Opinions on MeSYS' AutoPellet System

[dlimanov]

Curious if anyone has pulled the trigger and installed one of these bad boys, especially with vacuum delivery mechanism in place. I'm still torn between HS Tarm Excel 2000 and more budget-friendly option yet to be discovered.

 

[trehugr]

I live in the Bethel area. (home of MESYS) I've seen the owners of MESYS get involved in several different endeavors through the years. IMHO, its anyones guess if their in this for the long-run. If it were me, I would choose a company that is well established in the industry and will offer some long term support.

 

[dlimanov]

Hi trehugr, thank you for responding. By different endeavors, did you mean other lines of businesses altogether, or just different directions in the heating/alternative energy field? I would definitely not want to go forward with a company that may be gone in few years or drop the product shortly down the road.
Thanks!

 

[sinnian]

dlimanov check the link on my signature for the Traeger/Pinnacle. I believe if you check the new codes in Mass you will need a certified boiler which the MeSYS is not, nor do I believe the Tarm either. The Traeger/Pinnacle is.

Autofeed system sounds nice, but no matter what anyone tells you, you have to clean out the burn pot daily anyway, so throwing a bag or two of pellets into the hopper is no big deal. PLUS make sure the/any autofeed system is UL listed or else if you ever have a fire your insurance may not cover you.

Finally, whatever you decide, DO NOT uninstall your current boiler. Leave it in as back-up, something your insurance will also want.

Good Luck, and seriously give Mark at Evergreen a call, he would be your dealer for Mass. Tell him Jeff sent you

 

[dlimanov]

dlimanov check the link on my signature for the Traeger/Pinnacle. I believe if you check the new codes in Mass you will need a certified boiler which the MeSYS is not, nor do I believe the Tarm either. The Traeger/Pinnacle is.

Autofeed system sounds nice, but no matter what anyone tells you, you have to clean out the burn pot daily anyway, so throwing a bag or two of pellets into the hopper is no big deal. PLUS make sure the/any autofeed system is UL listed or else if you ever have a fire your insurance may not cover you.

Finally, whatever you decide, DO NOT uninstall your current boiler. Leave it in as back-up, something your insurance will also want.

Good Luck, and seriously give Mark at Evergreen a call, he would be your dealer for Mass. Tell him Jeff sent you

sinnian, thanks for your reply. Are you 100% sure Tarm isn't certified? Last year I talked to them, it was and this was exactly the reason why I looked at them in the first place. Didn't know MeSYS units weren't, that pretty much ends the deal with them then.
My problem is that my oil boiler (I'm told) has a year or two of life left; so I'd need to get something either fully independent that runs on wood/pellets/coal or multi-fuel burner like Tarm Excel. The problem with the later choice is (obviously) the price: Tarm Excel was roughly quoted last year at close to $30K installed, along with hot water tank storage.
So my search continues..

 

[Sting]

Yes he is!

 

[sinnian]

I cringe to think who told you that your boiler has a year or two left ??? someone who sells them?

Anyway, the oil boiler is just there for back up, so you won't be using IT unless you run out of pellets, or want to go away for an extended period of time. I added an electric hot water heater as well so I could just shut down everything in the shoulder week, errrrrrrrr I mean season. Basically during the heating season the tank acts as a storage tank ~ my electricity did not go up during the heating season, and in the shoulder season went up a bit, but nothing close to the cost of burning oil all summer for domestic hot water.

I spent about 12k when it was all said and done (Traeger, hot water tank, installation). You may be a bit more due to labor costs in Mass.

I know MeSYS is working on getting a certified unit. I believe they are now trying to go directly to Traeger/Pinnacle for the boiler part and/or may end up going elsewhere (ie. oil boiler, minus the oil part and insert the Janfire). The MeSYS is sure "pretty", but truthfully all those ELECTRONIC controls are not needed, and WILL cost you more now and in the future. The Traeger is simple, and has the longest proven record ~ just ask Sting. I believe the flue requirements on the MeSYS are pretty high to and will require you to take out your existing boiler too.

All I know is that you DON'T want to remove your existing system. You can have the pellet boiler installed so that if it is off or out of pellets the oil boiler takes over automatically, install a relay and the oil boiler will never turn on if the pellet boiler is circulating its hot water. It is really a no-brainer and the piece of mind of being able to go away is priceless.

