Pellet Boiler Questions

[Mojo29]

Newbie here and was looking for any info on the Kedel or Blackstar pellet boilers. Was looking to buy one and have it installed. Also does anyone know if I can direct vent these in NJ? What are the spacing requirements for a chimney system or direct venting?

Is there anyone in NJ who can install a pellet boiler?

 

[TaylorIE]

Newbie here and was looking for any info on the Kedel or Blackstar pellet boilers. Was looking to buy one and have it installed. Also does anyone know if I can direct vent these in NJ? What are the spacing requirements for a chimney system or direct venting?

Is there anyone in NJ who can install a pellet boiler?

Hi Mojo29, my name is Taylor Lynn and I am the Sales and Dealer Relations Manager for Interphase Energy--exclusive importer of Kedel Pellet Boilers and I would be happy to speak with you more about Kedel. Kedel offers an advanced and economical alternative to fossil fuels without sacrificing the convenience, peace of mind and service customers want from their central heating system. With 88-90 percent combustion efficiency, the Kedel is extremely efficient. It is also smart and savvy, with built in web-enabled controllers that allow you to monitor boilers from just about anywhere. The Kedel is also modular, so it can be set up in a variety of sizes and pellet storage options. Our licensed dealers can get more into it, but chimney draft should be a min. 5 PA. and be stable. Direct venting is possible with the installation of a power venter (4" for our 54k and 102k BTU models, and 5" for our 170k BTU models). At the moment we do not have any authorized dealers in NJ, but we would like to and may be able to work something out. Please connect with me for further conversation ([email protected]). Thanks!

 

[Danni the Dane]

Hi "newbie" from another "newbie" on this site

Just to verify what Tayler writes regarding the pellet system from Kedel, the I can reccomend this setup/system. I have been useing pellet systems from Kedel (in Denmark, where it is produced, it is sold under another name, but still as Black star ank RTB models)

I have been using these systems for about 6 years in my own house and have about 10-11 years experience with it from my parents house as well, so I have some experience to give

If you consider to install a Kedel pellet boiler, please be adviced, that the RTB model from Kedel is STATE of THE ART and if the Black star model impress, please take your time to check out the RTB model. I Work alot away from home in long periods, and due to different reasons, I got a good offer on a RTB so I changed my normal model for an RTB and I have NOT regred this at any time. I started it up in october and I have only refilled pellets into it, and last week I emtied the ash tray (Space for ash for yet another month use) but I wanted to se the ash - I know "NERD"

Oh, One of the benifits with the Kedel brand is the easy to replace and low Price spare parts - it is constructed so function and Price walks "hand in hand" and many of these spareparts is possible to replace by the user when needed - this is my experience, and please note, I have not replaced any spareparts yet (well, One... but that was me trying to do something wrong )

I live en Europe, Denmark (origin country of this system) and I found this site today. I am a "bio energy nerd" and likes these online sites where discussions about bio energy lives - I use stokerforum.dk and stokerpro.dk (Danish forums) and one of the reasons I likes these forums is, that it gives a objektive user2user experience of the different brands and not only a seller's version of the product I hope Taylor agrees with my opinion given above when I write "5 out of 5 stars" for NBE Kedel series, and an extra star for the RTB to burst the scale

Sorry for my English

 

[Tennman]

From the hills of Tennessee.... a very big, welcome Danni. You are going to fit right in as a fellow bio energy nerd (used interchangeably with geek). Great review on the Kedel. Blessings

 

[DBNH22]

I don't have any experience with the Kedel other than contacting Jacob for a brief phone call when I initially started looking into the different pellet boilers. Jacob never called me back though.

I ended up buying a Windhager Biowin and I'd recommend it without reservation. Marc Caluwe is the American distributor and you might see him posting on here.

