No smoke from kitchen queen cook stove

[Isaac Carlson]

I took this video when the wind changed today so I could see the steam from the chimney. The stovetop is ~700 and the flue temp is ~300.
We add a few splits every couple of hours as needed. Temps are -10F outside and about 75 inside. Burning oak, elm, and maple. Yeah, the dog uses the window to watch the deer and rabbits, lol. My wife was cooking on the stove.

I keep thinking of installing air tubes, but when I see this it makes me rethink it.

 

[SpaceBus]

I thought the kitchen queen already had secondary combustion?

 

[Isaac Carlson]

I thought the kitchen queen already had secondary combustion?

The new ones do, but the older ones didn't. Ours has holes at the top of the door to allow some air in behind the door flap and that may act like secondary air, but it doesn't have dedicated tubes.

 

[Nateums]

I recently saw that the new KQ looks like a totally different (modernized) beast. I wonder if it's any good, and if it's made by the same people.

I have often thought of lining the firebox in our 380 with more bricks. The thing puts out plenty of heat as is.

I've got the glass door too, but the thing gets dirty so fast I am thinking about digging out the solid door and giving it a whirl.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

I recently saw that the new KQ looks like a totally different (modernized) beast. I wonder if it's any good, and if it's made by the same people.

I have often thought of lining the firebox in our 380 with more bricks. The thing puts out plenty of heat as is.

I've got the glass door too, but the thing gets dirty so fast I am thinking about digging out the solid door and giving it a whirl.

yep, total design change. We have the solid doors but want windows. We like to see the fire. I think I'll take the stove out to the shop this summer and make some modifications. The doors are not quite what they seem, being made of screwed together sheet metal over a steel core. I would like a deeper ash pan and a few secondary tubes for when the stove is not running as hard. I have a couple of smaller stoves in the shop waiting for a refurb/modification, so I might just do them all at the same time.

 

[Nateums]

yep, total design change. We have the solid doors but want windows. We like to see the fire. I think I'll take the stove out to the shop this summer and make some modifications. The doors are not quite what they seem, being made of screwed together sheet metal over a steel core. I would like a deeper ash pan and a few secondary tubes for when the stove is not running as hard. I have a couple of smaller stoves in the shop waiting for a refurb/modification, so I might just do them all at the same time.

I'd like to see how that works out if you decide to make some modifications.

I find myself needing to wipe the glass down with ashes about once per week to keep the window pretty clean. I have been lazy for about a month now, and there's not too much fire to be seen.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

I called kitchen queen last year or the year before about adding secondaries and they said it couldn't work....and yet here they have secondaries in their stoves now.....makes me think they were throwing me off the scent to avoid possible competition? I dunno.

anyway, if I do it I will be sure to post it here. I might add another stove to the list too. A friend of mine has a wood furnace that could use some efficiency improvements, but that will most likely be done "in place" because I am not going to tear that thing apart and try to get it out of his basement. No sir. I will take my welder and grinder over there for that job.

 

[coaly]

I called kitchen queen last year or the year before about adding secondaries and they said it couldn't work....and yet here they have secondaries in their stoves now.....makes me think they were throwing me off the scent to avoid possible competition? I dunno.

anyway, if I do it I will be sure to post it here. I might add another stove to the list too. A friend of mine has a wood furnace that could use some efficiency improvements, but that will most likely be done "in place" because I am not going to tear that thing apart and try to get it out of his basement. No sir. I will take my welder and grinder over there for that job.

It sure can work, and I finally came up with a way to get secondary air into our stoves!

Preheated intake air is already there! It’s right between the firebox and oven in the narrow enclosed space between the two.

I’ve been trying to come up with a way to preheat the secondary air with black iron in the exhaust vent area, under the stove top, and over the oven top. This is the normal exhaust path used during operation with oven off. But the pipe across this area will reduce the cross sectional area of the exhaust flow, reducing vent square inch area.

