Ok to have an insert stick out an extra inch?

[noise]

I'm trying to find an insert that will fit into my very shallow masonry fireplace (1897 Victorian house) and having a lot of trouble with meeting the depth requirements. I thought for sure the Lopi Answer or Regency I1100 would fit, but I come up about 3/4 - 1" short at the top. My overall opening dimensions are 30x30" with 15" depth at the bottom. However, at the 20 - 20 3/4" height of those two units the depth is 13 1/2", and the width at the back of my fireplace drops to 22 1/2" and so to get the full 23 5/8" width they need I'd have to slide forward a bit (roughly 1") and then have only 12 1/2" depth, out of the necessary 13 1/4 - 13 1/2".

So my question is would it be ok to just have it sticking out an extra inch, assuming I meet the hearth clearances? The Lopi in particular already sticks out 3" onto the hearth, so I don't see that another 1" would hurt, but is there some issue then with surround panels?

Any other suggestions for me on units that would fit? I've been searching all over but having a tough time finding a good match.

Thanks for any help - this forum has already helped me learn way more than I thought I'd ever need to know about wood burning goodness!

 

[begreen]

Welcome noise. Have you looked at the Jotul Kennebec line? The have adjustable depth that may solve your problem.

What size is the room and what size is the house?

(broken link removed to http://www.jotul.us/content/products/ProductArticle____8504.aspx)

 

[noise]

I was just looking at the C450 Kennebec last night, but the 25 1/2" width is too much to squeeze in the back at the minimum 12 3/4" depth it needs, which is a shame because that's a nice looking (and good sized) unit

The house is > 3200 sqft (3 floors), but we are only trying to provide some supplemental heat to cut back at least a little on our ridiculous amounts of oil usage (steam radiators, old boiler), as well as have a heating option for power outages (we got stuck w/o overnight on a pretty cold night this past winter). The living room is roughly 15x12, but wide open on each side to roughly equal size parlor and dining rooms. I think we'd be happy with one of the small inserts as long as we can make it fit.

 

[begreen]

Did you look at the C350 also? The Answer is a small unit. I'd consider putting a free-standing stove in the fireplace first.

 

[jqgs214]

My thoughts exactly BG, with that much open space I cant see a freestander getting in the way and that way you'll have a stove cabaple of heating that amount of space and many more optoins apperance wise.

 

[webbie]

I have installed certain inserts in this method - an extra inch or more out - as long as there is a tight fitting sheet metal block off, and the pipe from the unit can go up through the damper - then the surround panels are purely decorative. In fact, we have added small angle returns to panels in some cases - or even mounted panels further back on the stove......

 

[noise]

The C350 would mostly fit, but need to be sticking out roughly 3" onto the hearth (16" vs. my 13 1/2" depth at the height of the unit). So it would have the equivalent problem of the Answer. Also, it claims to require a 32" front-width, despite the unit only being 27 3/4 wide, and I only have 30".

In the case of not putting an insert or freestanding unit all the way back in the fireplace, would I be subject to greater clearances for the surround and mantle height? The mantle I can certainly move/change/protect, but I have only about 8" of surrounding brick from the 30x30 rough opening. I also don't have a lot of room to work with for the hearth in front - currently it's 16" and I will likely extend that to 20", but anymore and I'd really be getting into the walkway through the room.

Maybe I'm making this too complicated - but I want to make sure I'll be meeting the safety requirements.

Thanks again!

 

[noise]

Craig - Thanks, that's the info I was looking for and I guess could work for any model that will "mostly" fit. That certainly expands my options a bit. I believe there will definitely be a block-off plate with the full SS liner (to be installed) going straight to the stove.

 

[wg_bent]

Look at the Lopi Revere... similar to the Answer, but deeper from the surround panel out, but I believe that has some level of adjustability also

 

[webbie]

If you use a "return" from the panels so that they still hit the front of the fireplace, then the regular mantle clearances should work out. That said, if you are really close as far as top mantel clearances, you probably don't want to pull 3" out (1" would be better)...of course, it depends on the design of the unit, etc. - if the unit has a double wall top in that area it will not be a big deal.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

will this fit????? http://www.englanderstoves.com/13-nci.html unless i misread your post (possible) i think it will

 

[noise]

That Englander, like many others would fit it it were not for the forward angle of the back of the fireplace as it rises up. My 15" depth quickly drops to 12" by about 21" off the floor.

I'm going to go back to my local dealer tomorrow and see what their installers are willing to do for me in terms of making a "close fit" fit.

 

[BrotherBart]

We need a couple of pictures of the fireplace. This might be a great place for a small hearth stove vented up the chimney.

 

[noise]

Here's a closeup w/the dimensions. Pardon the mess, I pulled the mantle and some "they came from the 80s" white tiles off the brick and am in the process of stripping the mastic and paint that was under that!

 

[noise]

For perspective, a wider view w/hearth, 16" currently, but needs to be rebuild anyway so I will deepen to 20-21".

And also a view to the side showing the walkway to the left that heads to the parlor... not a lot of room to really do a large hearth stove without intruding on the path.