This is my second year with the Biowin and I'm happy with it. It cannot be direct vented though and I'm surprised that the Kedel can. My advice is to lay your eyes on the units in person before picking one. I would also not recommend buying a pellet boiler of any kind unless you plan on staying in your current home for at least 6-7 years because that seems to be the average minimum payback time.

Also look into federal and state programs to mitigate the cost of a pellet boiler.

best of luck.

 

[Danni the Dane]

I don't have any experience with the Kedel other than contacting Jacob for a brief phone call when I initially started looking into the different pellet boilers. Jacob never called me back though.

I ended up buying a Windhager Biowin and I'd recommend it without reservation. Marc Caluwe is the American distributor and you might see him posting on here.

This is my second year with the Biowin and I'm happy with it. It cannot be direct vented though and I'm surprised that the Kedel can. My advice is to lay your eyes on the units in person before picking one. I would also not recommend buying a pellet boiler of any kind unless you plan on staying in your current home for at least 6-7 years because that seems to be the average minimum payback time.

Also look into federal and state programs to mitigate the cost of a pellet boiler.

best of luck.

Quick question, the Biowin pellet boiler is, as I know it from other users on www.stokerpro.dk, an Austrian Top of the ART producer of pellet boilers (a quick note, Austria is the lead nation on quality pellet boilers) - but what is the unit cost for such boiler in the states?! In Denmark, where I am from, the unit price (without installation cost) is about x 2 / x 2,5 of the RTB boiler from NBE. So if the price range is about the same "over there," then I think a pay back period of 6-7 years is quite good. Our RTB (in general switch over from oil to pellets) had a paybacktime on 1½-2 years when going from the horrible boiler from 1965 (WTF) with a oil burner from the 1990s to a NBE KEDEL (in Denmark Scotte/Woody) pellet boiler.

One of the forces from NBE is the ability to be retrofitted into nearly all central heating systems, this is one of the pointers of their lead market placeing in Europe (+50000 unit sold). If interested, see these links for some inspirations (facebook site from the NBE production etc)

NBE productions:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/NBE-Production-AS/1448239495465585

The guys behind NBE productions (I have met the guys in person):

A "funny time laps video of an RTB installations from NBE productions made by Marvin/Gavin - cannot remember, but NBE US Marketing director)

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various video's from Jannik (Director of operation from NBE)
https://www.youtube.com/user/jannich11/videos?shelf_id=0&view=0&sort=dd

 

[DBNH22]

Danni:

With respect to the payback period, there are obviously a lot of different variables, cost of unit, cost of installation and ancillary materials/costs, costs of pellet fuel as opposed to alternative fuel in local area, size of home, level of air sealing insulation etc etc etc

Based on my experience I would tend to think that the average payback time for someone with an average home 1700- 2500 square foot would be about 6-9 years.

I don't want to quote exact numbers. I'll let the vendors do that. However I looked into Harmann, Windhager, Kedel, Frohling and Okofen before buying the Windhager and I can tell you that Harmann is the cheapest but not much cheaper than Windhager and Kedel which are fairly close together. I believe at the time the Windhager was slightly cheaper than the Kedel. Then you have the Frohlings and Okofens which are around double what the Kedels and Windhagers are.

In any event I saved a lot more last year than I am saving this year because this year pellet prices have gone up while oil has dropped sharply. Still saving though.

 

[Danni the Dane]

Danni:

With respect to the payback period, there are obviously a lot of different variables, cost of unit, cost of installation and ancillary materials/costs, costs of pellet fuel as opposed to alternative fuel in local area, size of home, level of air sealing insulation etc etc etc

Based on my experience I would tend to think that the average payback time for someone with an average home 1700- 2500 square foot would be about 6-9 years.

I don't want to quote exact numbers. I'll let the vendors do that. However I looked into Harmann, Windhager, Kedel, Frohling and Okofen before buying the Windhager and I can tell you that Harmann is the cheapest but not much cheaper than Windhager and Kedel which are fairly close together. I believe at the time the Windhager was slightly cheaper than the Kedel. Then you have the Frohlings and Okofens which are around double what the Kedels and Windhagers are.

