PE Summit (Insert), cracks and EBT modification?

[1jmiii]

I was Here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pe-pacific-insert-not-bullet-proof.37956/ and spent quite a few hours happily absorbing it. I posted the following without much hope that anyone would notice but begreen was kind enough to advise me to start a new thread with a copy/paste so here it is. I am new to this so hope I have done it appropriately:

I spent most of Christmas eve 2012, reading this thread, https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pe-pacific-insert-not-bullet-proof.37956/page-16, and found it most informative. I too have a 2008 Summit Insert ("Packed with care" slip dated 10/21/08, QC checklist dated 12/09/08) with cracks. Don't know if this thread just dropped dead December 3, 2009 or has been moved elsewhere. If anyone is reading this who knows where it went I would really appreciate some guidance.

I noticed cracks along the edges of the seam welds, top and front, of the right side panel of the firebox about a year ago while fiddling with the fan. They did not seem to hurt anything but I mentioned them at Fireplace Warehouse while I was there buying a gasket. They immediately said "Lifetime Warranty" but I did not pursue it because the cracks were minor and removal would be messy and a whole lot of work. Among other things 12' of Persolite insulated chimney liner would need to be removed after dismantling 13" of class A pipe from above the chimney. I was only here about six weeks last winter and successfully made a lot of heat without problems. This year I reglued the door gasket upon my return to the Great Basin, let it air dry for a day and then fired up a small burn to heat cure the glue per instructions. After several hours of low heat I was dead tired so I packed in a lot of wood, set the air control to about half and went to bed. Woke up in the early morning to a house full of smoke. Apparently the fire smoldered for hours before relighting. Tried to recreate the series of events and eventually thought I saw a wisp of smoke just above the door top hinge. Dismantled the trim side panels and bay top, removed the fan and found emanations from the cracks to have left smoke trails leading towards the fan. Under the right conditions combustion gasses can escape the firebox; not normal, but it does happen. I will be attempting to file a warranty claim with Fireplace Warehouse but do not expect much. I have read that the company folded a couple of years ago and is being operated under the same name/locations on a shoestring budget by new management. They certainly don't get any favorable reviews these days but the people on the floor there have always been helpful and willing, past and present, for me. I will remove the fireplace's innards and inspect the back, top, bottom and interior when the weather gives me a break. Hope I don't find anything more (as of now no externally visible cracks around the door frame top corners) because I really don't want to dismantle, remove, truck 630 miles back to Denver, and then rebuild everything. As it sits I can Vee out the known cracks, preheat the stove with a fire, and stick weld repairs. It would be hard to know where to quit Veeing old weld and rewelding because all of the right side welds look like crap with raised edges along the flat panel side that may be cracks that haven't opened up enough to pass smoke. I went to school for welding on the GI bill, got a few certifications, built a few things and had a lot of fun about forty years ago. Only did incidental welding as part of my job doing heavy vehicle repair but I can still burn in some 7018 rod and get penetration where PE did not - IF I can get to all of the places that need welding.

Now on to my questions! Why did this happen and what to do about it? Obviously inferior welds and poor design (90* corners everywhere) are the root causes but I think the stresses generated by high operating temperatures lead to failures in a poorly constructed firebox. My complaint is that operating temperatures are not fully under my control because the EBT valve opens when the box gets hot. I had noticed and not liked this on several occasions previously because the stove makes more heat than I want and rapidly burns what I had hoped to be a full nights fuel. Last night as I sat reading this thread this recurred: I had a nice fire actively burning but getting low on wood so I added about four big splits and immediately returned the air control to minimum. The new fuel lit in seconds and proceeded to burn vigorously for about two hours. I stayed up and observed the stove while reading several more pages of this thread. The intense heat warmed the living room and kitchen of my 12x60 beercan to 89* in those two hours. I listened with new appreciation to the loud pings, pops and bangs coming from the cracked steel box. I was searching for information about modifying the EBT valve when I found this thread. I examined the works of the EBT and tested its function with a heat gun prior to installing the insert and it was functioning correctly. Several people have mentioned the undesirable aspects of the EBT's operation, i.e. adding air when the fire is already hot, and at least one has disabled it. I want to modify it to be open, adding air, on cold start, close as efficient heating temperatures are reached, then reopen on cool down to get a little more heat while reducing the pile of coals. I am reasonably sure I can do this by reversing the location of the valve L and adding a screw to the back of the L changing its center of balance causing it to tip to a normally open position. The now divorced thermostatically driven operating crank would be reconnected to the L with a short piece of light chain. When the crank rotated in response to elevated temperatures it would pull the L to a vertical/shut position thus damping the fire while I sleep. Has anyone done anything like this? Getting at the EBT underneath my Summit Insert is going to be groan and I would like to do it only once so other's knowledge would be very helpful.

