Pacific Energy Super Insert Install Concerns

[dback]

Today I had our Pacific Energy Super Insert installed by our local dealer. It was a challenging install and left me with areas of concern. The installation manual which I downloaded is identical to the manual supplied with the stove. The topic on page 12 is "Combustion Air" and I'm struggling to understand it.

We are not using and outside air (O/A) supply, we are using room air supply. It is states "Removal:" The O/A cover should be removed prior to installation.

Why I am posting this question is that when I close the door of the insert the fire all but goes out. The dealer's tech evidently has never installed a PE Super Insert before, and in all fairness to him I didn't see any labels on the stove pertaining to the O/A cover to the firebox. Is this cover supposed to be removed if using room supplie air?

My other concern is that the stove included four bolts about 3/8" in diameter and about 3" long. When I asked the installer about the bolts, he stated they were only used if the stove needed to be levelled.

The stove was installed without using any of these bolts. Is it necessary to use these bolts or can the stove rest on the floor of the original fireplace hearth? There is no mention of these bolts nor a recommended bottoem air gap that I could find in the installation instructions.

Several stove owners have mentioned doing a break in, but there is also no mention of a break in procedure in the manual.

I read great things about the PE

Thank you,
My first stove,
Dave

 

[Dix]

Hay Dave, welcome to the forums, incase I missed one of your earlier posts !

First, yes you need break in fires. Slowly raising the temp of the insert each time to burn off paint, residue, oils, etc.

I'm not sure about the O/A issue. I know my PE does not use O/A, and uses room air only, which has never been a problem.

As for your fire going out when the door is closed, my first thought is that you might be rushing it a bit. Get a good fire going from kindling, scraps, etc, then add your seasoned firewood. Let that get going, then close the door.

Do you have a thermometer on the face of the unit? It's a good guide towards what is going on inside the fire box.

Make sure your air control is set to "open" (thrown to the left) as you start the fire and get it going. You only shut the air down once you have a decent fire going.

Post back, we're here to help !

 

[dback]

Hay Dave, welcome to the forums, incase I missed one of your earlier posts !

First, yes you need break in fires. Slowly raising the temp of the insert each time to burn off paint, residue, oils, etc.

I'm not sure about the O/A issue. I know my PE does not use O/A, and uses room air only, which has never been a problem.

As for your fire going out when the door is closed, my first thought is that you might be rushing it a bit. Get a good fire going from kindling, scraps, etc, then add your seasoned firewood. Let that get going, then close the door.

Do you have a thermometer on the face of the unit? It's a good guide towards what is going on inside the fire box.

Make sure your air control is set to "open" (thrown to the left) as you start the fire and get it going. You only shut the air down once you have a decent fire going.

Post back, we're here to help !

 

[Dix]

*Is waiting for you to figure out the quote thingy. I am here*

 

[dback]

Thank you for the prompt reply. I do have the air control fully to the left in the start position. When I open the door smoke pours out of the stove. When I close the door the fire dies down immediately and soon stops burning. I don't have a temp gauge yet but I can touch the stove without burning my hand. This stove does have an outside air option, that's why I questioning whether the plate is supposed to be removed. I wish the PE instruction manual was more detailed and step by step. I felt bad for the installers. the surrounds also didn't fit nicely nor the side covers. They spent over an hour fiddling with them.
I'm sure I'm in for some steep learning curves too.
Thank you,
Dave

 

[Dix]

Show me a pic of this fire before you close the door, please.

How seasoned is your firewood?

 

[Cynnergy]

When I got my Super 27, the firebricks were soaking wet. As in I actually got some drips out of the stove on the first burn. It affected the burn a lot until I got the stove going long enough and hot enough to get the moisture out.

