PE Pacific Insert Not Bullet-Proof

[Zzyk]

Thanks for keeping us all up to date on this situation. I was within a couple of days of buying 2 more pacific stoves (a second for me, one for my brother) and this has given me pause. The only reason I didn't buy them yet was probelms with the dealer.

Thanks again

 

[Sisu]

Have sisu, Sisu!

Kippis! It is my sisu that is hopefully getting me through this process.

 

[Sisu]

Thanks for keeping us all up to date on this situation. I was within a couple of days of buying 2 more pacific stoves (a second for me, one for my brother) and this has given me pause. The only reason I didn't buy them yet was probelms with the dealer.

Thanks again

No problem! I just got off the phone with the dealership. The service tech guy (Herb) who removed my stove has been away sick and won't probably be back until next week. I hope he is okay, as he was a nice guy to deal with. The other contact (Lynne) I spoke with said that she has spoken with the welder who is ready to do it today and wants to know the spots requiring repair. I verbally gave her the locations of the cracks. I just hope that will suffice. I offered to send pictures via email, but she said it wouldn't help the welder (he probably doesn't have email). She then said she would call back with the quote from the welder. That is when I told her that the stove was less than 5 years old and is under warranty. I guess that information wasn't given to her. She said that she will get the welder on the job asap.

Both Herb and Lynne have been great compared to the first dealer contact I dealt with. However, it seems that the more people that get involved, the more things get convoluted, information gets lost, and things seem to take a lot longer. Anyways, I am still trying to be patient. I am just kicking myself for not chalking the cracks before having the stove removed. I hope the welder goes over the stove thoroughly.

I am not sure how other stove manufacturers deal with their warranties. PE definitely stands by theirs, it is just having to deal with dealership, distributor, etc. that doesn't make the warranty claim as seamless and quick as it could be.

 

[53flyer]

Sisu,

I have a problem with their proposal. PE has a 5 year comprehensive warranty that covers parts and labor. Removing that stove and putting it back in is a lot of labor. I would tell them to come and get it and bring it back when its fixed.

Yep.

"5 Year Comprehensive

Pacific Energy will replace any part found to be defective (parts and labor) for five years from the date of purchase. This coverage includes electrical components (blowers, speed controls and thermal switches)."

And it says "replace". Not weld back together.

Ok, going a bit "backwards" I guess but this "replacement" point was brought up a few times then apparently dismissed and I'm wondering if it was ever brought up to Cory at PE. I realize that both Sisu & Hog seem to be happy irt getting their stoves welded but... I'm still having a problem with the warranty coverage because if the warranty says "Pacific Energy will replace any part found to be defective (parts and labor) for five years from the date of purchase." why aren't they replacing the stoves??? I also agree with points brought up stating that if these welds are bad there's a very good chance that other (non-visible) welds are bad as well so how does fixing the "seen" welds do anything to fix the potentially broken unseen ones? Again, if the warranty says "replace" why aren't they doing so? I'm very interested in this because I too have been considering a PE stove and the warranty was a big factor and one that is highlighted as "The industry's Best" in their stove brochures. I'm having trouble in my head thinking is thin a stove that I'll have to go through a drawn out repair process once or perhaps 2 or 3 times if the problem were to continue? Do you get a fresh 5yr where parts AND labor are covered after the repair work is done or if the repairs fail in 3yrs will you have to pay for labor?...

Additionally, my local dealer stated that even though "lifetime warranty" is legally only 7yrs in WA State that PE honored it as "lifetime". Then I read your posts stating the "5yr" warranty time-frame which got me wondering "just how long IS the warranty?". I realize that it actually says "Limited" Lifetime Warranty but the dealer was adamant that PE honored their product to the "Nth" degree. Yes, the dealer obviously wants to make a sale but from both a moral AND "legal" standpoint they shouldn't be throwing around extremely false information.

Ok, I found the area on PE's website that state's their warranty is 5yr comprehensive (includes parts & labor) http://pacificenergy.net/warranty.php. Apparently, if these cracks occurred (or weren't discovered till) after 5yrs the customer would be responsible for labor (removal, reinstall, etc)??? The cracks are defects and it really shouldn't matter if it was before or after 5 yrs should it? There's also some contradictory information on that warranty pg. Specifically, look below at the two bold areas:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 Year Comprehensive
Pacific Energy will replace any part found to be defective (parts and labor) for five years from the date of purchase. This coverage includes electrical components (blowers, speed controls and thermal switches).