Slightly different subject; had a problem with the Boost Manifold plate warping in a upward bow about 3/8" as soon as I started using the furnace. Brought it back to Denver and showed it to the folks at Fireplace Warehouse. Immediate response "overfired". I didn't think so but did not want to get into a fight so I just straightened it in a press (very easy, soft stainless steel) and reused. Warped again next decent fire I built. Considered the material, shape of the part, and installation location. After straightening a second time I shortened the manifold about 1/16" and reinstalled. No further problems. I was very interested to read a poster recount this exact problem and cure as told to him by PE. Sure wish I had read that they found the cause of cracked fireboxes and fixed it before they made mine!

If anyone has read my tale of woe this far there must still be a spark of interest and I would really appreciate any insight or further history of PE's warranty performance regarding cracks and possible EBT valve modifications.

 

[madison]

You will find this interesting : https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/summit-t6-boost-maniflold.26806/#post-408731

They had changed the tolerances and dimensions of the boost manifold, per my conversation with PE. They shipped me a replacement but i had to go thru the dealer.

The method handling of warranty issues is not very customer friendly, and the dealers avoid warranty issues because of the hassles of dealing with the manufacture.

 

[begreen]

Given that you are seeing weld cracks that may be a warranty issue I would hesitate recommending permanent mods. Instead, try taking some aluminum foil and using it to plug the EBT intake. You don't really need the boost manifold. Starting is easy as long as you have good kindling and dry wood.

I would also take pictures of the cracks and make pencil marks to note their extents. You want to know right away if they are spreading.

 

[BrotherBart]

Yeah I would put furnace cement over the cracks until you find out what is going to happen with the warranty issue. If the metal moves too much it will fall off but don't go hitting it with the welder or warranty is all over.

 

[1jmiii]

Back in NV so time to experiment. I removed the EBT and modified it to be open cold and then close when heated. The function of the bi-metallic spring has to be reversed to pull the flapper valve closed when heated instead of push the flapper open when heated. I simply flipped the spring over to get the right rotation. The orientation of the actuating rod tip was not mechanically acceptable so I redrilled the spring anchor bolt hole. Added a small bolt as ballast to change the static position of the flapper from closed to open. Bent up a 1" piece of light mechanics wire for an operating link then placed half of a ball point pen spring on either side of the flapper with the rod through a small hole drilled in the top of the flapper. The spring both pushes and pulls on the flapper while allowing overtravel in both directions when very hot or cold temps cause the spring to wind past the limits of the flapper. Probably do not need the ballast bolt but it was there first. Bench tested with 22*F ambient this morning and heat gun to about 300*F as measured by my cheapo infrared thermometer; works as I intended. I have no idea of the temperatures the bi-metallic spring encounters when attached to the bottom of the firebox. It is usually insulated by an inch or three of ash, a layer of firebrick and the 1/4" steel plate firebox bottom. Heat has to get through all of that to actuate the spring while the spring enclosure is bathed in a flow of outside (damn cold) air on it's way to the primary combustion air port. Test fires after other work is completed and I decide what to do about the failed welds on the fan side endplate of the firebox.

 

[Hogwildz]

Congratulations, you just documented that you modified the stove, and have now voided the warranty.

 

[madison]

Also suggest not using "1jmiii" in your request for warranty work Maybe change your location to throw them off... Not that they will respond that promptly or anything

 

[Hogwildz]

If you have no luck through the dealer. Then, try contacting PE direct.

 

[loon]

Congratulations, you just documented that you modified the stove, and have now voided the warranty.

I voided mine also Hogs! Hence the 16 hour burn

 

[begreen]

FWIW, Tom at the ChimneySweep also reported 16 hr burns with this firebox, without any mod.

 

[Nocattom]

I voided mine also Hogs! Hence the 16 hour burn

Hay loon what are we looking at here?