 

[elkimmeg]

Not to bust your bubble, but to install any insert into a fireplace it has to be installed into a NFPA211 compliant fireplace. From the pictures you provided, this fire box isn't even close to being compliant. Cmmon bricks do not qualify missing or old motar does not qualify. tTere is no way I would issue a permit, or approve any insert in that fireplace.

also consider 18" hearth protection is now required in front of loading doors. your mantel also calls in clearance to conbustiable issues to boot

 

[begreen]

To help you visualize, this is roughly what a Castine would look like in the fireplace. As you know, the hearth will need extending, but putting a stove in gives you a lot more options and potentially better heat.

 

[noise]

Woah - really? I'm definitely a newbie to this whole arena, so I'm not familiar with all the requirements but trying to learn and want it to be safe. The 18" hearth I had just read about and thus planning to extend, and with the small inserts I think I'm able to meet the mantle clearances.

I think the mortar is in decent shape, but what do mean that "common bricks" don't qualify? Any resources that boil down the NFPA211 or do I need to buy the book or hire a pro? I'm happy to pay for some expertise but who am I looking for, a chimney specialist, the installers from the stove shop, ?? Any advice on what my options are would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[begreen]

I think Elk is making assumptions based on the photograph that the fireplace interior is common brick and not firebrick. Though I can't see why this would matter as much with an insert in there. As to the mantle... what mantle?

 

[noise]

There _will_ be a mantle, I had removed it so I could more easily deal w/removing the old tile adhesive and re-doing the hearth

Not sure if the same one is going back or not - will depend on what I figure out I can put in there and then calculate clearances... and here I thought this might be as simple as going to the stove shop and saying "yeah, that one looks good", I should have known...

 

[Gooserider]

I'm not the code guru that Elk is, but essentially in order to install an insert, the fireplace basically has to be safe according to modern standards (NFPA 211, etc.) If you have a fireplace that was built in 1897, it likely wouldn't meet modern standards even when new, let alone after 110 years of aging... Your chimney needs to be in good shape, though most problems there will be addressed by doing a full SS liner, WITH INSULATION. However the firebox itself also needs to be up to snuff, meaning no missing bricks or mortar, no major cracks, and made from firebrick, not common red clay brick... Photos can be decieving, but the shots you posted looked kind of rough, which is probably what got Elk upset. Part of the reason for this is an insert is basically a normal wood stove in a box, with no legs, etc. It is depending on the existing fireplace to provide the needed thermal protection and clearance to combustibles. If the existing box isn't up to snuff, then it can't be trusted to do this.

OTOH, if you put a rear exit standard stove in front of the firebox, and connected it with a "T" fitting to a liner coming down the chimney, then all you have to worry about is meeting the clearance requirements for the stove. Most of the hearth can be extended by cutting out that floor and filling back in with non-combustibles, staying flush so it won't be a big traffic hazard. (See the hearth construction article in the Wiki for more details)

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

Let me crarify a few points yes common bricks can be used in a fire box providing there is 12" of solid masonry support behind it

Common fire brick is heat fired to withstand heat where common fire brick may not also fire brick is set in refractory motar bby setting them on the sides one eliminates 2" of the solid concrete mass behind them so it becomes a cost saving as well..

An insert can only be installed ina safe fireplace according th NFPA standards. As an inspector, and knowing the age, I would require a full fireplace chimney and flue condition report from
a licenced mason or chimneysweep. the time is now to figure out safety. Hoping it may be safe is not a consideration. After I have that full evaluation report in my hands then I can make a sound value judgement. It might be that to comply, an insulated liner is required.. No one here can say for sure, viewing a few pictures, but the age factor does kick in questions ,
that have to be answered.

 

[noise]

Elk and others, thanks for the clarifications. I did have a licensed chimneysweep come and eval for a full SS liner a couple months ago, and he was the one who first suggested that I look into inserts, though he didn't do a thorough inspection at the time. Sounds like doing that is my next step, and/or looking at putting a stove out front.

 

[webbie]

In terms of the fireplace construction, keep in mind that most inserts AND stoves put in front of the fireplace put VASTLY less strain and heat on the actual masonry of the firebox, so although it is important for ANY fireplace to be in decent condition, the stove or insert will make the existing setup MUCH safer. In fact, I would say that it is virtually impossible for heat radiation from a double wall insert or even a single wall stove to soak through typical fireplace walls with any negative effect....common sense tells us that an open fire in a masonry fireplace is MANY times hotter than a contained fire.

Another point is that some fireplaces built long ago are often built better than those from 1950-2000, because they were actually used! Of course, time can wear them down, but at least the "art" of building fireplaces was in full swing when yours was constructed.

You do want to be concerned about the mantel, front hearth clearances and also any wood that might be embedded in the masonry close by (usually in the front above the fireplace or close to the sides)....in that regard, a double wall insert gives an extra margin of safety.

 

[lepp]

If you can get the fireplace to be code compliant as per Elk's email, here's another insert for you to consider. Regency has just launched the I1200 insert. It's a new version of the I1100. Same inside firebox dimensions but it's been redesigned to use a new flue adaptor that reduces the minumum required height.

Mininmum fireplace opening dimensions for I1200:
width: 23"
depth: 13-3/4"
height: 19"

Check with the Regency dealer again and if he doesn't have the information yet, his sales rep will.