Not completely lost, but need some guidance

[bcarton]

Hi Everybody! I'm a recent lurker, learner, and re-convert to wood heat.

After many years of neglect my stoves, rising electricity prices are forcing me to go back to using wood heat. Yes, I've been heating with electric heat since moving into this 1970's-era closed floor plan, 2100 sq foot colonial. We heated our tiny old house with wood and coal, but this big beast needs a lot of heat.

It is not financially feasible for me to upgrade my old 1970's era stoves before winter. There's a huge,scary stove in the cellar which I'm sure can throw a ton of heat, but since the cellar is finished and fully insulated, including the ceiling, it's useless for heating the main house. Past experience has proven that heat does not escape the basement. We also have a typical useless fireplace in our large living room, which serves mainly to suck heat out of the house.

That leaves an aged but solid stove in our "family room" - which is basically a "breezeway" room between the garage and the main house. There's only a 34" wide doorway between it and the rest of the house. We tried in the past to use that stove, with the result that the family room would be about 90d F and the rest of the house stone cold.

That's all the bad news. The good news is the old stove is in decent shape, although it is strictly bygone technology. I had the chimney inspected, and it should be good for this year. I replaced all gaskets and put a new grate in, and best of all discovered that the stove had the ability to support a blower, which I purchased and installed.

I got to test drive the upgraded system this weekend. Both Saturday and Sunday nights got down to the mid-low 30s. Thanks to that 240CFM blower, more heat than I ever thought possible makes it out of the family room and into the rest of the house. That's good news.

I'm definitely going for the bricks this year. I have no source for good, dry wood this late in the game. I'm getting quotes of $350/cord for "semi-seasoned" wood. Electric rates will jump a whopping 47% on November 1, and there is competition here in southern NH for alternate fuel. I've purchased some bricks locally, and tried them out this last weekend on 2 nights when it got down to the low 30's. The whole first floor stayed a cozy high 69-71d.

It looks like there's a reliable source of bricks, albeit overpriced, nearby. I'll be paying $330-$350/ton without delivery. Still, from my crude calculations it looks like I will save close to 50% on heating costs by burning bricks.

My plan is to get through the winter, then either install a good fireplace insert in the living room (main house) or upgrade the stove in the family room. I'll definitely have the cash to do that in the spring. I have lots of research to do between now and then, but the main trade-offs are much higher cost for the insert, but much better location for a wood heat source. I have no idea yet whether I'll pursue pellet or wood heat, but I'm leaning toward wood/bricks over pellets.

So please, punch holes in my plan, offer suggestions and insights, and tell me how little I know or what I'm overlooking. I'm urgently looking for basic guidance on getting the most from an old "airtight" stove, and safe/effective use of what I have to work with this winter. I've found some good reading, but I'm basically a near-total newb who forgot everything he ever knew about burning wood for heat.

Sorry for the classic wall-of-text. I'm a terrible writer.

Thanks!

Brian

 

[Charles1981]

Are these chimney's with stoves attached lined with stainless steel liners? That would be the big thing I would want as far as creosote and safety concerns go.

Everything else aside. You have fuel. You have stove. And it is going to save you money. Until you can upgrade you deal with what you got.

And then get 2-3 average plastic box fans and use them to experiment with airflow in the house to get that heat moving around.

 

[begreen]

To balance out the heat try this trick. Do you have a table fan? For more even heat in the house put a table or box fan in a cooler room within sight of the stove room, placed on the floor, pointing toward the family room. Run it on low speed. It will blow the cooler air down low, toward the woodstove. The denser cool air will be replaced with lighter warm air from the stove room. Running this way you should notice at least a 5F increase in the room temp after about 30 minutes running. And the stove room temp should drop by a corresponding 5+ degrees.

 

[BrotherBart]

Welcome.

A couple of shots of the stoves and chimneys would give us something to work with in the advise department.

 

[Grisu]

If you have the cash to buy bricks at $340 a ton then I suggest going to HomeDepot to buy an Englander 30NC for $900 and install it in place of your old stove. The NC30 has an efficiency of about 70% while your current stove has maybe 40%. Thus, you will make up the $900 pretty much this winter in bricks saved. The 30NC is a good stove so you could really take your time then in getting something nicer looking a few years down the road. Just make sure your hearth has an r-value of 1.5.

 

[begreen]

Welcome.

A couple of shots of the stoves and chimneys would give us something to work with in the advise department.

Agreed. I'd like to know and see what old stove is currently being used along with a rough sketch of the floor plan with some room sizes before recommending changes. In the meantime the fan trick will help even out the heat.

 

[cookin2night]

If you have the cash to buy bricks at $340 a ton then I suggest going to HomeDepot to buy an Englander 30NC for $900 and install it in place of your old stove. The NC30 has an efficiency of about 70% while your current stove has maybe 40%. Thus, you will make up the $900 pretty much this winter in bricks saved. The 30NC is a good stove so you could really take your time then in getting something nicer looking a few years down the road. Just make sure your hearth has an r-value of 1.5.