 

[loon]

Down near the bottom of this page Nocattom

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/reducing-alderlea-t5-combustion-air.102027/

 

[10-cc]

When I called PE to tell them that my ebt does not operat it is always close, they told me that it is normal
It opens only when it needs to.

It always makes no sens to call a "burn" when the stove heat output goes below say what
5000 btu/hr? Hence about 6 hr max burne time in my book.

 

[Hogwildz]

No mods here, and I am consistently getting minimum 12 hour burn times. 16 is also achievable, but depends on how cold outside temp is for the heat output to be sufficient or not.
10, if your only getting 6 hours, you may want review and adjust either your burning habits, or your wood supply..

 

[10-cc]

All i m saying a 3cf box rated for 3000 fs maks no sens andi m not talking heat lost her
Whatever outside temp are whatever heat lose your house have, we are looking at heat output from a given stove,
Not b urn time, burn time is meaninglesse. The main thing is HEAT OUTPUT at a given time.
I too fillup my T6 at 10pm and next morning have coials and stove top temp is 300F, but again what is the heat output of a 3cf stove when the top stove tem is arround 300 F? For a 3000fs house it is not consider a useful heat only a space (4x4) heater.

 

[BrotherBart]

They say it will heat up to 3,000 sf. Just not for how long.

 

[Hogwildz]

First off, please consider using the spell check feature of your browser.
Secondly, you brought up burn times, I merely replied to your statement.
As far as heat output vs. outside temps. It is all relevant. The colder it is outside, the more it takes to keep inside the home warm. The crappier the insulation you have or don't have. Wood species and dryness, etc. etc. etc.It is all RELEVANT!
Don't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Another HUGE factor is the layout of the home, whether or not it has a good convective loop, etc.
I highly doubt the output was at 300 the entire length of the burn.
It is widely know that wood stoves are space heaters. Some are just fortunate enough to have the layout of the home, or air movement, to heat more than just the general area of the stove.
There is a big difference of heating a 3000sf wide open or very open area, and trying to heat 3000sf of a box made up of closed off or separate rooms, and expecting the heat to just cruise to all those rooms and make itself at home.
As has been said many times, one stove, one set up, one heat output is not the same for some places as it is for others.
If you are running those 2 PE's and not heating your space, then the space is not open for good heat distribution, your wood is not ready, or you just have not learned to burn your stove(s) efficiently yet.

 

[10-cc]

Sorry for the spelling as i have no access to one I will try hard I promisse.
Hog, heat output is heat output regardlesse of all factors,
even if you put you stove in a. -40F environement, say outside,
it will stil give out the same heat output as if you put the stove in
the heat of a desert say 120F , this too does not take a rocket
sience to understand bye the way may summit and my T6,
are placed in differnt houses and I have the advantage to work with both and compare and this since
1998, Just may 2 cents. Hope you learnd somthing...

 

[begreen]

There are 3000 cu ft houses that could easily be heated with a Summit at 0F outside. It is basically a matter of heat loss. If you can stop the building from radiating heat through the exterior, a little heat can go a long ways. This requires careful attention to thermal bridging, small leaks, glazing, etc. but it can be done.

 

[Hogwildz]

Sorry for the spelling as i have no access to one I will try hard I promisse.
Hog, heat output is heat output regardlesse of all factors,
even if you put you stove in a. -40F environement, say outside,
it will stil give out the same heat output as if you put the stove in
the heat of a desert say 120F , this too does not take a rocket
sience to understand bye the way may summit and my T6,
are placed in differnt houses and I have the advantage to work with both and compare and this since
1998, Just may 2 cents. Hope you learnd somthing...