In any event I saved a lot more last year than I am saving this year because this year pellet prices have gone up while oil has dropped sharply. Still saving though.

For starters, I wrote your payback time is quite good = My opinion is IT IS GOOD - in Denmark the payback on a Austrian State of the Art pellet boiler is about 7-9 years In my situation I came from a (SH***Y) old oil boiler and I made the RTB Installation myself = ChEaP and therefore short payback time with these two variables combined (old oilboiler + saved installation cost)

But okay, price range in the US and Europe varies - I can see you have a significant better warrenty from "KEDEL" in the US than we have on the same products in Europe (checked/googled it) but also, the Windhager is about double the price in Denmark - ALL Austrian Pellet boilers are EXPENSIVE in Denmark (Like our cars ). A quick note is, the Europe setup is a bit different regarding hopper system etc. so perhaps this plays a part in system costs

But yes, I am aware the instalation cost varies from house to house, that is why I ask for unit price isolated - this show what cost of unit is and for an respektive house, the installations cost lies within the same area for each type/brand of boiler (expected)

I have a 2590sf house, build in 1966, renovated climatescreen (heavely renovation) but I have an idea of the cost/benefit expectations for a oil/pellet switchover - for Denmark that is

What is the price for pellets in the US? in Denmark we pay about 1750-2000 Danish Kr for 896 kilograms (about 2 Danish kr / kilo gram = 0,36 USD / kilogram)

 

[DBNH22]

For starters, I wrote your payback time is quite good = My opinion is IT IS GOOD - in Denmark the payback on a Austrian State of the Art pellet boiler is about 7-9 years In my situation I came from a (SH***Y) old oil boiler and I made the RTB Installation myself = ChEaP and therefore short payback time with these two variables combined (old oilboiler + saved installation cost)

But okay, price range in the US and Europe varies - I can see you have a significant better warrenty from "KEDEL" in the US than we have on the same products in Europe (checked/googled it) but also, the Windhager is about double the price in Denmark - ALL Austrian Pellet boilers are EXPENSIVE in Denmark (Like our cars ). A quick note is, the Europe setup is a bit different regarding hopper system etc. so perhaps this plays a part in system costs

But yes, I am aware the instalation cost varies from house to house, that is why I ask for unit price isolated - this show what cost of unit is and for an respektive house, the installations cost lies within the same area for each type/brand of boiler (expected)

I have a 2590sf house, build in 1966, renovated climatescreen (heavely renovation) but I have an idea of the cost/benefit expectations for a oil/pellet switchover - for Denmark that is

What is the price for pellets in the US? in Denmark we pay about 1750-2000 Danish Kr for 896 kilograms (about 2 Danish kr / kilo gram = 0,36 USD / kilogram)

Don't quote me on it exactly but I believe the price on the Windhager Biowin base unit last year was around $8,000.00 US dollars.

Most of the pellets would fall in the price range of $240 - $320 USD per imperial ton/2000 pounds or 907kg.

From what I understand everything is more expensive in Europe though.

This is America though; where we eat our cheap Mcdonalds big macs, buy our cheap Chinese made plastic goods and sit on our obese asses watching vulgar American reality TV shows all night long until we die prematurely of heart disease.

 

[Danni the Dane]

A Windhager Biowin base unit for around 8000 USD is ½ price compared to Danish prices - WTF !! And the same price of an RTB in Denmark, hmm...!

Pellets is around the same price range and YUP in Denmark pretty much everything is expensive, but surely we have benefits from all the taxes

"This is America where we eat our cheap Mcdonalds big macs, buy our cheap Chinese made plastic goods and sit on our obese asses watching vulgar American reality TV shows all night long."

