Oregon State University researchers are getting their PhD's in wood burning (just joking)

[begreen]

Even in optimal conditions modern stoves are polluting too, if you burn wood you are polluting.

That can be said of most human activity. If one farts, one is polluting. Heaven forbid one is raising livestock.

I am reaching way back but I thought Tom Oyen once posted testing a pre-EPA vs modern stove back in the 90s. Under optimal conditions the pre-EPA stove was emitting about 25-50g/hr of particulate, IIRC. Some modern stoves are under 1g/hr.

 

[stovelark]

I do know that when EPA first level came out stoves had to be less than 7.5 grams per hour right? It was said that non EPA stoves were emitting 60-70 grams per hour. I don't know of any non EPA stove burning cleanly, ha hence the name smoke dragon... I do know that EPA stoves that were burning 2-3 grams per hour looked no different or smelled different than stoves that qualified at 5-6 grams per hour. You couldn't smell any of them that were burning. While I think its great to get cleaner and cleaner, I always thought you'd need a machine to tell you you were burning cleaner at those levels (<7.5g/hr). Take care BG.

 

[kborndale]

That can be said of most human activity. If one farts, one is polluting. Heaven forbid one is raising livestock.

I am reaching way back but I thought Tom Oyen once posted testing a pre-EPA vs modern stove back in the 90s. Under optimal conditions the pre-EPA stove was emitting about 25-50g/hr of particulate, IIRC. Some modern stoves are under 1g/hr.

I'm not disagreeing that under optimal conditions an EPA stove burns cleaner than a smoke dragon. But what burns cleaner, an EPA stove burning in non optimal conditions or a smoke dragon burning under optimal conditions? What percentage of people with EPA stoves do you think burn under optimal conditions? What burns cleaner under non optimal conditions, smoke dragon or EPA? The only testing done seems to be under optimal conditions which is often not real world reality.

 

[begreen]

Yes, ultimately, the human element is the variable. Like my dad was fond of saying, 'the most important nut in a car is the one behind the wheel'.

This goes for wood selection, stove installation, stove operation, and stove maintenance.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Some threads remind me of The Office.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Todd]

Well if the prices of EPA stoves keep going up people will continue to either hold on to their old stoves or make their own. $4-6k for a stove is a lot for an average home owner not to mention stove pipe and chimney costs that could add just as much.

Old Fishers and a like are going for over $1000 on Marketplace and Craigslist. A makeshift firebrick baffle in these old smoke dragons can really improve emissions if more people knew.

 

[BKVP]

I've been working with the team at OSU. Their goal was to develop a retrofit device for older wood heaters. Incidentally, OR started regulating wood heaters in 1984, EPA began in 1988.

Truthfully, no one knows how many pre-EPA wood stoves are in homes, shops, churches etc. Calculations are made from emissions inventories, which are based upon data collected across the nation. In fact, the lead at EPA just accepted the buyout and this is her last week at the agency.

Having reviewed data, attended conferences and presentations by various agencies for nearly 30 years, lots of assumptions are made in calculations. Interestingly, even when some elements are not detected in sampling, a quantity is "added". This is because in other studies trace elements were detected.

Good discussion here all....

BKVP

 

[EbS-P]

Technology, legislation and regulation have made huge improvements in air quality. The easiest and dirtiest problems have solutions, that have for the most part been implemented. Wood burning I believe is in decline. Right now oil is cheap. Electricity prices are declining when adjust for inflation. I don’t see this trend continuing. I’m speaking for the US as a whole. There will always be a market for stoves and firewood. Regulations aren’t responsible for reducing wood consumption, economics are.

Steel prices are way up.( I don’t mind paying more but there better be an up side in the long run. That requires long term policy that is lacking) how many homes get renovated and the wood burner get removed?

A retrofit device is a good idea but unless it’s foolproof and nearly free it won’t gain traction. Can you imagine being required to bring your old car up to current emission specs?

An electrically heat CAT that sits above the stove with some style of fly ash separator seems like a plausible retrofit.

 

[BKVP]

Technology, legislation and regulation have made huge improvements in air quality. The easiest and dirtiest problems have solutions, that have for the most part been implemented. Wood burning I believe is in decline. Right now oil is cheap. Electricity prices are declining when adjust for inflation. I don’t see this trend continuing. I’m speaking for the US as a whole. There will always be a market for stoves and firewood. Regulations aren’t responsible for reducing wood consumption, economics are.

Steel prices are way up.( I don’t mind paying more but there better be an up side in the long run. That requires long term policy that is lacking) how many homes get renovated and the wood burner get removed?

A retrofit device is a good idea but unless it’s foolproof and nearly free it won’t gain traction. Can you imagine being required to bring your old car up to current emission specs?

An electrically heat CAT that sits above the stove with some style of fly ash separator seems like a plausible retrofit.

That concept was tried and failed. It was unable to work across multiple installations and technologies. I do agree regulations have resulted in cleaner air across many industries.

The one divice that does seem to work in ESP's. There in use across Europe and some tests are being run in the US.

This real issue is the cost. Retrofit that bring 70 gr/h stoves down to 6 gr/h are more than $1500.00. Some 2020 wood heaters are around that price and emit 2.0 or less.

Lots of clever folks here...built a $500 retrofit and the EPA will support the launch. It just has to be DURABLE!

BKVP