Today I was looking across this exhaust outlet area by removing the cooktop lid over the oven. With stove burning, or a light in the firebox, you can see through the outlet opening into the firebox. You are looking over the flap (oven damper) that raises vertical to block exhaust flow, forcing circulation around oven to get to chimney vacuum. This turns the oven on, blocking the flow up exhaust when on. This exhaust area between oven top and stove top can’t be reduced by the secondary air preheating pipe, so that has stopped me from adding secondary air using this exhaust area for preheating.

Well, I’m ashamed to admit, I finally realized today, and I was always aware of the airspace between the firebox and oven wall that has a small hole cut through the back for an air escape vent to prevent pressurizing the closed airspace area between the firebox side plate and oven side plate. The small air vent prevents expanding air in this sealed area from building up air pressure when expanded air heats in the enclosed chamber. I’m sure it would make a clunk expanding and bowing like a thermo switch pops like a tin can when expanding, or worse. This airspace is already the preheated airspace needed for the preheated secondary air on these stoves!

Then I realized, the little square vent hole cut through the back is even the same size used for the Certified stoves secondary intake air inlet on the back or bottom of many of them!

A simple 1/2 inch pipe flange, bolted to the firebox oven side, one hole through the firebox side wall only, centered in the flange, goes directly into the very hot airspace already there between the firebox and oven. Right into a preheated air chamber, already vented to the atmosphere. This hole needs to be behind the firebox lid opening, so secondary tube goes across stove top behind lid, where it does not interfere with top loading. I will make two tubes connected to a Tee first, to get the exact mount height and hole location for the flange and intake hole. Into the flange use a nipple with Tee. Face one secondary tube forward toward stove front, under the side exhaust outlet. The other secondary tube straight out of Tee across rear, behind lid opening, and above rear bypass outlet. This puts the forward facing tube under the oven flap damper, using the oven damper flap when open flat, oven off, as a baffle above the burner tube.

Holes in tubes should be angled downward, away from side and exhaust outlet so the rolling flames are under and around the firebox lid.

This should not affect oven temperature much, cooling the firebox side of the oven, since that is the hot side food always needs to be rotated away from anyway. It always has natural circulation around the oven with exhaust flow even when off. It should make the oven temperature more even on both sides, reducing heat from the hottest side, that isn’t needed.

Looking at the open oven flap, through the open oven side lid that allows exhaust to pass over it in the normal operating position with oven off, you can see how this large flap becomes the baffle over the secondary tube.

I don’t know if Duane ever though of adding this simple secondary burner to older stoves, or if they are interested in making the stoves in the field more efficient, but it will burn the few smoke particles you do get, getting more heat from the stove than the wasted energy from the smoke lost up the stack.

I’ll certainly run this across him since it’s a simple solution to get preheated air into added on tubes!

 

[Nateums]

It sure can work, and I finally came up with a way to get secondary air into our stoves!































































Preheated intake air is already there! It’s right between the firebox and oven in the narrow enclosed space between the two.































































I’ve been trying to come up with a way to preheat the secondary air with black iron in the exhaust vent area, under the stove top, and over the oven top. This is the normal exhaust path used during operation with oven off. But the pipe across this area will reduce the cross sectional area of the exhaust flow, reducing vent square inch area.































































Today I was looking across this exhaust outlet area by removing the cooktop lid over the oven. With stove burning, or a light in the firebox, you can see through the outlet opening into the firebox. You are looking over the flap (oven damper) that raises vertical to block exhaust flow, forcing circulation around oven to get to chimney vacuum. This turns the oven on, blocking the flow up exhaust when on. This exhaust area between oven top and stove top can’t be reduced by the secondary air preheating pipe, so that has stopped me from adding secondary air using this exhaust area for preheating.































































Well, I’m ashamed to admit, I finally realized today, and I was always aware of the airspace between the firebox and oven wall that has a small hole cut through the back for an air escape vent to prevent pressurizing the closed airspace area between the firebox side plate and oven side plate. The small air vent prevents expanding air in this sealed area from building up air pressure when expanded air heats in the enclosed chamber. I’m sure it would make a clunk expanding and bowing like a thermo switch pops like a tin can when expanding, or worse. This airspace is already the preheated airspace needed for the preheated secondary air on these stoves!































































Then I realized, the little square vent hole cut through the back is even the same size used for the Certified stoves secondary intake air inlet on the back or bottom of many of them!































































