would warm up the chimney and start a top down fire with dry kindling only. Split up pieces of construction scraps would work well. Try starting a top down fire as in this video and leave the door ajar about 1/2" until the fire is burning robustly enough for you to add more split construction scraps.

For the top down starting technique look at the efficient woodstove operation (bottom) video: http://www.woodheat.org/wood-heat-videos.html

 

[__dan]

With the radiant loads, a pellet boiler in parallel with the propane would be the most likely solution. The pellet boiler will have a smaller install footprint and much better ability to stay on and turndown the fire to match the load, which will yield the best efficiency. Pellet or indoor cordwood gasification boiler with storage, if you absolutely want to burn wood. An OWB is a poor choice to match with your load. You need a small constant heat source to feed the radiant instead of a high output wood gobbler.

If you do not want the aesthetics of the woodstove but are considering a significant capital investment in the stoves to get them operational, the money spent on the stoves may yield much better if put into a high quality state of the art pellet boiler.

Ooops, I see I was reading in the wrong thread. Still, if you have radiant but don't want the propane bill, I would be looking at a pellet boiler.

 

[begreen]

We had a mod (MSG) who retired from here years back that lived in the CO mtns.. He had an electric hot water heat storage tank that was powered at night at a very low electric rate. Then it was allowed to dissapate its heat during the day when rates were high.

 

[akbear]

besides a dedicated wood fired boiler (and up here the outdoor types are pretty well demonised for their ability to smoke out whole neighbourhoods and eat large quantities of wood at one chomp), it would seem if you are looking to do hydronic heating with a woodstove you'd be getting yourself in the cookstove realm, but that usually comes at the price of much smaller fireboxes and shorter burn times.

 

[ylekyote]

besides a dedicated wood fired boiler (and up here the outdoor types are pretty well demonised for their ability to smoke out whole neighbourhoods and eat large quantities of wood at one chomp), it would seem if you are looking to do hydronic heating with a woodstove you'd be getting yourself in the cookstove realm, but that usually comes at the price of much smaller fireboxes and shorter burn times.

why would a cookstove (as in a stove top and oven?) be used to heat water? And how?

My wife and I were discussing it and it seems like buying, or a mix of cutting and buying, 5 to 10 cords of wood each year would be almost as costly as buying a full 500 gal tank of propane (if not more). The wood fire furance/boiler allows for independence, but it is about as costly.

Since my gas boiler is relatively new, and I have a gas back-up 12kw generator that is also as new (about 4 or 5 years), it doesn't make $ sense for us to shut either of them down and invest in a new wood fire boiler that would cost us about $5,000 (if not more) and cost a lot of time/work/$ in wood fuel.

The idea of a pellet fueled boiler that burns consistent and steady for the radiant heat seems like a good idea. If I could tie it into my existing gas and thermal solar system. But I'd have to have that inside right? If so, I wonder if I could have it in the space where my Vermont Castings stove is (upstairs) and get any additional use out of it, such as localized heat, or flame viewing?

 

[begreen]

Why would it take 10 cord a year to heat the house? How many sq ft are you heating? I'd put the Scan up where the VC is. That won't cost anything and will give you a start for this winter. A pellet boiler is neither aesthetically pretty, nor is its fire. It is not quiet. Things to consider before putting it in the core living area of the house.

 

[ylekyote]

I said 10 cord because the websites for wood furnaces were saying 6 to 8 cord a winter for heat and hot water. So I added a few more for the rest of the year, heating of hot water.

 

[begreen]

OWBs can be notorious fuel pigs. How many sq ft are you heating?

 

[ylekyote]

2800 sf total, but only about 2400 of it is living space.

 

[begreen]

I can see why the two stove approach. Run the basement stove for mild weather and run both when it gets cold. If the place is well insulated and has solar supplemental heat I would think that 4-5 cords would suffice to heat it. Did you try lighting up the Scan again with construction scraps, top down lighting and a nearby door or window cracked open?

Here is a helpful article that explains what I think may be happening with the Scan stove.
http://woodheat.org/all-about-chimneys.html

 

[ylekyote]

I can see why the two stove approach. Run the basement stove for mild weather and run both when it gets cold. If the place is well insulated and has solar supplemental heat I would think that 4-5 cords would suffice to heat it. Did you try lighting up the Scan again with construction scraps, top down lighting and a nearby door or window cracked open?

Here is a helpful article that explains what I think may be happening with the Scan stove.
http://woodheat.org/all-about-chimneys.html

Not yet. I may try again because now I'm curious. I couldn't get the top-down video to start...I have DISH internet and sometimes it really sucks. Do you mean put a few kindling pieces on the top fire brick self and light them near the top of the pile? And then build a fuel stack below them and light that after the pipe is hot, while leaving a window and possible the ash tray cracked for a few minutes?

I will get measurements of my pipe and brand on Monday.

 

[ylekyote]

So far I have three potential wood stoves that I'm considering for my upstairs main living area (about 1,000 to 1,200 SF) (no particular order):

1. Regency Classic F3100 ($???)
2. Englander 30 NC ($900)
3. Vogelzang Ponderosa ($1,100).

Price wise, the Englander seems like the no brainer.
If I have existing 8" pipe and hearth area of stone/cement, what cost might I expect for installation? Should I install a new pipe too?