Give Mark a call, won't cost you a dime except the toll call.

~Jeff

 

[dlimanov]

Hi Jeff,
Thanks for your reply. The boiler (I believe) is as old as the house, which was built in 1978. Not sure if it's too short or long lifespan of a unit, but it has been maintained annually by previous owner and myself with the same people that put it in place. They are the once said that it was time to look for a new one, I haven't gotten a second opinion yet, but it's something I intend to do.
I will call Mark and talk to him about PB150 unit he's selling. If you don't mind my asking (or simply point me to a thread if this has been discussed already), how was your experience with owning and operating a pellet boiler? I am interested in your daily routine and level of interaction/servicing it requires. I travel frequently, so I'd need to make sure this is something my wife would be able to do it.
Thanks again,

Dimitri

 

[Sting]

here is a page all about the PB150

http://forum.iburncorn.com/viewforum.php?f=17

http://forum.iburncorn.com/wiki/index.php/Traeger

videos

http://www.iburncorn.com/content/view/30/35/

 

[sinnian]

Dimitri,

Sting is the expert on the PB150, and iburncorn is a great resource.

First off I have been very anal about my PB150, so I will tell you what I think would be the minimum of work involved.

1. Buy a good quality pellet. I know there were some issues last year with the PB150 and the Maine Woods Pellets, which were crap (too much ash). I had my own issues last year with the pellets I bought, but again it was in no way the fault of the unit, and Mark and Traeger/Pinnacle went well beyond great customer service to help me. Anyway, I would highly recommend a softwood pellet which typically has more heat and less ash.

2. Scoop out the burn pot of ash once per day or every other ~ maximum of a 3 minute job. I did it everyday, just because I was down there checking and/or adding pellets anyway. The cleaner the unit, the more efficient it will be, just like anything else.

3. Once per week empty the ash pan ~ 5 minutes job

4. At least once per month shut down the unit and clean the heat exchanger (with a brush Mark will give you) and the fan blades (with a large artists paint brush). I also scrape down the "baffles" (don't remember what they are called) that are in the heat exchangers. (I go way beyond this and vacuum everything out with a shop vac with a hose vented outside) ~ depending how anal you are this could take 1/2 hour to 1 hour or more.

It is an extremely simple machine for what it does. Mark has been great to work with!

That is an honest assessment. I know little about the Tarm and its operation. I do know, however, there is just as much work as I described above with the MeSYS no matter what may be on their website. Burning pellets requires work and interaction with the unit. It is not like an oil fired boiler where you just have you tanked filled when it needs it, and have it cleaned once a year. However the upside is being environmentally friendly, and keeping your money in North America.

Any other questions let me know.

 

[Fsappo]

As the Pinnacle distributor for New York, NJ, PA and a couple of other states, I would have to say I am very pleased with the lack of service calls in regards to the pb150. It seems like a very simple durable design. You'll be glad you bought one.

 

[Gooserider]

Just to clarify the Mass. Mess... Boilers and other pressure vessels installed in Mass., and used in a conventially pressurized system, MUST be ASME approved - no exceptions at this time... Open systems, or what I call a "European open" style system, where you are pressurized by a column of water - aka a pipe to an open tank on an upper floor - do not require the ASME approval. There was a definite effort to get this rule changed (I was involved personally, though not one of the primary people) but the Mass Board of Boiler Rules, composed of a bunch of ASME engineers, that work for ASME shops, insisted on maintaining the ASME stamp requirement.

Gooserider

 

[Chris Hoskin]

just a quick clarification dlimanov: The Excel boiler is a wood / fossil fuel 'dual fuel' boiler, not a pellet boiler. The pellet boilers we carry are the Tarm Multi-Heat and the Fröling P4. Neither are ASME approved, but both are UL approved.

 

[sinnian]

Just to clarify the Mass. Mess... Boilers and other pressure vessels installed in Mass., and used in a conventially pressurized system, MUST be ASME approved - no exceptions at this time... Open systems, or what I call a "European open" style system, where you are pressurized by a column of water - aka a pipe to an open tank on an upper floor - do not require the ASME approval. There was a definite effort to get this rule changed (I was involved personally, though not one of the primary people) but the Mass Board of Boiler Rules, composed of a bunch of ASME engineers, that work for ASME shops, insisted on maintaining the ASME stamp requirement.