My stove manual didn't give great break-in instructions either, but it did come with a flyer from Stove Bright for baking in the paint so that's what I followed (broken link removed to http://forrestpaint.com/stove-bright/faqs-stove-bright-consumer-products/):
Q8: Is smoke and odor normal during cure?
A: During the curing process the chemical nature of the paint changes. The heat of the stove during curing will cause chemicals to burn off, sometimes resulting in visible smoke and annoying odor. This two stage curing process requires an initial medium size burn (about 450°F) for about 60 minutes to begin heat curing the silicone resin. As the paint heats, it will temporarily soften. Gradually, at the hottest spots, the paint will again appear dry. Immediately commence a hotter burn of about 600°F for another 45 minutes to complete the silicone cure. You will know when this occurs because the process creates some smoke and odor! After the “burn-off” is complete, there will be no more smoke or odor. Although the smoke/odor is not toxic, it is annoying. It displaces oxygen and may cause physical distress for some individuals and animals. Until this 2nd stage is finished, the curing process will be incomplete and may be a smoky annoyance at a later time. Please see our (broken link removed to http://forrestpaint.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/SBUserGuide2013.pdf) for detailed procedures.

I don't think the OAK cover is supposed to be removed unless you're hooking up an OAK. I didn't on mine.

 

[dback]

Show me a pic of this fire before you close the door, please.

How seasoned is your firewood?

Firewood is seasoned oak. Burned in the fireplace very well. Here's with the door opened. When I close the door the flames completely go away.

Thanks for your coaching,
Dave

 

[Dix]

Firewood is seasoned oak. Burned in the fireplace very well. Here's with the door opened. When I close the door the flames completely go away.

Thanks for your coaching,
DaveView attachment 129496

How long has the firewood been C/S/S (cut , split, stacked) ?

I'm thinking it's the firewood.

How about running down to 7 - 11 and picking up a pack of hot sticks and trying those?

 

[dback]

When I got my Super 27, the firebricks were soaking wet. As in I actually got some drips out of the stove on the first burn. It affected the burn a lot until I got the stove going long enough and hot enough to get the moisture out.

My stove manual didn't give great break-in instructions either, but it did come with a flyer from Stove Bright for baking in the paint so that's what I followed (broken link removed to http://forrestpaint.com/stove-bright/faqs-stove-bright-consumer-products/):
Q8: Is smoke and odor normal during cure?
A: During the curing process the chemical nature of the paint changes. The heat of the stove during curing will cause chemicals to burn off, sometimes resulting in visible smoke and annoying odor. This two stage curing process requires an initial medium size burn (about 450°F) for about 60 minutes to begin heat curing the silicone resin. As the paint heats, it will temporarily soften. Gradually, at the hottest spots, the paint will again appear dry. Immediately commence a hotter burn of about 600°F for another 45 minutes to complete the silicone cure. You will know when this occurs because the process creates some smoke and odor! After the “burn-off” is complete, there will be no more smoke or odor. Although the smoke/odor is not toxic, it is annoying. It displaces oxygen and may cause physical distress for some individuals and animals. Until this 2nd stage is finished, the curing process will be incomplete and may be a smoky annoyance at a later time. Please see our (broken link removed to http://forrestpaint.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/SBUserGuide2013.pdf) for detailed procedures.

I don't think the OAK cover is supposed to be removed unless you're hooking up an OAK. I didn't on mine.

Thank you for your post. I can accept some smoking from the paint and related parts however smoke pours out of the stove when the door is opened. When I close the door the flames die almost immediately. Did you install the leveling bolts in your stove or is it laying directly on the hearth. It's a guess, but I'm thinking that the smoke pouring out when I open the door is because there is no air circulation and it's not able to flow to the chimney. I open the door, air rushes in and displaces the smoke. The bottom line is I'm not getting any heat from a stove everyone has given 5 stars.

Thank you for your help,
Dave

 

[Cynnergy]

I agree with Dix - she knows her stuff! Wet wood is a common issue. I have a freestander (see avater) so it's not like an insert, but we didn't install the leveling bolts. Those shouldn't affect the burn in any way.

With the door closed, the smoke should billow down the front of the glass - that is the normal air circulation in the stove (it's the air wash).

 

[Dix]

Firewood is seasoned oak. Burned in the fireplace very well. Here's with the door opened. When I close the door the flames completely go away.

Thanks for your coaching,
DaveView attachment 129496

That's wet firewood in a PE.

 

[lindnova]

I have a PE spectrum stove (same as super 27 stove). Not as familiar with inserts. There is a plug in the back of the ash pan on mine that my manual said to remove if using room air. I removed it and it works fine.