I agree. If you can swing it this year buy an insert for your fireplace. I don't know what your current electricity price is but judging on what you have said you will probably recoup the money in half a season. Good luck.

 

[bcarton]

Are these chimney's with stoves attached lined with stainless steel liners? That would be the big thing I would want as far as creosote and safety concerns go.

Everything else aside. You have fuel. You have stove. And it is going to save you money. Until you can upgrade you deal with what you got.

And then get 2-3 average plastic box fans and use them to experiment with airflow in the house to get that heat moving around.

They are not, and that is my highest priority for an upgrade. The chimney sweep who inspected the chimney said the tiles are a little swollen from absorbing moisture, mainly because I haven't used the stoves in 10 years. So he suggested starting out slowly, not burning too hot initially to dry out he tiles, and he'll come back and take another look. He does think I'll get another year or two out of them before a steel liner is necessary. The family room chimney is small, and the old tiles will have to come out to make clearance for the new liner, if I want to burn wood instead of pellets. A pellet chimney will fit.

 

[bcarton]

Agreed. I'd like to know and see what old stove is currently being used along with a rough sketch of the floor plan with some room sizes before recommending changes. In the meantime the fan trick will help even out the heat.

I'll try to get a floor plan and photos uploaded later. For now, the stove is an old Salvo Machinery Citation - not the coal burning model, and no catalytic converter.

 

[bcarton]

I agree. If you can swing it this year buy an insert for your fireplace. I don't know what your current electricity price is but judging on what you have said you will probably recoup the money in half a season. Good luck.

My highest monthly electric bill last year was $690, my lowest bill of the year was $190 - so in the coldest part of the year it cost $500 to heat the house. The approved increase applies only to the electricity, not the transmission costs etc., so the net increase is about 23% over last year. With a new chimney liner, the insert will be around $4300 installed, so it'll be more than one year to recover the cost.

 

[cookin2night]

My highest monthly electric bill last year was $690, my lowest bill of the year was $190 - so in the coldest part of the year it cost $500 to heat the house. The approved increase applies only to the electricity, not the transmission costs etc., so the net increase is about 23% over last year. With a new chimney liner, the insert will be around $4300 installed, so it'll be more than one year to recover the cost.

That's true but it depends on what insert you get and if you install it yourself. I spent a little over $1800 for the insert, liner, and insulation. I installed it myself. I fully expect to make that savings in the reduction of my propane consumption within the first season based on the previous homeowners consumption averages( I just purchased this house and the previous owners were spending north of $4500 a year in propane). So far I have only used the propane for my hot water heater and my range in the kitchen. Another thing to take into account is the winter season itself. A very harsh winter will give you more return on investment then a mild one. Regardless of the time, if you could swing it you should, it's an investment where you really can't lose.

 

[Woody Stover]

With a new chimney liner, the insert will be around $4300 installed, so it'll be more than one year to recover the cost.

I would consider what Grisu suggested, a value stove, and go ahead and install the liner for better stove performance. A modern re-burn stove may not work well with your present flue system and you will need the liner sooner or later, the way it sounds. What is the ID of the chimney tile, and how tall is it? If you've got the fireplaces, use 'em. A liner will make it easy to clean yourself, saving you money on a sweep. Then the family room stove can be a backup heat source when the power goes out and your insert fan doesn't run. As you saw, the stove blower enhances the convection loop of warm air out of the stove room, but blowing cool air back to the stove with a fan on the floor will really get the loop going.

 

[bcarton]

I would consider what Grisu suggested, a value stove, and go ahead and install the liner for better stove performance. A modern re-burn stove may not work well with your present flue system and you will need the liner sooner or later, the way it sounds. What is the ID of the chimney tile, and how tall is it? If you've got the fireplaces, use 'em. A liner will make it easy to clean yourself, saving you money on a sweep. Then the family room stove can be a backup heat source when the power goes out and your insert fan doesn't run. As you saw, the stove blower enhances the convection loop of warm air out of the stove room, but blowing cool air back to the stove with a fan on the floor will really get the loop going.

I spent 20 minutes on the phone this morning with the guy who did the chimney inspection. He'll be here on Saturday to do a more thorough video inspection of the flue, and to give me an exact quote on a liner installation. The existing flue is small, inside dimension less than 7 inches. It's most likely that the tile will have to be removed to do a proper installation.That's not a job I'm willing to do myself.

 

[bholler]

Yeah if the tiles need to come out it is not really a diy job. And with a less than 7" clay liner there is no way to get an insulated liner in there with them in.