Just to make sure, your making a joke, right?! Surely you did not read any of my text in any way possible that way... right?! In my line of work, I meet alot of US guys (Afghanistan, Balkans, Baltic, Germany etc.) and you, as a people, as a nation, has my deepest respect!

 

[DBNH22]

A Windhager Biowin base unit for around 8000 USD is ½ price compared to Danish prices - WTF !! And the same price of an RTB in Denmark, hmm...!

Pellets is around the same price range and YUP in Denmark pretty much everything is expensive, but surely we have benefits from all the taxes

"This is America where we eat our cheap Mcdonalds big macs, buy our cheap Chinese made plastic goods and sit on our obese asses watching vulgar American reality TV shows all night long."

Just to make sure, your making a joke, right?! Surely you did not read any of my text in any way possible that way... right?! In my line of work, I meet alot of US guys (Afghanistan, Balkans, Baltic, Germany etc.) and you, as a people, as a nation, has my deepest respect!

Wow that is quite a price difference. I'd imagine that the European and American units are the exact same product with the exception of some power/voltage differences.


That was kind of a joke but not completely. I'm glad to hear that you have respect for this nation and it's people but there are those of us, native Americans, that have less and less respect for this nation and our fellow citizens each new day. I wasn't responding to anything you'd said, just offering my own opinion on the US.

 

[Danni the Dane]

Wow that is quite a price difference. I'd imagine that the European and American units are the exact same product with the exception of some power/voltage differences.


That was kind of a joke but not completely. I'm glad to hear that you have respect for this nation and it's people but there are those of us, native Americans, that have less and less respect for this nation and our fellow citizens each new day. I wasn't responding to anything you'd said, just offering my own opinion on the US.

In Denmark we, as the only country in Europe, has a government demand of boilers tested for standard EN303-5 Class 5, ALL other European countries has EN303-5 Class 3 - So, A Danish Bio Nerd cannot collect a boiler in another country due to a needed certificate of this EN standard - I guess this is one of the reasons why the Austrian Boilers are more expensive - no other options to get one And, as I wrote earlier, Austria is lead nation in quality pellet boilers!

Regarding the RTB, then NBE bought another Danish company that was about to close, startede the RTB production at this facility IN DENMARK, to save workplaces in our country - the RTB is 100 % produced in Denmark (sure, components for the production is imported - gearmotors, condensators) but steel production, design, assembly, test etc. - all DANISH... This is infact one of my reasons positivity for the product (sure, do not misunderstand me, the product it self is GREAT!) but the people behind, their intentions is right up my alley as a proud Dane - Danes takes care of each other, and when a Danish company lowers profit for benefit of jobs - I am hooked

Well, in Denmark we also has alot of problems with citizens, we have people who never had a job, but the tax in Denmark goes to social services to take care of the weak - the problems is, in Denmark som of the weak is in fact just lazy, and this makes it difficult for the true weak to get what they need because they do not have the energy to explain they are not the "lazy ones"!! (my personal opinion)... But every nation has its own issues I guess.

Back on track - sorry, do not want to f***k the thread up with all sorts of off topic text

Guys, the newbie thanks for a warm welcome on site - have a nice day, the time in Denmark is 21:10 (9pm) and the wife needs attention

 

[DBNH22]

Danni I'm trying to follow all of the acronyms you're using and I've had to google them.

So correct me if I'm wrong but NBE is a Danish pellet boiler company and the RTB is the ready to burn model that they make?

I see that it comes in 10, 16, 30 and 50kw units. Are they all the same unit with different settings for different output? The Windhager come sin a 21kw or 26kw. It's the same model you just configure a dip switch for the output that you want. I've always had mine set on 21kw and never had an issue.

What about the Kedel? I remember hearing something about it being Danish made but then I also remember someone saying something about Czech Republic.

I think Okofen and Frohling are also both Austrian. Am I correct? I know that Windhager has a presence in Austria, Germany, and the UK. Are there some brands that are more dominant in certain European nations?