CONDITIONS

For wood products – All installations must be installed according to all applicable local and national codes. It is the responsibility of the installer to ensure the unit is operating correctly at installation.

Any part that shows in our judgment evidence of defect shall be repaired, replaced or refunded at Pacific Energy’s option. The defective part may be required to be returned to Pacific Energy or an accredited agent, transportation prepaid.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can't say any defective part will be replaced (period) under the 5 Year heading then say a defective part will be repaired, replaced, or refunded a few paragraphs down because both conditions can't really occur "at the same time". I.e. if you're within 5yrs and it's defective the 5 Year statement assures it will be replaced (period). Assuming that statement is truthful, the follow on statement shouldn't be contradictory to that (or vice versa). Either change the 5 Year statement to say "repaired, replaced or refunded" just like it says under conditions OR remove the condition statement and relocate it to warranty conditions "outside" the 5yr window.

Anyway, a rant I suppose but I can't stand it when policies, warranties, etc., are made in such contradictory ways. In fact I believe that type of contradiction opens them up for being forced to comply with the stricter version of the contradictory statements under the "reasonable man" standard of the law irt an average person's interpretation, expectation, etc. of a given item.

End of rant. Sorry.

 

[53flyer]

I've read hundreds of posts by well pleased PE owners. My two best friends have PE inserts and they love them. My my PE dealer has been a local yokel for 25 years and has been dealing PEs for over 10 of those years without seeing one serious failure on a PE stove. Pardon me if I'm not impressed by a few cracks that do not appear to affect the utility of the stove in any way.

Just a quick few additions. The above post struck a nerve with me because to assume that just because your dealer hasn't seen a serious failure in no way indicates they're not occurring... Heck, 50 of the stoves the dealer sold may be damaged and your 2 best friends "could" have the problem and not even know it as well (unless they do regular "detailed" inspections). How big a percentage of all PE owners do we assume actually look close enough to even have the potential of finding these problems? How many of those would even realize it "was" a problem (it's less than you might assume). Heck, even Hog rutinely checked his and quite possibly was missing the defect during 1 or 2 of his inspections and he sounds like a fairly detailed checker. Anyway, the point is that just like with anything that actually gets reported (many more occurrences are going unreported).

BTW, what ever happened to Karl (post 90), and minesmoria (post 133) and their problems?

Also, can everyone else see all the pics in this thread? All I see is a statement saying:
"Image Attachments
Click thumbnail to see full-size image"
However, there is no thumbnail to click on and I see no pics. In other threads I have a similar problem but sometimes a few pics will actually show up (but never all of them). Any ideas? Thanks

 

[Sisu]

I agree 100 percent. Especially since I just spoke to the welder over the phone, to go over all the spots that required repair. Right away, he said that the corner door rim weld that gave away because it did not have enough penetration. He also said that he noticed other welds (that I did not observe) were sunk (ie. shoddy). He also said that they are welded as they are put together and that the repairs are going to be tough. The door rim cracked steel will have to be ground out and welded, making for a shoddy look possibly.

I told him that this stove is under warranty and if there is anything that he can't fix properly to let my dealer know. I spoke with Lynne and she is okay with that and said that they would get PE to replace it if repairs cannot be made.

Herb the service tech guy already stated that the stove did not look overfired. The welder has commented (like other posters here) about shoddy welds. And I do not want to have to rip the stove out again, if the repairs are unsatisfactory. Also, the 5 year warranty is almost up, so if I have to rip it out again, it will be on my dime.

I think I should contact Cory from PE just to see what he thinks.

 

[crazy_dan]

I see the pictures just fine.

Also you never know how many people are like me and would just the the cracks up my self since I have the equipment and know how to do that. I figure it would be easier to just do it where it sits VS haveing to take it some where and maybe get inferior work. I feel I will put a little more care and attention to detail since it is me and mine at risk.