Um, ok, thanks for the schooling. Not sure what your trying to teach me.
I have not clue what point your trying to make.
You stated that "All i m saying a 3cf box rated for 3000 fs maks no sens".
The you state that heat loss and other factors, are irrelevant.
A stove or any other appliance rated to heat a certain space, will do so in either an optimal way, or not, and many places in between.
I heat 2666sf just fine. If I added another 400sf and it was open as most the rest of this home is, it would do just fine. And would do so for more than 6 hours.
Yes heat output is heat output, but depending on if it is outside or inside or wherever, and the other factors involved, dictates how effective that heat will be used.
All I see is you jumping from complaining about sf area claimed to be able to heat, then jumping to btu output at a low output not being a "burn" in your book, then comparing the same heat output in outside -40F environment, compared to indoors.
Sorry, you are making no sense to me, and I don't have the energy to try to decode your enlightening educational experience your trying to point out.
If your so unhappy with one PE, why buy another? You can always sell them and buy something else, and I just bet we will hear the same complaints & statements anyway.
There are plenty of BK owners on here burning low burn at probably near the 5000 btu output you use as an example, and many of them are in very cold reaches of Alaska & Canada, and they don't seem to have the issues you describe.
So again, it comes down to heat loss, user operation and other factors outside the stove.
The only thing I have been educated with is there are more than one "seasoned" burners in the world that really don't have a clue how to burn, what to burn, or patience enough to hone their burning skills, learn their stove, and burn truly dry wood. Congrats on burning since 1998, and still not achieving what you seek from the stove. Sad to say, you got me there. I have only been burning my Summit since 2006, having no problem heating my 2666sf home, and even after 6 years, still continue to dial in and learn better burning habits with the insert I have. Heck, just last year, 4 years in, I learned I could go every 12 hours between loads, even longer with milder temps outside, instead of every 8 hours and 3 loads a day I used to burn. Yeap, your got more time in, and obviously more knowledge and experience with your PE's, than I do mine.
I will truly keep that in mind, when I am doing my thing around here 6 hours after loading my stove, knowing I have at least another 6 hours before having to load again, and being nice and toasty in between.
I have "learned" from your input, and appreciate your vast knowledge and experience.
Thank you.

 

[BrotherBart]

 

[1jmiii]

Well I have my stove burning again, that makes me happy, and the initial results of my EBT modifications are good. Starting with a stone (more on that later) cold clean firebox to a fire burning with no visible smoke in 20 minutes is quite a bit faster than previous results. The open EBT seems to add enough primary combustion air to the 100% open manual control air to get the fire going in a hurry. I observed some blue flames and flame pattern modifications from the centered line of holes in the secondary air manifold at about 30 minutes. At 45 minutes the EBT valve was obviously closing and fully closed at 1 hour. This is from dead cold, cleaned out, 1/3 partial load of 2" limb wood on top of about 2 quarts of pine bark kindling. Very respectable in my opinion. I never added enough fuel to get a roaring hot fire, just not cold enough last night, but the EBT was still closed this morning after an eight hour burn with a mostly closed manual air setting. Plenty of hot coals to ignite new wood in 5 minutes. The morning fire is pretty much burned down to inactive coals now and the firebox bottom retains enough heat to keep the EBT closed showing about 200*F on my infrared thermometer. It may just be wishful thinking but it seemed that I had much better control over the fire last night than previously. With the fire burning vigorously closing the manual air to factory minimum caused the visible flames to disappear in a few minutes. Minimum air is now supplemented by air entering through a 1/4" hole I drilled in the bottom of the EBT box but covering/uncovering this hole makes no visible difference in flame activity. Moving the air lever makes lots of difference and I left the air hole about 30% open overnight rather than fully (approximately 20% factory stop) closed as I had in the past. Maybe the stock EBT was starting to open before I thought it was. To anyone reading this contemplating buying a PE Summit: Remarks address issues on a Series A stove built a long time ago. Other Summit A owners have reported firebox cracks and various runaway fire experiences but I have not read of any such in Summit Series B fireplaces. From what I have read the EBT design is totally different and sounds superior to me. Wish I had one.

My initial conclusion is that the EBT closed too soon at a temperature lower than I desire. Consequently it does not reopen soon enough to improve end stage burning of coals, one of my goals. I will remove the EBT and reset the anchor screw to the bottom of the factory adjustment slot when I can get my fingers in there. This will preload my actuator springs to the closed position by about 30*angular. During my heat gun testing I guesstimated that the flap started to close at about 200*F and was fully closed at 85*F. I am hoping my adjustment will raise the fully closed temperature by 100*F.