A simple 1/2 inch pipe flange, bolted to the firebox oven side, one hole through the firebox side wall only, centered in the flange, goes directly into the very hot airspace already there between the firebox and oven. Right into a preheated air chamber, already vented to the atmosphere. This hole needs to be behind the firebox lid opening, so secondary tube goes across stove top behind lid, where it does not interfere with top loading. I will make two tubes connected to a Tee first, to get the exact mount height and hole location for the flange and intake hole. Into the flange use a nipple with Tee. Face one secondary tube forward toward stove front, under the side exhaust outlet. The other secondary tube straight out of Tee across rear, behind lid opening, and above rear bypass outlet. This puts the forward facing tube under the oven flap damper, using the oven damper flap when open flat, oven off, as a baffle above the burner tube.































































Holes in tubes should be angled downward, away from side and exhaust outlet so the rolling flames are under and around the firebox lid.































































This should not affect oven temperature much, cooling the firebox side of the oven, since that is the hot side food always needs to be rotated away from anyway. It always has natural circulation around the oven with exhaust flow even when off. It should make the oven temperature more even on both sides, reducing heat from the hottest side, that isn’t needed.































































Looking at the open oven flap, through the open oven side lid that allows exhaust to pass over it in the normal operating position with oven off, you can see how this large flap becomes the baffle over the secondary tube.































































I don’t know if Dwayne ever though of adding this simple secondary burner to older stoves, or if they are interested in making the stoves in the field more efficient, but it will burn the few smoke particles you do get, getting more heat from the stove than the wasted energy list from the smoke lost up the stack.































































I’ll certainly run this across him since it’s a simple solution to get preheated air into added on

Coaly that sounds really cool. If you do the mod and could post results and pics (worth a thousand words) it would be much appreciated.

If I'm understanding you, that hole in the back of the stove is just a pressure relief between two panels, one stove and one oven panel? You just plan to connect that area into the stove with secondary combustion tubes?

Have you tried adding more fire brick to the side walls of the stove? Something I have considered..

Hope this reply comes through ok, this site is acting very glitchy on my devices.

 

[Nateums]

Also a side note, I have kept my firebox glass clean all winter by starting the stove with ashbox door open and both door controls closed. Once I am up to temp the glass is clean, I close the ash door and just crack the top control.

I realize now the "air wash" on this stove doesn't work because the air is cold and actually soots the glass up rather than cleans it. Starting the stove with just the ash pan open actually causes hot air to wash the glass clean.

 

[coaly]

Yes, there is about 1 1/4 inch airspace between the firebox side and oven side plates. The square vent hole on mine was cut 3/4” wide X 1 inch high.



That is the open vent hole in center. The two square cover plates with bolts are the factory covers for adding the water heating coil, which is 3/4 stainless schedule 40 pipe I never installed. To the right is my add on thermostat that opens under fire air into ash pan. I scratch a few slots of grate open of ash for air, and let it plug up after starting. Thing lights up like a light bulb after loading in the morning, closing lid (I top load) and open T-stat. Less than 15 minutes chimney bypass and under fire air is closed, using factory intake through door.

If you drilled a series of small holes through that firebox side plate, atmospheric air pressure would push through this opening, through the air chamber and into firebox. I will use a hole saw, not sure of 1/2 or 3/4 flange and pipes yet, to carry the air placed strategically around the lid opening. Once a Tee is screwed to the flange, it is easy to change up the plumbing if necessary.

I’m already looking for a Pyrex baking dish large enough to set over the lid opening to watch secondaries light off and haven’t even made the tubes yet! I’m just doing this to lessen wood usage, and cleaning up the flue with less smoke is always good too.

I remove the lid over oven about monthly to scrape the fine brownish soot I get that settles on the oven top. No sign of water vapor condensing in the system, just dry sandy deposit I assume burning secondary across the top will prevent.

Mine is going, and the only heat source, so it will be when cooled enough to get measurements and do some boring. Won’t be the first time I’ve worked on one quite warm!