 

[Byrond]

I spent 20 minutes on the phone this morning with the guy who did the chimney inspection. He'll be here on Saturday to do a more thorough video inspection of the flue, and to give me an exact quote on a liner installation. The existing flue is small, inside dimension less than 7 inches. It's most likely that the tile will have to be removed to do a proper installation.That's not a job I'm willing to do myself.

Another option would be to move the cellar stove up stairs if it will fit

 

[bcarton]

Well here's the floorplan, in case anyone has any feedback.

• The red stars represent the FR wood stove and LR fireplace
• The up arrow is the staircase going upstairs
• Solid lines between two rooms represent the presence of a transom over the doorway

There are no transoms between the LR, hallways, and kitchen. Once heat makes it out of the FR it travels pretty well.

I don't know if this information helps, but during the summer months I manage to cool the whole house pretty well with 2 window A/C units, one at the top of the stairs on the 2nd floor, and one in the Dining Room. They are 12,000 btu units.

Chimney pro is coming today, I'm anxious to heat what he says after the video inspection. Regardless, I want to get a firm quote for the chimney.

I'll try to post photos of the stove later today, tomorrow at the latest.

Thanks everybody!

 

[Grisu]

Hard to make out where your door openings are but a small fan placed on the floor at the end of the kitchen blowing cold air in a straight line towards the stove in the family room should get the heat pretty easily out of there. When it travels well after that you are probably ok then.

 

[bcarton]

The kitchen, living room and hallways are one continuous ceiling. the stairway is open. The bathroom has a standard interior door. The entry into the dining room is 4 feet wide, centered, but does not extend all the way to the ceiling, it's about 1 foot lower than the ceiling.

With the little burning I've done so far, heat makes it around the first floor better than I expected. However, it seems to get locked from getting upstairs very well. There's a pretty solid barrier that forms in the stairs, where the cold air just doesn't seem to want to sink down the stairs. I would love to find a good location to put a cold air return upstairs.

 

[Grisu]

Try a small fan at the top of the stairs angled downward blowing cold air down. That should create a convective loop where warm air gets pulled up to the second floor.

 

[begreen]

The living room fireplace looks like the best location for a stove or insert. Burn fires in the family room on nights and weekends as desired for supplemental heat. Circulation can be improved by installing a quiet blower that takes advantage of the wall stud cavity as a duct. Place it in the wall between the Living and Dining rooms, near the fireplace end. Blow dining room air into the LR to create a nice convection loop.
http://www.tjernlund.com/newproducts.htm#AireShare%99_Room-to-Room_Ventilators
http://www.tjernlund.com/through-the-wall-fan-articles.htm

There are some decent ~2 cu ft inserts for around $1000 that would work there.

 

[bcarton]

Thanks for the suggestions, everybody. And hey, those fans from Tjernlnd look pretty neat!

 

[Dix]

That floor plan doesn't look bad, even with transoms (leave 'em open, BTW )

If you are looking at bricks and / or fire wood this year, I would also get fire wood NOW for the following winter.

Initially more of an outlay, but in the end, a huge savings.

Welcome to the forums !

 

[bcarton]

Well, the video inspection of the chimney revealed a chimney in worse shape than I'd hoped - plenty of glazing on the tiles, and what look like at least 2 cracked tiles. Unfortunately, it's no DIY job as the tiles are too narrow to install a chimney without removing the old tiles. It looks like the best deal is to install a 6" liner, which will also force me to install a new stove, since the old stove has a 7" pipe, which the former owner stepped down to fit to a 6" fitting. What a mess.

No matter what, that chimney needs a new liner, or the right thing to do is abandon the stove. My ultimate goal is to have a stove in the family room, and an insert in the living room. It's cheaper to do the chimney in the living room, but when I go for the fireplace insert I'm going to be looking for best quality, so that's not going to happen until next year.

In the meantime - a couple of you mentioned getting a budget stove, or moving the stove downstairs into the family room. Either option would work - the stove in the cellar is a 6" stove, it's on "Old Mill." Great looking stove, but still older tech. I'd have to have to hire someone to hoist it upstairs; there's no way I could even assist on that effort. I'm not young, and I have a bad shoulder which is fine as long as I don't aggravate it.

So as far as new, EPA-rated stoves, what's the "best of the cheap" if I may ask. I looked at the Englander 30-NC, but I'm also considering it's little sister, the 17-NC. I'm thinking use it to augment the electric heat this year, and go for a Harman pellet insert in the living room come spring.


Any thoughts?

Thanks again, this forum has already saved me from making expensive mistakes!

 

[bholler]

Well you can fit an insulated 7" liner in if you break out the tiles usually a new stove would definitely work better though but id get the 6" insulated put in and see how it works with the existing stove it might be fine till you can get a new stove

 

[BrotherBart]

Having one really bad and another just basically bad shoulder, a guy with a torch down there cutting that Old Mill into pieces sounds like a fun $100 afternoon. Unless there are flammables close or under it.

Scrap weight should bring $60 or so. Them suckers are heavy.