 

[53flyer]

I agree 100 percent...Right away, he said that the corner door rim weld that gave away because it did not have enough penetration...said that he noticed other welds (that I did not observe) were sunk (ie. shoddy). He also said that they are welded as they are put together and that the repairs are going to be tough. The door rim cracked steel will have to be ground out and welded, making for a shoddy look possibly.

I told him that this stove is under warranty and if there is anything that he can't fix properly to let my dealer know. I spoke with Lynne and she is okay with that and said that they would get PE to replace it if repairs cannot be made.

Herb the service tech guy already stated that the stove did not look overfired. The welder has commented (like other posters here) about shoddy welds. And I do not want to have to rip the stove out again, if the repairs are unsatisfactory. Also, the 5 year warranty is almost up, so if I have to rip it out again, it will be on my dime.

I think I should contact Cory from PE just to see what he thinks.

Sisu- Quite honestly this seems like something that needs to be replaced (especially given what the welder said). The service guy saying it it didn't look overfired is a good point but less important to me only from the perspective that if PE doesn't give specific parameters that constitute "overfiring" then they shouldn't be able to say "you overfired it"...

I actually called PE directly (today) to discuss the concerns I have as a potential customer after seeing these problems (both manufacturing & warranty) pop up on this forum and considering the number of problems that are indicated to exist among all their stoves given this websites relatively small statistical sample size (as discussed in posts 178-80). They should feel more pressure to resolve these issues as more and more people contact them who either have the problem or have heard of the problem. The internet is a great resource for consumers and can be good OR bad for manufacturers depending on how they treat said customers (and "potential" customers). A bad reputation can start and spread quickly if allowed to get out of control and although I believe they're still holding onto a decent reputation with you and Hog I believe they've come close a few times and the problem isn't fixed yet either.

crazy_dan- That's exactly right in that you'd be part of yet another percentage of the people who found the problem but didn't report it because they fixed it themselves... When did you get your stove? Any issues so far with the box or the baffle? Dealers say they've never had an issue with the baffles either but right here we have some people who've had theirs warp.

 

[meathead]

I've read hundreds of posts by well pleased PE owners. My two best friends have PE inserts and they love them. My my PE dealer has been a local yokel for 25 years and has been dealing PEs for over 10 of those years without seeing one serious failure on a PE stove. Pardon me if I'm not impressed by a few cracks that do not appear to affect the utility of the stove in any way.

Just a quick few additions. The above post struck a nerve with me because to assume that just because your dealer hasn't seen a serious failure in no way indicates they're not occurring... Heck, 50 of the stoves the dealer sold may be damaged and your 2 best friends "could" have the problem and not even know it as well (unless they do regular "detailed" inspections). How big a percentage of all PE owners do we assume actually look close enough to even have the potential of finding these problems? How many of those would even realize it "was" a problem (it's less than you might assume). Heck, even Hog rutinely checked his and quite possibly was missing the defect during 1 or 2 of his inspections and he sounds like a fairly detailed checker. Anyway, the point is that just like with anything that actually gets reported (many more occurrences are going unreported).

BTW, what ever happened to Karl (post 90), and minesmoria (post 133) and their problems?

Also, can everyone else see all the pics in this thread? All I see is a statement saying:
"Image Attachments
Click thumbnail to see full-size image"
However, there is no thumbnail to click on and I see no pics. In other threads I have a similar problem but sometimes a few pics will actually show up (but never all of them). Any ideas? Thanks

Hey...I never said that...

I think you formatted your quote wrong

 

[Sisu]

I think 53 Flyer was trying to quote Bigg Redd.

I just spoke with Lynne from the dealership via the phone. She stated the welder does not think he can get at the internal cracks. Lynne is going try to process the claim for replacement of the unit via distributor.

I tried calling Cory from PE yesterday, but he wasn't at work unfortunately. I think this information coming from the welder and dealer will help the warranty claim. I will keep you posted on what happens.

 

[tradergordo]

The more important question is - why are the welds so bad? And how many PE stoves out there have similar shoddy welds? This seems like something people may not notice right away, and we already have more than one person here with the problem. The welds in the pictures you guys posted here look AWFUL, like they were done by someone that didn't know what they were doing. You also have a professional welder who inspected the stove in person and said the same thing.

Aren't these stoves inspected by someone other than the welder after they are assembled? Those stoves should never have left the factory floor.

