Newbie seeks advice replacing a fireplace insert with a wood stove

[Stanford41d]

I'll try to condense my situation and questioning as best I can for a long-winded Tennessee transplant from Georgia. I live in a rural setting about an hour north of Knoxville. I have an all electric home and we do lose power fairly often. My home is a cottage of sorts in a wooded setting very near a lake. This will be my second winter here, and if it's anything like last year with several nights with sub-teen temps, I'm gonna need a good back up, and possibly main, source of heat.
My cottage is a cinder block single level home clad in vinyl (Ugh!), but is relatively air-tight and the windows are double-pane. The floors in crawl space are insulated pretty well, as are the ceiling joists in the attic. The house has a fireplace on the exterior wall on one end. I have been up on the roof and inspected the chimney.
The chimney is also cinder block, with terracotta liner and a flexible metal liner. The liner was supposed to have been replaced about three years ago, and appears to be relatively clean. Inside the living room, the liner is attached to an old Forester wood burning insert that is in poor shape. The blower motor is slow to start up and I feel is on its last legs. The damper is completely missing and the firebox and glass doors and all are sooty and and dirty. The previous owner, a little old lady, had nearly set the house on fire by burning cedar in it. I was told that is why the liner was replaced.
The inside dimensions of the fireplace are approximately 28" H x 33" W x 22" D. The depth of the hearth is about 22". The hearth height from floor to top of it, is about one-foot. And, this is a big concern, the ceiling height is only a shade over seven-foot. In some of my research I have noticed manufacturers requiring approximately 50 inches or so, in terms of distance from top of stove to ceiling.
Finally, here my questions that I would like feedback on. 1) If I can find a stove short enough in height, so that it can be set up inside of fireplace, can I attach the flexible liner directly to collar on stove. That appears to be the way the current insert is attached, as much as I can tell my prying the panels back on the sides and peering in there with a flashlight.
2) Any recommendations on stoves well under $1000 that would fit this type of installation?
3) My other thought was to place a stove on a hearth pad in front of hearth and turn flue back toward the chimney with an elbow and a piece or two of piping, and attaching that to liner. But, it seems like manufacturers say that you must have some vertical rise before turning flue horizontally?
4) This leads to another question. It seems as though the vast majority of wood stoves have top mounted exhaust and very few with rear venting, particularly in my price range.
5) Also, how do you go about making (?) or acquiring a properly sized plate to seal off the rectangular opening at top of fireplace box (lintel area) to accommodate flexible liner. This was not done in current installation, and I believe was one of many contributing factors that resulted in poor operation of wood burning insert the few times I used it last winter.
Any feedback you folks could offer would be greatly appreciated. And by the way, I have thoroughly enjoyed your forum so far. I'm very glad I found it.
Best regards,
Newbie who is anxious to become a wood burner.

 

[begreen]

Welcome. Most rear exit stoves of a decent size start at about twice your budget. You may be better off with an insert. It may solve a lot of issues. Take a look at the Englander 13NCi. Also, have you allowed for the cost of installing a 6" stainless liner in the chimney?

 

[Stanford41d]

Welcome. Most rear exit stoves of a decent size start at about twice your budget. You may be better off with an insert. It may solve a lot of issues. Take a looks at the Englander 13NCi. Also, have you allowed for the cost of installing a 6" stainless liner in the chimney?

Thank you for your response. There is already what I perceive to be a stainless steel liner attached to the current wood burning insert. This liner is flexible and run up through the terracotta liner, based on my observations. I was hoping to attach a new wood stove to this liner. What are your thoughts on placing a small wood burning stove with conventional top vent, into the fireplace itself and and tying existing chimney liner directly to the stove? Thanks.

 

[begreen]

I'm not following the goal here. Why is the current insert being replaced? 28" high is not very tall. A small top vent stove will essentially be an insert without the shroud and legs. Only a few stoves allow this, like Bucks and the Avalon Rainier. Both are over budget.

 

[Stanford41d]

I'm not following the goal here. Why is the current insert being replaced? 28" high is not very tall. A small top vent stove will essentially be an insert without the shroud and legs. Only a few stoves allow this, like Bucks and the Avalon Rainier. Both are over budget.

I'm wanting to replace current insert because it is rather old and missing damper and the blower would barely operate last winter. I see your point about a stove in the fireplace would be tight and in many ways not any different than an insert. But, my thinking was that if I blocked off the lintel ledge pretty well around the liner, that most of the residual heat coming off of stove would transmit into the living quarters. The Englander 13-NCH at Home Depot is approximately 28.5" in height, so I thought it might fit inside of fireplace and I could slide the liner opening down over vent opening on the stove.
But ideally, I would rather have a stove out on the hearth or down on the floor in front of hearth and vent it back into the chimney. But, I don't know that I have enough height from where top of vent opening on stove would be, to turn an elbow and aim back up to the chimney to tie into liner --- if it is true, that there must be about a foot of vertical run on flue pipe before it can be turned horizontally.