Some seem concerned about my voiding the warranty; not me. I voided the warranty on my $20,000 Cummins without hesitation because I wanted something the factory did not provide and I will do the same for a $2300 fireplace. "Speed costs money, how fast did you want to go?" When you want performance out of anything you become your own warranty center. The Summit insert basically does everything I want it to and no other insert offered the same combination of features, size, chimney fit, and esthetics I wanted. I am happy with it. Its weaknesses relate to EPA requirements, poor construction and inattention to detail design, all of which I can rectify. Hindsight being 20/20 there are things I wish I had done differently. A great deal of effort went into preparing the chimney and installing the liner and stack. Removal of this stove would require dismantling 13' of 6" class A stack from the top of about 14' of brick chimney and then pulling out 11' of liner insulated with about 2 cubic feet of Persolite insulation. The insulation, super light coarse powdery stuff, would be all over my living room. NOT if humanely possible. In the unlikely event that PE offered me a free replacement firebox after a long claim process it would be unreasonable to expect my dealer to come 630 miles to replace it and I don't care to make a 1260 mile trip to pick it up myself (it was a loading dock purchase). Others have documented unpleasant protracted warranty fights. I believe my cracks were caused by a combination of design features and poor workmanship. The overfire events happened while my stove was unmodified, installed per instructions and code, operated in accordance to the woefully inadequate instruction manuel. I just happen to think I can do better than PE did. Quality structural welds are not easy or cheap to make and I have not seen or heard any evidence that PE's fabrication techniques have fundamentally improved. Examination of all of the other welded joints points to assembly methods aimed at inexpensive production rather than sound welds. Correcting those deficiencies would require major changes to workplace tooling, techniques and procedures. Sorry I ranted so long. If I can avoid involuntary overfiring I may avoid the cracks worsening and my never need to repair weld.

If the premise that the EBT valve is a device designed to allow a large dirty firebox to pass EPA requirements is correct then I have concerns about creosoting the flu. As a preliminary measure I visually inspected the flu as best I could. The bottom 10 or fifteen feet I could see are pristine. I will reinspect next summer. There were significant deposits of fluffy dry creosote in top back corners of the firebox above the secondary air manifold. Airflow patterns in the chamber above the secondary manifold were obvious. Heat is not as evenly dispersed in the top of the firebox as I had hoped and I do not understand the purpose of the large heat shield fastened to the bottom of the top plate.

As often stated, every installation is different. My installation is in a dry cold windy desert at 5300' elevation in a 1968 12' X 60' trailer built with 1" fiberglass insulation in walls built with 2" X 3" studs. Almost everything possible has been addressed to keep the wind out. The Summit is overkill for this residence. My firewood is very dry pinion pine. External combustion air in and exhaust thru a mostly straight 24' insulated flu with a vacu-stack on top. YMMV

 

[tim1]

A 12x 60 trailer with a summit stove burning pine, are you kidding? You must have all the windows open! Thats alot of stove for that space, but to each his own. Tim

 

[1jmiii]

Yep, The Summit Insert is overkill most of the time but I have always liked having more motor than I need - as if that is possible!. We do get periods of -10*F with strong winds that allow me to open up the air lever. This antique trailer has lots of poorly insulated surface area that sucks the heat out. My dissatisfaction with the EBT stems mostly from those cold periods and several "run-away" burns that I blame on the factory EBT. Have now burned enough times with my modified EBT to confirm that I like the way it works. Having the EBT open in addition to the air control lever at 100% open adds slightly to the total combustion air available for cold start and I think shortens start up time but I cannot quantify at all. The thickness of the ash layer has a lot of effect on how fast heat penetrates the bottom of the firebox which has a lot of effect on how fast the EBT responds to temperature in the firebox. I usually want to set-and-forget the air lever and I like the way I can turn the fire down early and then the EBT slowly closes decreasing total primary combustion air. Slamming the lever to factory full closed (20% I call it) with the EBT open on a cold fire still snuffs the flames in a hurry so modulation of the fire still takes time and attention. I have tried to recreate my run-away burns a couple of times by getting the firebox good and hot with a thick layer of bright orange coals and then filling the firebox with wood. Give the new fuel 10 minutes to start burning furiously and then shut the air lever - fire rapidly diminishes in a very controlled manner. When burning steadily I can modulate the air lever to give me nice slow flames with good secondary burning and a relatively long burn time. I like it. Now how much better is this than simply sticking a piece of high-temp foil tape over the EBT inlet hole? Probably not much. I did, and do, like fiddling for perhaps modest perceived gains. I care about keeping the flu clean and avoid smoldering fires so the ability to fine tune the burn is important to me. I can now load up a hot firebox and shortly thereafter go to bed confident that there will be warmth (not fire) and coals in the morning without any run-aways. The modified EBT does nothing to improve consumption of the coals at the end of burn - the firebox stays hot and keeps the valve closed long after the fire is done. Normal overnight air lever setting for me has been about 30%; never fully closed.