Gooserider

The Traeger/Pinnacle PB150 is ASME stamped.

 

[bigbobs]

Curious if anyone has pulled the trigger and installed one of these bad boys, especially with vacuum delivery mechanism in place. I'm still torn between HS Tarm Excel 2000 and more budget-friendly option yet to be discovered.

I just returned from taking the 2 day course to become certified to install the OkoFen Automatic pellet boiler. This system is the way to go. Well thought out, proven technology. The only difference between oil and this system is you have to empty an ash canister every 2 weeks or so, and that is even "wife frendly". This system is fully automatic, thousand of systems in use in western europe. The owner of the company came and gave the course with his German head technican. If anybody wants to put a wood system in, and does not mind buying pellets rather than cutting split wood off there wood lot, I would go with this.
By mid november it will have the "H" stamp as the pressure vessels will be manufactured in the US. Boilers are now avaliable thru the dealer network being set up.


Here is a shot of the inside of the combustion chamber from the top.

Here is a shot of the front of the boiler partially disassembled

Here is a shot of two different burner sizes, there are 3 total in the line

Here is a shot of the owner giving the class

Here is a shot of the bag "tank" being assembled. This can be used with the vacuum system or auger system.

Link to the USA web site.

http://www.oekofen-usa.com/

If you are interested PM me and we can talk. A seminar will be given on Friday for potential customers in Bethel, Me at 8:30 AM if anybody is interested.

 

[Gooserider]

Just out of curiosity Bigbobs - has your company done many of these in the US? I know when I was talking with EKO up at the Maine Woodsman show he said that EKO and some of the other people trying to bring pellet burners into the US from EU were encountering feed problems, which is why EKO had stopped bringing them in at that time (I don't know if this has changed since) - Mr Orlanski wasn't sure of the exact reason yet, but thought that it was because of some subtle differences in the sizing specs between pellets in the US and EU...

I'm wondering if OkoFen has had enough US experience to be sure about how well their units work with US pellets?

Gooserider

 

[bigbobs]

Mesys told us that they shipped 5 tons of pellets to Austria for testing prior to Oekfen would even consider entering the US market. Premium pellets are the only fuel to be used with these units. No, I have not installed any yet, we were just certified to become installers of these units. There has been a unit running in Bethel this year. The first installations are being fired up now.
EU has 3 standards for pellets, where the US has 2. There standards are more inclusive of the chemical composition of the pellets. Mesys has worked with some of the local pellet plants to have them watch the chemical properties of the pellets and adjust their manufacturing process since they noticed problems and have since rectified these problems.
They owner of Oekfen is very, very conscious of how his product is used and is very through. I think he has about 27,000 units running worldwide, primarily in western Europe.

 

[Gooserider]

Sounds reasonable, and certainly somebody has to be the first "guinea pig" but I just thought it was worth asking since I knew that some of the other Eurobrands had encountered problems. While I personally am not convinced that pellets are the best way to go, I certainly hope you and Oekfen do well in the US market.

Gooserider

 

[bigbobs]

There are a lot of people out there that don't have the time to load a boiler, stack wood, cut wood, etc. They would consider switching if it were automatic. Maine alone spends $1.5 billion/year on heating oil. If that money were to stay in the local economy creating jobs, I would think the recession would be over for a lot of places in the US.
A lot of pellets are shipped from the US and Canada to Europe already. A new plant in Florida is going on line and will produce a million tons of pellets/year for export.

 

[Gooserider]

There are a lot of people out there that don't have the time to load a boiler, stack wood, cut wood, etc. They would consider switching if it were automatic. Maine alone spends $1.5 billion/year on heating oil. If that money were to stay in the local economy creating jobs, I would think the recession would be over for a lot of places in the US.
A lot of pellets are shipped from the US and Canada to Europe already. A new plant in Florida is going on line and will produce a million tons of pellets/year for export.

You may well be right, and I have no intent or desire to rehash the pellets vs. cordwood vs. dinosoars vs you-name-it, but I personally don't find the idea of pellets to be a convincing arguement - I don't see it as enough of an economically superior product to make me want to deal with the hassles of care and feeding of a pellet burner, which may be less than that of a cordwood burner, but is still worlds more than the "set & forget" nature of a dino-boiler... I'm also not convinced that moving money from the pockets of the dino distributors, installers, repairmen, etc. to the pockets of the pellet distributors, installers, repairmen, etc is going to make a big picture change in the economics of the world...