 

[TheRambler]

It sounds like he is wanting to replace the insert due to it being older and having been kinda abused in the past by the previous owner. In any case, a $1,000 budget is a tight one. Your most cost effective option would probably be another insert. 2nd option, though more costly would be to extend the hearth out some so that you could place a freestanding rear vent stove in front of the fireplace and use a tee and a short section of stove pipe to connect into the liner. When it comes to rear vent freestanding stoves your options are limited, and i believe well over your budget.

 

[claydogg84]

For $1,000 you're pretty limited as Begreen mentioned. You could always have the existing liner inspected by a sweep of you're uncertain of its current condition. I have a freestanding stove in my current fireplace opening but it was about 3 times your budget. Size wise, trying to squeeze a top exiting free stander in there and then hook up your piping would simply put, be a pain in the arse. Check out some inserts, and if you don't like your options you may have to increase the budget.

 

[Grisu]

28" are not tall enough. A top-vented stove small enough to fit in the fireplace will be too small to serve as primary heater. A rear-vented stove will be out of budget. An insert will probably do the job and be within range. I second the suggestion for the 13NCI and take also a look at the Century 2500 and Drolet Escape 1800. Another good one would be the Heatilator WINS18 should you be able to spend a bit more.

Make sure to have dry, seasoned wood with an internal moisture content of less than 20% or neither stove nor insert will make you happy.

 

[becasunshine]

I can't speak to the insert installation but I can speak a bit to your home's construction.

Like you, we have a single story bungalow- the house in town- 1420 sq. ft., brick and block construction, which means that we have a brick exterior which is anchored, every three rows, into the block wall that lines it. We have lathe and plaster walls throughout most of the house (some drywall in a handful of places.) No wall insulation, and no practical way to add it.

We beefed up our attic insulation significantly. We added a radiant barrier to the attic walls and the underside of the roof. The radiant barrier has a thin layer of fiberglass insulation sandwiched in between two radiant coatings, with holes perforated throughout so that it will breath and not build up moisture. The manufacturer originally assigned some R value equivalent to this product but I don't think that's done anymore. It does help us in the summer (we don't have shade on the front of the roof) and I believe, based on our experience with it, that it helps in the winter as well.

A previous owner had put R19 batting insulation over the existing/original rock wool insulation. The R19 was in good shape so we left it and the underlying rock wool in place. My husband added R30 batting insulation over the R19 and the rock wool.

We also have insulation under the floor, in the crawl space.

All of this helped but we have a pellet stove in that house and we felt that the pellet stove should be carrying the house better. So our final step was to work on the interior envelope. We found thick area rugs on sale at Costco and added three area rugs to the three rooms in our house that we use the most (besides the kitchen.) We rent a cleaner, take the rugs out onto our concrete patio and clean them in March, on a windy day with very low humidity. We throw them over the back fence to dry, then roll them up and store them in the attic during the summer.

We added UL approved foam insulation inserts behind all of the switch plates and outlet covers in the house. This made an unbelievable difference in the amount of air flow into the house. We also made liberal use of caulk and spray foam. Be very careful of caulk and spray foam around electrical fixtures and outlet boxes- there are specific instructions for how to do it and how NOT to do it to prevent fire hazards.

The hardwood floors have been refinished, which caused a gap in between the baseboards and the floor through which cold air flowed in the winter like it was being pumped in. I can only imagine how much air conditioned air we lost out of those leaks as well. My husband caulked around the baseboards with clear caulk and that helped. Truth in advertising: DIRT LOVES CAULK. Once a year, I get down on my hands and knees and scrub the baseboards in my entire house. Not my favorite job but it works. We use that opportunity to spray for ants for the season as well so DONE AND DONE.

Following the instructions for use around electrical fixtures and outlet boxes, we sealed up all of the penetrations through the internal envelope that we could seal up.

The house is about 55 years old and has plenty of cracks and crevices left through which it can "breathe." That being said, we do make liberal use of the fan over the stove while cooking and of the bathroom exhaust fan while showering.

If your house is like ours, that block has mass and will act as a heat sink for solar gain, and as an ice box when it's overcast and cold. So sealing up your envelope can help maintain the internal temperature.

Here are a couple of links about sealing air leaks in your home that address the specifics:

http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/tips-sealing-air-leaks

http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/air-sealing-your-home

http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/detecting-air-leaks


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[begreen]

If the budget can be stretched and you are trying to heat the whole house I'm thinking a Buck 74 or the Avalon Rainier or Lopi 1750i. How large is the area where the current insert located? How much sq ftg are you trying to heat?