I agree it sounds like you have an intake air problem. On mine, I start with some 1 piece of crumpled newspaper, some kindling, and a load of normal splits on top. Light it and close the door. Always gets itself going fast. I never burn with the door open ever. As said try some manufactured logs or very dry wood to rule the wood out. Your wood may not be ideal as these newer stoves like VERY dry wood to work best, but I don't think it is your problem. Something is not allowing air in. Possibly if the intake was on the bottom and no stands. Does yours have a ash tray? If it does try taking it out and seeing what happens.

Your dealer needs to help you with this. What you paid them for was a working stove install. Too bad the installer didn't know what he was doing. Not good. I did my own install, but either way, a fire in your home is nothing to cut corners or mistakes on installing.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Wet wood sux.....

 

[Grisu]

I agree with Dixie. Your problem is most likely wet wood (amplified by wet firebricks). Oak needs at least 2 years (better 3) split and stacked at best in single rows with lots of wind and sun exposure to season. That it burns in a fireplace ok with lots of air is no proof it is dry. Since you are new to woodburning a moisture meter is a good tool to have. For now take Dixie's suggestion and grab some kiln-dried wood from the store or find some pallets to cut them up. Lumber scraps (untreated wood, of course) would also work great. See how the stove does then before blaming the install.

 

[Hogwildz]

Is a full liner installed from top of old flue to the insert?
How tall is the liner?
Oak ain't dry unless it been sitting split and stacked for 3 years.
Is this load on a bed of established coals? Or cold start?
Sounds like poor draft and possibly wet wood.
How tight is the house?

Removal of O/A cover not needed unless your using outside air.
Leveling bolts not needed unless severely out of level.

 

[dback]

Is a full liner installed from top of old flue to the insert?
How tall is the liner?
Oak ain't dry unless it been sitting split and stacked for 3 years.
Is this load on a bed of established coals? Or cold start?
Sounds like poor draft and possibly wet wood.
How tight is the house?

Removal of O/A cover not needed unless your using outside air.
Leveling bolts not needed unless severely out of level.

The following page is what is confusing me...

 

[lindnova]

The following page is what is confusing me...View attachment 129504

So basically this says NOT to remove the cover if using room air, so what you have installed is correct. It also says not to seal around the fireplace - did the installer seal?

 

[firebroad]

Dave, I have a PE Alderlea T5 insert, and my instructions about the OA was EXACTLY the same, and I found it confusing, as well. Had they printed the removal instructions BEFORE number 2 (Room air supply), it would have made much better sense.
Now, most EPA certified stoves are so leaky, there is plenty of ways for the air to get to the interior, even when the damper is shut all the way down.
Also, your wood may be dry enough for the open fireplace, but it is not really WELL seasoned; I had this same thing happen to me the first year. Smoke when it gets started, fire went out when I shut it down. Have a listen when your door is open, do you hear a slight sizzle? The following year after being stacked all year, it was much better. The third year it was fantastic!
Unfortunately, I am so low on wood this year because of the colder winter, I fear that I will have to be judicious even next year, as I have gone through quite a bit, and have been dipping into next years'.
Welcome! You will learn a LOT from these folks.

 

[dback]

Dave, I have a PE Alderlea T5 insert, and my instructions about the OA was EXACTLY the same, and I found it confusing, as well. Had they printed the removal instructions BEFORE number 2 (Room air supply), it would have made much better sense.
Now, most EPA certified stoves are so leaky, there is plenty of ways for the air to get to the interior, even when the damper is shut all the way down.
Also, your wood may be dry enough for the open fireplace, but it is not really WELL seasoned; I had this same thing happen to me the first year. Smoke when it gets started, fire went out when I shut it down. Have a listen when your door is open, do you hear a slight sizzle? The following year after being stacked all year, it was much better. The third year it was fantastic!
Unfortunately, I am so low on wood this year because of the colder winter, I fear that I will have to be judicious even next year, as I have gone through quite a bit, and have been dipping into next years'.
Welcome! You will learn a LOT from these folks.