I may place a pellet or coal boiler, as other members suggested, in my basement or outside in a shed as my gas boiler ages. Not sure yet what is possible. I don't have a place indoors for a hot tank to hold heated water. My indoor cistern, gas boiler, and solar tank is using all of the mech room area at present. I'd have to put it outdoors. I do not want to be cutting, loading and buying wood and dealing with erratic burn times, so I think a pellet or coal stove would be better, but leaning towards the coal stove if it can burn wood and other material also (unsure exactly what it can burn though). Plus, the coal is more durable and easier for storage conditions, which is nice.

Anyone have suggestions on a medium coal burning stove to put in my basement that I could use plumbing to assist my gas and solar in-floor heat? Not sure how I would do that, or if it's possible at all.

 

[akbear]

why would a cookstove (as in a stove top and oven?) be used to heat water? And how?

Most cookstoves come with some sort of water heating option (I imagine even mine would if they were importing more than just a single model/style/option package as there are even knockouts on the back of my stove). There are three types, a reservoir, which is simply a static system of an add on tank that you pour water in and either dip it out or let it flow out of a spigot; a water jacket, which is a tank next to the firebox that heats up a quantity of water and can be plumbed to a system (which could include an external watertank if the size was not adequate); and a water coil, which runs water over or next to the fire and is hooked up to a system with an external holding tank. The only stove only unit (just a cooktop with no oven) that I'm aware of that's easily found is the Margin Flameview Heater, but there certainly could be others (personally I wouldn't want something without an oven, which is why I got a cookstove in the first place as pretty much any woodstove with a flat uninsulated top could be cooked on).

If the ability to make the stove do double or triple duty is still something you wish to research, there are a few threads on here that do touch on the subject (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/kitchen-queen-cookstove-and-radiant-heat.84656/ is one example), but as most of the conversations and people on here seem to be geared more towards heating stoves and inserts, you might have better luck finding more information on homesteading or survivalist forums, googling heating water with wood, or even visiting woodstove sites that carry cookstoves to see what sort of options are out there. (and too, I might add, even if you scrap the idea of supplementing with hydronic heating, heating water for domestic is one of the most popular ways most people use such a system as a way to reduce utility costs)

 

[blades]

Wood/coal, Two complete/y different burning characteristics. Any unit designed for coal is going to be fantastically in-efficient at wood burning regardless of the mfg. marketing departments claims. One of the difficulties here is that you are trying to mix too many different systems in to one and at the same time apply the kiss principal for your wife. Wood stove and pellet stoves are area heat appliances ie space heaters, treat as such. If your goal is to reduce propane use/cost this they will do. In the case of a pellet fired unit you are simply trading one fuel for another with no real cost savings and have to have an additional power source in order to function. Outdoor wood burners are also very in-efficient at the present time and not Kiss friendly, as well as avg. installation cost being closer to $10,000. Half of that is the cost of the boiler itself most of the time. Indoor wood boilers look to the European market for the unit, light years ahead of anything domestically made stateside or Canada. ( sorry troops but it is the truth) Also with hot water heat, insulated storage is the key using wood fired appliances as the heat source. It is possible to add a preheat water loop to just about any heat source for the hot water heater just takes a bit of out of the box thinking. Basement installs are always a problem with start up draft, a draft inducer for start up would correct that difficulty Nothing more than a small fan blowing air up the flue until natural heat rise takes over ( not unlike all the new furnaces with the combustion exhaust blowers). Again just a bit of out of the box thinking can resolve that issue. There are some fancy kits on the market for that as well. Erratic burn times- take a lesson from others in the far northern reaches, Big Stoves with cats are the way to fly or maybe the latest in the combined technology - Hy-bred stoves, some of these require no external power.
Any boiler system is going to require external power, so if that is of some concern than a jen set, propane or cng fuel would be a wise acquisition. Just some ramblings from an old school street smarts type.

 

[peakbagger]

An OWB is not the way to go and their advertising is extremely disingenuous at best (outright misstatements at worse), They will state the efficiency at full load and act like that's what you will get all the time. Rarely is this so, most of the time they are running dampened down with the air cut off and then they are major polluters. They can be used in tandem with a large hot water storage tank but an OWB and storage is going to be a 15 K experience. If wood is free and you don't mind cutting or buying twice as much plus fill the surrounding area with the odor of burning trash when its the air inlet is closed, an OWB will work but most folks would prefer to keep the air clean and use the minimum amount of wood.

An indoor wood boiler has the same limitations if they lack storage and most legitimate indoor wood boiler companies will not guarantee a unit without storage.

I do know of homemade systems that install a coil on either the top of a woodstove or the back and circulate the water through baseboard heat.(Note, these coils are external to the stove body not install inside. I wouldn't recommend it for underslab radiant as there is no control over the temp in the loop unless you install a variable speed drive and some controls to keep the temp constant. There has to be a very good system to be able to take the loop out of the circuit if there is no power as the if the loop loses power and the stove is running, the system could boil the water in the coil and cause a line to split and spray steam everywhere.