 

[Danni the Dane]

Danni I'm trying to follow all of the acronyms you're using and I've had to google them.

So correct me if I'm wrong but NBE is a Danish pellet boiler company and the RTB is the ready to burn model that they make?

I see that it comes in 10, 16, 30 and 50kw units. Are they all the same unit with different settings for different output? The Windhager come sin a 21kw or 26kw. It's the same model you just configure a dip switch for the output that you want. I've always had mine set on 21kw and never had an issue.

What about the Kedel? I remember hearing something about it being Danish made but then I also remember someone saying something about Czech Republic.

I think Okofen and Frohling are also both Austrian. Am I correct? I know that Windhager has a presence in Austria, Germany, and the UK. Are there some brands that are more dominant in certain European nations?

Sorry, US/EN is not my native language (I guess it is obvious)

NBE = Danish Company, started by Kim Gregersen and Jannik Hansen
KEDEL = US Brand - in Denmark it is sold as Scotte or Woody, in Czech as OPOP etc.
Black Star boiler = NBE design, produced in Czech
External (big red) and Mini (small black) hopper = NBE design, produced in Czech
External Black Star auger = No idea
Pellet burner = Designed and produced in Denmark, developed in 1999 and advanced since then.
RTB boiler, hopper, auger etc = designed, produced in Denmark (new top line model - altso called Ready to burn)

I am not aware if NBE own OPOP in Czech which produce the Black Star boilers, but I am sure they have interest in the company for sure! but RTB production is all Danish!

Specs...

The Burner:
10kw = own size burner
16kw = settings for 16 and 20kw (24kw as well - more to this, old options, due to slightly different burner tray (option))
30kw = own size burner
50kw = own size burner

The Boiler:
10kw+16kw burner uses the Black Star 1016 boiler (BS1016) - different burner for 10kw and 16kw as I wrote above
20kw option (same burner as 16kw) it uses the Black star 2030 boiler
30kw bigger burner, but still the Black Star 2030 boiler
50kw bigger burner uses the Black Star 4050 boiler

there is also an 40kw option and also MUCH bigger options than 50kw - perhaps not testet/aproved in the US yet.

The RTB boiler:
10 and 16kw is the same boiler, only the burner is replaced
30kw is a bigger boiler

it is the combination with the burner area and boiler ability to use the amount of effect ind the "fire" that gives the different combinations. The "force" of NBE burner/boiler setup is the wide modulation due to the combination of internal and external auger and this, in theory, saves pellets.

NBE is the biggest European branch - meant, it has sold significant most boiler setups around europe. The Austrian brands are more "isolated" due to need of installer and service from installer - the whole initial idea of the Black star series was for DIY people, and the RTB for installer/service like the Austrian brands (well, I installed it myself and regulated it from the Oxygen sensor and ash)

The brands most Bio nerds in my forums talk about is NBE/Blackstar/RTB and MGM (google Slimpel) and som Swedish models (older Tech, but stabel) and the brands you mention - but due to prices of the brands you mention, not many in my forums has these - one of two users only.

 

[DBNH22]

Danni, if you're interested I created a post on here last year when my Windhager was installed. I included some pics that show the inside burn chamber, electronics etc etc

I'll find the link for you. it's an old post.

 

[DBNH22]

Here is the link to my Windhager install thread

 

[Danni the Dane]

Yes please, it would be very interesting in Denmark, and now it gets geeky, we invite people to come and look and our boiler setup - this way people can see the differnet brands, its +/- from end user - the user2user experience.. The Danes rides the green wave (haha) but it gives a better insight than the sales manager at the store

 

[Danni the Dane]

Here is the link to my Windhager install thread

Got it, and 'nuff said - 'it is one nice boiler! Funny like the RTB shares a similar design (ripoff well, the RTB is a ripoff, hehe)

is there any online service on it? I can view and control mine from abroad..