Issues resolved and a hearty thank you to all those who took the time to guide me. This forum had been absolutely fantastic. It's never easy being a novice, all the sales brochures show healthy fires and great but outputs and it all looks so easy. I also have to thank Pacific Energy's customer service as they too helped greatly in resolving this situation. This has been a humbling event in moving into my first house with a fireplace, and having an oil burner, it seemed that wood heat was the way to go. Also I'd like to clarify that we moved into the house in November and at that time a wood stove was not even being thought about and at that time no one knew this was going to be an incredibly cold winter. I'm sure the wood stove dealers had a good sales season. The only way I can put this in perspective is the year I was looking for a sump pump in the middle of a hurricane, good luck!
So here's what I've learned.
1. A good wood supply is a must. What burns well in the fireplace doesn't aways work in the stove. Get a moisture meter, split a piece of wood and measure the moisture content. I'm still new at this and may not be using the tool properly, but I compared some store bought kiln dried wood (2%) to my delivered "seasoned" oak (12%) and there is a huge difference in how they burn. I can start planning for years to come, but finding 2-3 year old seasoned wood in the middle of winter is just impossible.
2. Don't expect instant gratification. I can only relate to this particular stove, but it needed to broken in. During the break in process some smoking will be normal and the fire will not be ideal as the firebox bricks need to release the moisture that accumulated during their storage. Initally I used my "seasoned" oak and as noted in previous posts the wood was not dry enough. The store bought kiln dried wood confirmed that issue, As the stove was used the quality of each burn increased.
3. If possible, call the manufacturer of the stove and ask if they have any installation advice before installing the stove. The manufacturer tech reps recieve field reports (I used to be a field rep for a snowmobile manufacturer) and sometimes learn little tweaks like in the case of a snowmobile things like carb jetting and clutch setup. Such was the case when I called Pacific Energy. Their tech rep was incredibly helpful and I will certainly recommend their products based on how I was treated. Other stoves I considered were the Regency and Enviro, but PE was the only manufacturer that provided exact minimum dimensions needed for the stove and my fireplace is on the small side and my choices were very limited. Even my installer commented after uncrating the stove in my driveway that he didn't think the stove was going to fit.
The suggestions from PE's technical service were based on several factors. Our house is extremely air tight and the fit of the stove into our fireplace is really tight. Although removing the Outside Air (O/A) panel is not suggested in the installation instructions when setting up the stove using inside air as a source, removing this panel did help for our particular situation. Do note that we have the Design-E version of the Super Insert and there are some slight differences from the Design-D version.
Fortunately the O/A panel can be removed with the stove installed with a little care and wiggling and jiggling.
4. Have an experience person coach you on how to build a fire. Again, I'm a novice and all my fire building skills came from the Boy Scouts years ago. As I sit here in front of a relaxing warm fire and compose my thank you, I felt obligated to acknowledge everyone's support. I am most appreciative of the time you all took to coach me. It's a good thing, as it gives me a perspective of how my students feel when they are starting from scratch.

Now all that's left is to build a custom fit ember pad. Any idea what material is used as a side boarder around a custom made ember pad?

 

[lindnova]

Glad you figured it out. Happy Burning!

 

[Grisu]

Looks great! I have one myself and guarantee you that you will love it.

Get a moisture meter, split a piece of wood and measure the moisture content. I'm still new at this and may not be using the tool properly, but I compared some store bought kiln dried wood (2%) to my delivered "seasoned" oak (12%) and there is a huge difference in how they burn.

I don't understand those values. 12% is about as low as firewood gets unless you live in some arid state like Arizona. That oak should burn just great. Did you measure the center of the fresh surface along the grain? Have you tried the MM in some freshly cut wood?

 

[lindnova]

Good point. My PE burns anything under 20% great - gotta test on a fresh split. I haven't found any wood under 14% and that was wood that had been cut and split 6 year ago and sat in my shed for the last 3 years.

 

[madison]

....I don't understand those values. ....

Moisture Meters - might as well have a random number generator.

 

[dback]

Moisture Meters - might as well have a random number generator.

Unfortunately I don't have a chopping block to freshly spit wood so I'm sure my measurements are not accurate, I measured the wood on its end just to get a reference. Indeed I now need all the peripherals, a good chopping block and an overhaul of my worn out husqvarna chain saw which I bought as a fixer upper.
Thanks again everyone,
Dave