I have not added any firebrick like the new ones have added. Since it heats our house, and has side covers with convection holes, I figure the hot air convected off the sides is better used as built than increasing fire temperature. Plus it’s a little oversize for our 1848 sf home, so we only fill to the top of the first course, about a half firebox full.

 

[coaly]

Also a side note, I have kept my firebox glass clean all winter by starting the stove with ashbox door open and both door controls closed. Once I am up to temp the glass is clean, I close the ash door and just crack the top control.

I realize now the "air wash" on this stove doesn't work because the air is cold and actually soots the glass up rather than cleans it. Starting the stove with just the ash pan open actually causes hot air to wash the glass clean.

I don’t have glass, but the thermostat I added gives the ash pan area the under fire air needed to prevent slow starts. It kicks it up for the oven too. If we get busy, the door closes automatically closing the “starter air” I call it.

The last couple days around zero here prompted me to burn a lot of oak. So many coals built up, I had to scratch some slots in grate open and open the under fire air to burn them down. It really made the perfect stove for us.

I’ve said before, the only reason I would upgrade to the new Comfort is for the secondary air, and if I can make this work easily, far easier and cheaper than switching out stoves. This one also has the old stainless oven and I think they were built better. Just my opinion.

 

[coaly]

The air wash would probably work with cooler air. Does it have primary air as well? With primary open, the path of least resistance is through the larger primary air, so not much comes into air wash. Once up to temp, chimney draft increases and primary gets shut more, so atmospheric pressure pushes more into air wash. Opening anything into firebox decreases air wash. Can you run on air wash only once up to temp? The Fishers did.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

Coaly, I have been thinking the same thing with the secondaries, except I was thinking of running a pipe below the door as well, to preheat the air even more.

 

[BillBurns]

My stove has secondary tubes.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

My stove has secondary tubes.

What model?

 

[coaly]

Coaly, I have been thinking the same thing with the secondaries, except I was thinking of running a pipe below the door as well, to preheat the air even more.

I took temp readings all over with the IR. With a 430* lid, 480* top behind lid, and 400* center of top, I'm getting 420 in the cavity between firebox and oven. Entering the 1000* firebox, I don't know how far it has to travel to get to firebox temp. Using 3/4 I would think one pass over the 22" width firebox would be enough. I know when I get the pipe flange mounted, I'll try a length of drilled pipe directly connected to it and find out if the air is hot enough without heating any more in the box. Once into firebox, if it doesn't ignite easily I'll just have to make a loop partially around firebox top.

In the new 550 and 750, the tubular side channel ends are open under grate in the ash pan area. This must be mostly primary since it is controlled by thermostat air, admitted from low in the box to high, acting as a secondary mix coming in from the sides. Questions were raised about ash filling the vertical tubes, but the open tubes simply drop anything that gets in them into the ash pan.

I don't know where the secondary air comes from through the tubes at top. Possibly from the area I'll be using?? Pics look like a tube they are connected to across the back and front leading into that open area next to oven. I have yet to see a video of actual secondary combustion from the upper tubes in one, and firebox pictures show 3 tubes across the top with fiberboard baffle above them where the lid over firebox is??? I guess that prevents top loading, and what does it do to stove top cooking temps? Hopefully @BillBurns has one to fill us in, because I want real secondary combustion and I want the tubes around the lid opening to heat the top, not under an insulated baffle board (it's a cookstove after all. Can you cook above an insulated baffle removing the lid, for now indirect contact?) and not be in the way for loading.

I'd like to put a smaller 550 in my log cabin, but I'm not sold on their "double reburn system" without seeing one and knowing how it works. Reburn means you're taking the exhaust and running it back through the fire, or double burn is like the antique double base burner that scavenges some exhaust and recycles it through the intake. That's not happening here. I think it's Amish speak for secondary combustion. Like maybe there's a fire on the bottom, and it "reburns" on the top instead of saying they are igniting the smoke? Am I missing something? I think that's just their terminology for secondary combustion. They would say brenne zweemol, or burn twice. Or brenne der rauch, burn the smoke. Their words are from the unwritten language from the 1600's, so have to improvise for modern terminology.