As I said, while I wish you great business success, (and am perfectly happy to have you prove me wrong thereby) *I* am not convinced that pellets are all that great of an answer to our heating needs. Others opinions are different, which is totally OK by me...

Gooserider

 

[bigbobs]

If I remember correctly 87 cents of every dollar spent on heating oil leaves the local economy almost instantly. The money would stay locally providing jobs to cut and process the wood to pellet size. Some money would go elsewhere to pay for the equipment involved, but would probably stay in the US economy, and some would go to pay for the dino fuel used during that manufacturing process.
A lot of split wood boiler technology came to the US years ago from Europe, this is just the next level of technology which brings it closer to "automatic" heat produced from wood. I currently burn split wood and I spend a lot of time doing it. If I have to pay for the cord wood, I don't think the pellets will cost that much more with almost no work on my part. You do not need storage for these units, just a bin or "tank" to store the pellets. I would think an install on one of these units would be less than the $30 K stated earlier.

 

[Gooserider]

If I remember correctly 87 cents of every dollar spent on heating oil leaves the local economy almost instantly. The money would stay locally providing jobs to cut and process the wood to pellet size. Some money would go elsewhere to pay for the equipment involved, but would probably stay in the US economy, and some would go to pay for the dino fuel used during that manufacturing process.
A lot of split wood boiler technology came to the US years ago from Europe, this is just the next level of technology which brings it closer to "automatic" heat produced from wood. I currently burn split wood and I spend a lot of time doing it. If I have to pay for the cord wood, I don't think the pellets will cost that much more with almost no work on my part. You do not need storage for these units, just a bin or "tank" to store the pellets. I would think an install on one of these units would be less than the $30 K stated earlier.

Well I define local as roughly planet sized, and I don't think the aliens are hauling our money away in their flying saucers :coolsmirk:

I will grant that purchasing CSD cordwood is more expensive than processing your own, albeit less time intensive, but every price I've seen for "serious burning" CSD has been way under pellets. My casual observation has been that pellets seem to track fairly close to the costs of dino, staying just a little bit under - seems like most of the savings comes from purchasing large volumes in the off season, and comparing that to the peak season oil prices (which ignores the "opportunity cost" of the money spent on pellets) Bottom line is that while pellets are a little cheaper than dino, the savings aren't huge, the way they are for self processed cordwood, or even moderate like they are for purchased CSD.

Operating a pellet setup also fits that medium spot, where it's less work than cordwood, but still a LOT more work than dino-style "set & forget" systems

I don't see a huge amount of people that would be all that enthusiastic about doing the increased work needed to operate a pellet setup, in order to gain the only modest savings it produces...

However I could be wrong... (Any idea where I can hitch a ride on one of those flying saucers?)

Gooserider

 

[smwilliamson]

Just to clarify the Mass. Mess... Boilers and other pressure vessels installed in Mass., and used in a conventially pressurized system, MUST be ASME approved - no exceptions at this time... Open systems, or what I call a "European open" style system, where you are pressurized by a column of water - aka a pipe to an open tank on an upper floor - do not require the ASME approval. There was a definite effort to get this rule changed (I was involved personally, though not one of the primary people) but the Mass Board of Boiler Rules, composed of a bunch of ASME engineers, that work for ASME shops, insisted on maintaining the ASME stamp requirement.

Gooserider

MEsys Autopellet 56KW Boiler is ASME approved. It's their largest model. Mid and small sized boilers to be ASME certified soon

 

[dlimanov]

Gentlemen,
Figured I'd post a reply to this.. Over the past year I tried to find someone local who's knowledgeable about the Okofen system and is willing to come out and do a site visit and give me some idea as to how much this may cost. So far I've failed to find such contractor: there are very few in Mass who are even familiar with the system, and those that are, have had virtually no experience with the install of the actual system. What's even more interesting, in almost all cases I was recommended to consider Okofen system as a backup to my current oil burner -- something I was hoping to avoid. Lastly, there appears to be no truck delivery of pellets, as it does in NH/ME, and it's still years away.
So, it looks like Okofen is far from prime, at least in residential applications in Mass. I'm back to drawing board, probably will need to look at HS Tarm Excel multi-fuel boiler again, hopefully they've gone down in price a little from last time I checked.