 

[DBNH22]

It seems that there a lot of people on this website that have very good things to say about both Kedel and Windhager but you don't see much on the Frohling and Okofen. I think that the Frohlings and Okofens are simply out of the price range of the average American middle class person.

I have had Windhager engineers from Austria at my home several time to check on my boiler. My experience with Windhager and Marc, the American distributor has been very impressive. They truly stand behind their product.

The only brand I didn't like when I looked into the boilers was the Harmann. The pb105 is their pellet boiler. they are traditionally a stove company and the quality of build between the pb105 and the Biowin was like night and day. I've also heard that the pb105 has had issues with the burn pot bubbling.

 

[DBNH22]

As far as I know there is no online control option with the Windhager but you'd have to ask Marc to be sure.

In all honesty though how often are you going to remotely access your boiler to change the settings?

With any boiler from any manufacturer you can always tie into an IP based thermostat and change the temp on the fly. That is the only thing I would see needing to mess with on a daily basis.

 

[Danni the Dane]

Windhager is, and no doubt about this, a high end product - Engineers from Austria in your home for inspection - hearts and minds, thumbs up from me!

If you want to, then you can see the two Bio "geeks" that started NBE and their intentions in this video:

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Well, the online part is infact a big deal for me - NBE has something called Cloud service - a group of software ingeneers from development monitors the online connected boilers and reacts if any problem shows up - corrects it online or offer solutions with service personel on site. I am away from home alot, and often 6-7 month, I like to logon and check everything is okay, but this is more a nice thing, it is the surveillance I like the most.

Windhager has (perhaps had) a side production of their pelletboiler i germany named Veissmann Voglio (Spelling?), but it was the same boiler under another brand and about 30% less price in germany = 50-60% less than in Denmark... At that time I tried to get one of those.... So, I know it is a great boiler you have

 

[DBNH22]

Windhager is, and no doubt about this, a high end product - Engineers from Austria in your home for inspection - hearts and minds, thumbs up from me!

If you want to, then you can see the two Bio "geeks" that started NBE and their intentions in this video:

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Accept third party cookies

Well, the online part is infact a big deal for me - NBE has something called Cloud service - a group of software ingeneers from development monitors the online connected boilers and reacts if any problem shows up - corrects it online or offer solutions with service personel on site. I am away from home alot, and often 6-7 month, I like to logon and check everything is okay, but this is more a nice thing, it is the surveillance I like the most.

Windhager has (perhaps had) a side production of their pelletboiler i germany named Veissmann Voglio (Spelling?), but it was the same boiler under another brand and about 30% less price in germany = 50-60% less than in Denmark... At that time I tried to get one of those.... So, I know it is a great boiler you have

It's nice that a unit can be diagnosed online but I look at it this way: if the product is well built all around, software, electrical, mechanical etc etc then there shouldn't be any problems

 

[Danni the Dane]

well true - but to please my OCD and paranoia, it works quite well at this controlfreak is a work habit, cannot help it

edit: my parents NBE pellet burner from 2000 has burned 70 tons of pellets with only one electric igniter changed - and that is all in 15 years - guess that is okay build

 

[DBNH22]

well true - but to please my OCD and paranoia, it works quite well at this controlfreak is a work habit, cannot help it

edit: my parents NBE pellet burner from 2000 has burned 70 tons of pellets with only one electric igniter changed - and that is all in 15 years - guess that is okay build

By the end of this season, my second with the Windhager, I will have burned about 12 US tons of pellets. I estimate that I will have saved around $3000 USD over oil in the last two seasons.

So what is the American warranty on the Kedels as opposed to the European warranty?

 

[Danni the Dane]

a sawing of 3000 USD quite good i think

Kedel, in the states, gives 30 year warrenty on the boiler vessel - in Denmark 24 month warrenty... A bit different I will say why, I do not know - perhaps to get market share in a advancing market in the states