 

[Isaac Carlson]

I designed and added secondary tubes/baffle in an older stove for a guy a few years ago. I used a similar design as commercial stoves. It burned VERY well and seemed to last forever on just a handful of wood. I can't do it the same in our 480 because of what you mention, blocking the top cover and the cook surface. I am tempted to use the "turbocharger" for the initial preheat (with the slots welded shut) and then run the air into the oven cavity and then under the cook surface. That would make use of the slider under the stove for air control and the hole in the back could be welded shut or covered with a slider control for more air. I would like a window in the door and will have to redesign the primary air intake to do that.

I don't understand the "why" behind the new "double reburn" design either. I have the firebox lined with firebrick under the door, along the left side, along the back, and on the right by the oven. It helps a lot. Having super dry wood also helps. This is the driest wood we have burned yet, and the stove and chimney are much cleaner. In the past I have had to clean the chimney several times over the winter, but it seems to be doing just fine with the 3 year dry wood. We are trying to stay at least 2-3 years ahead on wood, and might hit 5+ years if we can get enough done this year. We have burned about 5 cord so far this year. The house is 160+ years old and drafty as heck. We are hoping to take care of that this summer, so next year's heating results may be skewed, but we can still observe changes in the burn.

 

[Nateums]

Coaly, the air wash was a known issue when we bought the stove. The salesman even cautioned us before we purchased it that doesnt function properly. Not that big of a deal, especially with my starting method now, the glass is clean enough for some ambience and plenty to gauge the burn quality.

Once I run the stove up to temp I run it with 1/2 to 2/3 of air wash open and the bottom air control closed. We have a really good draft and straight shot through the roof (and cold winters to boot).

We have the 380, by the way. I built our house air tight and very insulated. We burn about 1.5 cord through the upstate ny winter. I really would love to know how little we'd burn with a stove like a blaze queen though. Finished building my workshop this year, and a woodstove is going in next summer.. so tempting..

 

[Isaac Carlson]

If I could burn only 1.5 cord a year, I'd have a lifetime supply! Our house leaks like a screen door.

 

[BillBurns]

Im feeling ya. My house was built in 1886, and after a decade of caulking this and stopping a leak here and there. She leaks like its made from swiss cheese. I can still keep it around 65 - 70 degrees despite all the leaks. Its a non stop battle but I love it!

 

[Isaac Carlson]

Sounds familiar. Ours was built in 1860 and added onto several times. Still has the log floor in the kitchen.

 

[coaly]

Coaly that sounds really cool. If you do the mod and could post results and pics (worth a thousand words) it would be much appreciated.

If I'm understanding you, that hole in the back of the stove is just a pressure relief between two panels, one stove and one oven panel? You just plan to connect that area into the stove with secondary combustion tubes?

Have you tried adding more fire brick to the side walls of the stove? Something I have considered..

Hope this reply comes through ok, this site is acting very glitchy on my devices.

Here is the stainless water coil that gave me the idea of altering the size and using for secondary burn tube. This was an accessory that came with my stove and never installed. I don’t use that much hot water to need a firebox circulation loop;



This would be too long across the firebox and not wide enough to span across the lid opening. So I made two 3/4 pipe lengths 16 inches long, threaded them and added a Tee with 2 inch nipple threaded into a 3/4 pipe flange. The over all length is 21 1/2 inches to span the 22 inch wide firebox for expansion and ease installing. This will mount on the oven side for preheated air from the cavity between the oven and firebox. Right about where it is below stove top.



The pipe I made to span the 10 inch lid opening is 12 inches. This will not affect top loading. I am 1 Tee short of the fittings I had laying around from my gas installation days, so I will pick one up, and I believe I will connect the Tees with a union to have secondary air admission all the way around the lid opening. I don’t know if it will require baffles like an upside down V trough over pipes. I only want to admit some oxygen above the fire to clean up what it will, not making a secondary burn stove out of it since heat to the stove top and through open eyes is priority, not keeping heat below baffles.

If anyone wonders, these fireboxes from grate to top is 23 inches high. 22 wide, and 21 deep. That totals 6.149 cubic feet. I have only filled it about half, to use 3 cubic feet of it.