 

[BrotherBart]

... like they were done by someone that didn't know what they were doing.

Kinda true. PE uses robotic welders.

 

[tradergordo]

... like they were done by someone that didn't know what they were doing.

Kinda true. PE uses robotic welders.

WOW - that makes it even more surprising. I assumed it was human welded only because of how bad the welds look. I guess it was a case of poor maintenance or operation on the equipment? I have no idea, but either way, doesn't matter how it was done, you'd still expect that every stove would be carefully inspected before leaving the factory.

 

[Hogwildz]

I didn't get a chance to ask Cory, but I'm thinking the outer shell welds are robotic, and the inners are hand welded by a person.
Might have been a stoner on the production line between 2006 & 2007.

 

[crazy_dan]

crazyary- That's exactly right in that you'd be part of yet another percentage of the people who found the problem but didn't report it because they fixed it themselves... When did you get your stove? Any issues so far with the box or the baffle? Dealers say they've never had an issue with the baffles either but right here we have some people who've had theirs warp.

so far no issues I have not had any cracks and the only problem I have had is a minor one of the piece of metal in the front of the firebox just inside the door with the 6 holes in it. which i fixed myself by cutting 3/16" off of each end after straitening it out.

I got my Summit in Jan 2008
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/14446/

 

[meathead]

I think 53 Flyer was trying to quote Bigg Redd.

I just spoke with Lynne from the dealership via the phone. She stated the welder does not think he can get at the internal cracks. Lynne is going try to process the claim for replacement of the unit via distributor.

I tried calling Cory from PE yesterday, but he wasn't at work unfortunately. I think this information coming from the welder and dealer will help the warranty claim. I will keep you posted on what happens.

2 issues come to mind

1 - to the PE stove buying public - if the robotic welder was set poorly for Sisu's stove, it was probably set poorly for an entire batch of stoves. Poor penetration on one weld for these things more often than not means poor penetration on the next, and all the ones after that until someone services the welder.

2 - Sisu, you are a patient man. This is not going well. You spoke to a new dealer contact and had to give her the locations of the cracks so she could verbally tell the welder where they are? This thing does not have a snowball's chance in he77 of getting fixed right. Either

a) the welder is competent with stove repairs and will be able to check all possible stress points himself and make all needed repairs

or b) the welder is a laborer (not saying he's not a good one) who will weld where people tell him to weld. You are now playing the telephone game with your stove repair at the far end of the line. To be honest I would be glad the welder can't get at the cracks if I were you...because the chances of you telling a woman from the dealer where the cracks are over the phone (even though she should have pics on file and not have to ask) and her understanding your description of every locatiopn and conveying them to the welder in such a way that he knew exactly where every issue was and made a propper repair sounded pretty dismal to me.

Like a couple others have said - you deserve a new stove...before it gets warm out again.

 

[Sisu]

I think Hog is correct about the welds. From what I remember, the outer welds are done robotically.

Meathead - I think the welder they used is a good one and I did speak to him directly. He was the first one to express concern about getting into the firebox to repair the welds. He said that the original welds are made as the unit is being put together, which is a lot easier than welding after the fact.

I told him that it is under warranty, so if he didn't feel that he could weld them properly, to tell the dealer. He did assess the work, and told the dealer that he could not properly repair the internal welds. After that, Lynn from the dealership asked me yesterday if I had pictures of the internal cracks to send to the distributor. I looked at my sent emails, and confirmed that I had sent the distributor those pictures. I confirmed the names of the pictures with Lynn, so that she could tell the distributor the exact pictures.

Lynn has been great. Night and day from the original dealer contact. So I am just waiting to hear back as to the next step.

 

[Sisu]

I just got a call from Lynn from the dealership. She said they have the photos and she is completing an RMA (return to manufacturers's form). The firebox will be going to the distributor on Monday for their welder to assess. I guess if it is deemed that it cannot be repaired, then replacement is warranted.

It seems to be going in circles a bit. It is the distributor that is holding up things now. Lynn is trying to do all she can, but now the distributor's welder has to make a second opinion. I just hope that the distributor's welder does not have any bias towards the assessment.

I will be away next week deer hunting, but I will be updated by my wife about the proceedings. I will let you know what happens when I get back.