Ended up mounting the bi-metallic spring anchor at my initial new location close to the bottom of the EBT tray. Time consuming testing in my electronically controlled propane oven tells me that my EBT is fully closed at about 275*F. I placed the EBT on top of several slabs of soapstone to even out the temperature fluctuations of the oven. My IR thermometer works well on soapstone, not so much on the spring. I also did not care for the way PE clamped the end of the spring while also clamping the other end to the camshaft so I supplied my own 6-32 x 1 1/2" screw nutted tightly to the tray and used doubled nuts tightened against each other on the stud end allowing the end of the spring free orientation movement. Went back to original plan of allowing gravity to pull the flap open and using a link to pull it closed. The spring allows for overtravel of the camshaft. Enlarged the hole in the flap to allow a straight link considerable angulation without binding. If I ever come across a suitable small light tension coil spring I might replace the link. The EBT was cycled many times in use and in testing with the link always staying in the proper location on the cam lobe but I have tried to ensure that it stays there by adding two #4 brass washers, fastened with small drops of high temperature RTV, caging the end of the link. Pictures tell it better than I. Once I have sealed the very leaky outside combustion air duct (part #25, Quadrant Cover in my manual) to the bottom of the firebox and gasketed the air lever slot I do not want to have to make repairs. I like being able to see what is going on with the EBT using a mirror from below so I may install a glass window in the Quadrant Cover. I elevated the Summit Insert Series A about 1 3/4" above the hearth during the installation. Without that extra space this would not have been possible. The hole the old prefabbed steel fireplace left in the brick chimney is tall enough that I could have elevated the insert 12" above the hearth. Wish I had done that and will if I ever have to dismantle the current install. Once outside combustion air is back in use, the EBT tray will be bathed in air up to 60*F colder than room air. I am going to carve a chunk of 3" rockwool into a 1/2" thick insulation box for the spring end of the EBT tray in an attempt more closely couple the spring to internal firebox temperature. It will be difficult to slide the tray into position over the mount studs. The mount studs have been tack welded to the inside of the firebox to simplify R&R of the EBT.

My goal is to get sufficient steady heat out of the stove to keep me warm all night. I do not expect pine to burn all night long. It is nice to have plenty of hot coals in the morning for quick and easy re-loads. I like a clean window and flu. I think the fire should burn some from the back, not just from the front to the back; therefore it needs some primary combustion air in the back of the firebox. Maybe repurposing the EBT air is a future modification.

While in Denver last trip I visited a local store that sells soapstone (they list numerous locations in other cities) cut to order for DIY projects and purchased leftover countertop materiel scraps sufficient to fully line my firebox. I cut slabs to fit: One for each side, two for the split bottom, two for the back, two odd pieces to replace the insulation above the secondary air manifold, and four long skinny pieces to replace the insulation above the brick rails. A time consuming process but not costly. Used HF wet tile saw, a 7" diamond blade in a skillsaw and a HF masonry 4 1/2" grinding wheel to easily work the stone. Both of the water cooled diamond blades throw dirty water a long way so it is nice to have a reasonably warm day in the sun to do this, February is not optimum. Took me several days to develop techniques and production. After I had all of the pieces cut and test fitted I decided I had not allowed for enough thermal expansion and shortened all length/width dimensions to allow 1/8" to 3/16" clearance. Due to fumble fingers and cold wet hands I dropped several pieces. Soapstone is brittle. Hi-Temp Stove and Gasket Cement glued them back together and they remain intact although I do not see cracked pieces causing any problems unless they get knocked over.

The soapstone lined firebox takes noticeably longer to activate the thermal snap switch and turn on the fan than the poorly fitting light weight firebrick. The additional thermal mass, and perhaps longer burn times, keeps the fan running a lot (hours) longer than before and I do not notice the temperature spikes of pre-soapstone. I like it. Eagerly awaiting frigid temps next winter to try this out under demanding conditions and flu inspection next summer.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the update 1jmiii. I'll be curious to see how the soapstone works out for you.