 

[Stanford41d]

Thanks everyone for your input. I suppose I'm between a rock and a hard place with my situation.
My total living space is approximately 1100 square feet, but with the exception of the two bedrooms, all the other rooms communicate pretty well with each other. I'm mainly trying to heat about 800 square feet, which is the common areas. I was hoping for something other than a fireplace insert for several reasons; one being that they don't heat very effectively during power outages, and with a stove I'd get more convection heating. I have seen a couple of smallish stoves like the Shetland Horse Flame Stove that is only 24" tall that would fit in the fireplace itself.
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...orse-Flame-Shetland-HF-905-Wood-Burning-Stove

I suppose another alternative would be to just seal up the fireplace front and install a wood stove on the floor on a hearth pad in front of the fireplace, and vent it straight up through the living space, through the attic and roof. My house has a very slight pitched roof so the distance from top of stove vent to roof would only be about 12 feet. I know I would have to extend well above roof line for safety reasons. But the cost of a Englander 13-NCH stove at Home Depot, $649, plus hearth pad and venting might be less than a new fireplace insert, and would probably be more effective?

 

[claydogg84]

Inserts are convection stoves, just made for this situation specifically. The space you're trying to heat is fairly small, and although I'm rarely for inserts, I think that is your best option here. You're concerned that the insert won't radiate enough heat when the power is out? I would guess it would be more than capable.

 

[claydogg84]

That Sherland is super small and I would think you would have nothing but coal buildup because of constant refilling with wood.

 

[becasunshine]

Like you, we are in a remote location with the wood stove and we needed a stove for power outages in the winter as well. Even though we have power at this moment, dinner is cooking on the wood stove as I type. And by dinner I mean dinner. We ain't roughing it. <:3~ Our kitchen stove runs on propane and I see no reason to use propane unless I absolutely have to use it. Propane is *still* expensive.

I am intrigued by the idea of walling off the fireplace and putting a free standing stove in. That could also leave you free to put the stove in the location that works best for you. And then you could cook on it too.

The slight pitch on your roof could work in your favor. Others who are more knowledgeable than me will chime in with code requirements, but the termination of your chimney has to be so many feet above your roof line and so many feet lateral distance from the roof as well. A roof with a slighter pitch is more forgiving in this situation- the chimney doesn't have to be extended so high to make those clearances.

If it were me, I'd explore the idea of walling off that fireplace a little further. That being said, almost everyone with whom we've talked has recommended double wall stove pipe for safety and for a better draw out of the wood stove, and you'll need a fabricated steel chimney to replace the masonry chimney. Neither the double wall stove pipe nor the chimney are cheap. The stove pipe, the chimney and the installation (plus mileage, we pulled a stove shop from the other side of the state because we specifically wanted a Blaze King) were more expensive in our case than the stove itself, IIRC. (Our homeowner's insurance required proof of professional installation, so DIY wasn't feasible for us.)

Others can also chime in on the feasibility of blocking off the fireplace but cutting into your existing chimney and using that as your chimney for a free standing stove. As far as I know, that just about guarantees a 90' bend in your stove pipe, and from what you've said about your house, the bend will be relatively close to the stove. That's not the best situation for creating draft. As I understand it, a straight run with as much of the stove pipe in the heated envelope of your house, with a double wall stove pipe, and a stainless steel chimney to code in the absence of an adequate masonry chimney, will get you the best performance out of any stove you choose.

Do you plan to stay in this house for some years? If so, you might want to push your budget and get your best solution first.

P.S. Just now realizing that you have a potential clearance issue to the ceiling. If so, then yes, what others have said about an insert may be your best solution.

 

[Stanford41d]

Thanks for your feedback. Y'all have been awesome. I've much to think about. I'm currently visiting a friend out of town. When I get home, I'm going to take the plunge and pull out the old fireplace insert. This way, I can fully assess my situation. The measurements I gave earlier were pretty close guess-emations I gathered by pulling back the shroud on my insert and taking measurements. Those of you who have been able to put a wood stove into the fireplace opening, how did you block off the chimney opening to prevent heat escaping up chimney around flue piping?

 

[Grisu]

An independent chimney for a stove can easily exceed your budget by itself. You will be way better off using the existing one.

What you need to make an insert as efficient as a stove is a block off plate and insulation around it. See those links:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/

If that is not enough during a power outage you can always pull the surround off and run it like a freestanding stove for that time. Won't look nice but who cares if you are cold and if it is just for a day or two. If you have a genny: Insert blowers run between 100 W and 200 W, they are not a major load.

 

[becasunshine]

An independent chimney for a stove can easily exceed your budget by itself.

Truth.