 

[drdoct]

Nothing like spending more to save less. If the stove is under warranty then I bet it's cheaper to just drop ship one out to replace than to jack with it for months trying to get people to weld and piece things together. I guarantee the customer is happier to just have a new stove in 2 weeks instead of having to deal with all this just to get back a stove that has a pretty good chance of being repaired wrong. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I've read hundreds of posts by well pleased PE owners. My two best friends have PE inserts and they love them. My my PE dealer has been a local yokel for 25 years and has been dealing PEs for over 10 of those years without seeing one serious failure on a PE stove. Pardon me if I'm not impressed by a few cracks that do not appear to affect the utility of the stove in any way.

Just a quick few additions. The above post struck a nerve with me because to assume that just because your dealer hasn't seen a serious failure in no way indicates they're not occurring... Heck, 50 of the stoves the dealer sold may be damaged and your 2 best friends "could" have the problem and not even know it as well (unless they do regular "detailed" inspections). How big a percentage of all PE owners do we assume actually look close enough to even have the potential of finding these problems? How many of those would even realize it "was" a problem (it's less than you might assume). Heck, even Hog rutinely checked his and quite possibly was missing the defect during 1 or 2 of his inspections and he sounds like a fairly detailed checker. Anyway, the point is that just like with anything that actually gets reported (many more occurrences are going unreported).

BTW, what ever happened to Karl (post 90), and minesmoria (post 133) and their problems?

Also, can everyone else see all the pics in this thread? All I see is a statement saying:
"Image Attachments
Click thumbnail to see full-size image"
However, there is no thumbnail to click on and I see no pics. In other threads I have a similar problem but sometimes a few pics will actually show up (but never all of them). Any ideas? Thanks

Hey...I never said that...

I think you formatted your quote wrong

x2

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Quick! Everyone off the PE bandwagon! I think we can still catch the BK bandwagon if we hurry!

 

[crazy_dan]

Quick! Everyone off the PE bandwagon! I think we can still catch the BK bandwagon if we hurry!

Nah I don't like cats

 

[53flyer]

Hey...I never said that...

I think you formatted your quote wrong

But you wanted to right?...j/k Sorry about the format mix-up. I went back & fixed it (post 179) today.

Quick! Everyone off the PE bandwagon! I think we can still catch the BK bandwagon if we hurry!

???...
Many of the people posting on this thread have neither a PE nor BK so how do people come off the bandwagon they were never on? I'm not even on the "Quad bandwagon" (the freestanding stove I have). However, I do find it quite interesting to read about the various real life issues people are experiencing with their stoves (any stoves). Most people are presumably interested in simply watching to see how these issues are resolved. Just as important to most (I assume) is discovering if some underlying reason for these problems was discovered that PE has (or will) fix iot prevent future occurrences. This thread is particularly interesting to me because the PE is one of the brands I've been considering. It became even more interesting for me as people who didn't even start this thread began to discover problems they may not have otherwise discovered if not for this thread (like Hog, Karl [post 90], and minesmoria [post 133]). Btw, What's going on with your stoves Karl & minesmoria :question:

 

[greythorn3]

damn i thnk the bandwagon left me! my bandwagon left 20-30 years ago!

 

[fredarm]

Many of the people posting on this thread have neither a PE nor BK so how do people come off the bandwagon they were never on? I'm not even on the "Quad bandwagon" (the freestanding stove I have). However, I do find it quite interesting to read about the various real life issues people are experiencing with their stoves (any stoves). Most people are presumably interested in simply watching to see how these issues are resolved. Just as important to most (I assume) is discovering if some underlying reason for these problems was discovered that PE has (or will) fix iot prevent future occurrences. This thread is particularly interesting to me because the PE is one of the brands I've been considering. It became even more interesting for me as people who didn't even start this thread began to discover problems they may not have otherwise discovered if not for this thread (like Hog, Karl [post 90], and minesmoria [post 133]). Btw, What's going on with your stoves Karl & minesmoria :question:

I have a PE and I'm interested in seeing how this plays out. I don't have any problems with my stove (that I'm aware of) but would like to know if PE stands behind their warranty. This is a real-world test case, so please continue to keep us posted.