 

[Stanford41d]

Again, thank you for your feedback. Those links to the block off plate will be very helpful. This should be doable for me, I use to be a heating and a/c installation mechanic and I still have some sheet metal tools. I mull on your feedback overnight. I'm still considering a small stove set into the fireplace opening after watching video on youtube

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I think a small stove similar to this one might ? meet my heating needs, in conjunction with sufficiently blocking off the chimney with a good block off plate as referenced above. This would mean I could buy a stove for about $700 or less, and the cost of shield would be very minimal, and I could tie into existing chimney liner.
This a thought for the moment. I'm sure I'll explore many others, but this would be relatively inexpensive and would get me by in times when power is out, and would augment electric heating pretty well, I would imagine.

 

[begreen]

Thanks everyone for your input. I suppose I'm between a rock and a hard place with my situation.
My total living space is approximately 1100 square feet, but with the exception of the two bedrooms, all the other rooms communicate pretty well with each other. I'm mainly trying to heat about 800 square feet, which is the common areas. I was hoping for something other than a fireplace insert for several reasons; one being that they don't heat very effectively during power outages, and with a stove I'd get more convection heating. I have seen a couple of smallish stoves like the Shetland Horse Flame Stove that is only 24" tall that would fit in the fireplace itself.
http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...orse-Flame-Shetland-HF-905-Wood-Burning-Stove

I suppose another alternative would be to just seal up the fireplace front and install a wood stove on the floor on a hearth pad in front of the fireplace, and vent it straight up through the living space, through the attic and roof. My house has a very slight pitched roof so the distance from top of stove vent to roof would only be about 12 feet. I know I would have to extend well above roof line for safety reasons. But the cost of a Englander 13-NCH stove at Home Depot, $649, plus hearth pad and venting might be less than a new fireplace insert, and would probably be more effective?

How would you fit and connect the 13NCH? It's 28 1/4 high. You need the 13NCi insert which is 22" high. It projects out onto the hearth enough that it will still heat without the blower. Or, just leave off the surround for the same effect as a freestander, but without the fitting problems. The HorseFlame is a new stove line from China. We can't tell you how it will perform out of the box or over time. A tiny stove is going to need frequent reloading. The 13NCi's firebox is larger and it is made in the US with a known track record. You will get a 6-8 hr burn with it when burning good seasoned hardwood.

I would not compare the old insert experience to what the 13NCi is capable of. The Englander should burn hotter and more efficiently as long as the wood is well seasoned and the chimney is at least 15 ft tall.

 

[NJ_Burner08002]

I have a century 2500 and it easily heats 1000sq feet

 

[papa bears stove]

What size is the liner inside the chimney? Is the chimney all inside the house or is it along the outside of the house and exposed to the elements?

 

[Stanford41d]

Is The Century 25 AN Insert? ote="NJ_Burner08002, post: 1826539, member: 38283"]I have a century 2500 and it easily heats 1000sq feet[/quote]
the

 

[Grisu]

Yes but smaller firebox as the 13NCI. (broken link removed to http://www.century-heating.com/en/products/wood/wood-insert-model-cw2500)

 

[Stanford41d]

How would you fit and connect the 13NCH? It's 28 1/4 high. You need the 13NCi insert which is 22" high. It projects out onto the hearth enough that it will still heat without the blower. Or, just leave off the surround for the same effect as a freestander, but without the fitting problems. The HorseFlame is a new stove line from China. We can't tell you how it will perform out of the box or over time. A tiny stove is going to need frequent reloading. The 13NCi's firebox is larger and it is made in the US with a known track record. You will get a 6-8 hr burn with it when burning good seasoned hardwood.

I would not compare the old insert experience to what the 13NCi is capable of. The Englander should burn hotter and more efficiently as long as the wood is well seasoned and the chimney is at least 15 ft tall.

Thank you for your response. You have me thinking more about the inserts, though I have been enamored with the thought of a stove out in the room. Home Depot sells the 13NCI for $1099. Is that about as cheap as anyone else?
Now that I might have to settle for an insert, I'm wondering about finding a replacement damper for my current insert. I'm wondering if I could just partially disassemble it, clean it up good, fabricate and install a block off plate, etc. and see if I could get the old one to get me through this winter (?)
When you say the chimney must be at least 15 ft tall, is that from top of fireplace box opening to the tip top termination point above the roof? I would estimate that from the lintel of my fireplace to the cap on the roof, is probably close to 15 ft, maybe a shade less. If it were only say 13 or 14 ft, would that be a big deal?
Thanks.

 

[Stanford41d]

What size is the liner inside the chimney? Is the chimney all inside the house or is it along the outside of the house and exposed to the elements?

My chimney liner is six inch diameter. It does not appear to be insulated. It is flexible and I'm assuming to be stainless steel. My house is small rectangular shaped house made of cinder blocks and clad in vinyl siding. The chimney is also a rectangular cinder block shape on the outside wall. The chimney has a terracotta liner inside the cinder block and the metal liner is run inside the terracotta liner.