Pellet Stove vs. N.G. (not worth it??)

[jayheel]

After doing some research and looking at past heating bills and comparing it to the price of pellets in my area plus use of electricity it appears to me that burning pellets in NOT the way to go (this is for my particular situation not everyones)

I've attached(see attachement) my last 3 years of N.G. bills and maybe someone with better knowledge can prove me wrong. But I have found I spend an average of 900 year in gas (about $20 a month(see june, july and august) for hot water and cooking = 240 year) the rest is for heat about 660.

Now if pellets are 160 a ton (good price for western michigan) and I'll need roughly 4 tons = 640. So it's $20 cheaper

Except it costs (from what the dealer said) 15-20 in electric to run the pellet stove. So we'll take 17x5 = $85 *5 is the number of heating months
add that to the price of pellets it's actually MORE to run heat with pellets than with N.G.

again I'm not a mathmatician and I may have missed something but there is no way the stove will pay for itself in 3-5 years.

someone please prove me wrong I really want a stove!

 

[Gunner]

You are right NG is hard to beat. Elec, propane or oil maybe but not NG.
I have NG forced air, if I had to buy cordwood it would be a wash, but since I can get it for free I save a bit. I burn wood because I like to, not to save 800 bucks a year.

 

[jayheel]

sorry the attachment didn't work

2005 2006 2007(so far)
771 ccf 674ccf 533 ccf
$879 $900 $606

 

[jayheel]

I know that's the problem I need to rationalize the price of a stove, pellet or regular, to my wife

I would prefer not to be dependent on the oil or natural gas companies, I wish there was away to get started heating with pellet or wood without the large start up cost i.e. buying stove, pipe, installation

guess I'll keep looking

 

[Shane]

If money savings are what your after then go with a wood stove. Englander & Century are two decent big box brands that offer good quality (Englander is heavier gauge construction when compared to Century) The chimney expense is there no matter what. Another way to look at it is what is the independence from oil worth to you? Is it worth a little more money and/or a little more work? Also consider that wood prices tend not to be as tumultuous (is that how you spell that?) as the NG prices can be and usually for the dedicated burner the wood is "free" because they harvest their own.

 

[jayheel]

Thanks for the advice Shane
I agree and Yes, I'm looking at savings in the example but I would like to free from the change in pricing of N.G. it's only going to go up. My problem is rationalizing the initial price of a stove and the fact that most of the dealers have quoted me "3-5 years to recover cost and then it saves you money"

 

[webbie]

From an economic stand point only, it would be hard to justify just about any stove - and it is REALLY hard to justify my long walks and bike rides. They cost me time, and therefore money.

You are correct that it would be really tough in many areas for Pellets to beat natural gas....even BTU for BTU, let alone a lot of extra that is going to pay back the interest on $4,000, plus the yearly service, your labor and the eventual (10 years?) replacement of the stove.

But the same could be said about many of our actions - our furniture, ipods, cable TV, food (we don't have 50 Lb bags of rice and beans in OUR pantry)...

Forgive me, I'm reading Thoreau right now!

Point is, if you want a Pellet stove, and it is OK with the other 1/2, you should get one! You don't have to use it full time - burn one ton a year. Look at it as a fireplace, as a backup (get one that works on DC also....or have a battery and inverter or generator handy).....

Also remember that Space Heat saves over Central Heat. So a freestanding NG stove may provide the benefit (a fire) you want, also a backup that does not need electric.....or make the amount of noise that a pellet stove does.

Also remember that corn can be used in many pellet stoves - as well as current and future biomass products. You might like the idea of that. Certainly, it usually (except in case of having lots of free wood) costs MORE to go green. Organic fruits and veggies cost more - so does fair trade coffee.

I guess you get the point. Anyone who does the math would agree that $ for $ you are not going to MAKE MONEY with a pellet stove (right now). But whether or not you decide on one may have more than that in the equation.

 

[Shane]

I burn a pellet stove. Save a little bit over electric baseboard heat, but the radiant heat projected from the pellet stove would be worth a little more to me. The pyromaniac in me wishes I had not swithced to pellets, but the lazy guy in me is happy. 3-5 years return on a wood stove is reasonable to expect. Another consideration is that you may be able to add value to your home with the addition of a stove. Not enough to "pay" for it but some value nonetheless. You can add all of this up and come up with a good arguement for a stove.

 

[jjbaer]

After doing some research and looking at past heating bills and comparing it to the price of pellets in my area plus use of electricity it appears to me that burning pellets in NOT the way to go (this is for my particular situation not everyones)

I've attached(see attachement) my last 3 years of N.G. bills and maybe someone with better knowledge can prove me wrong. But I have found I spend an average of 900 year in gas (about $20 a month(see june, july and august) for hot water and cooking = 240 year) the rest is for heat about 660.

Now if pellets are 160 a ton (good price for western michigan) and I'll need roughly 4 tons = 640. So it's $20 cheaper

Except it costs (from what the dealer said) 15-20 in electric to run the pellet stove. So we'll take 17x5 = $85 *5 is the number of heating months
add that to the price of pellets it's actually MORE to run heat with pellets than with N.G.

again I'm not a mathmatician and I may have missed something but there is no way the stove will pay for itself in 3-5 years.

someone please prove me wrong I really want a stove!

You missed one point: you estimated electric cost for the pellet stove but left out electric for the NG furnace...unless you have a DC variable speed motor on your NG furnace, it will cost you about $25/month in winter just to run the furnace blower................so $25 x 5 heating months = $125. Now you have this:

pellets: $640 for fuel + $85 for electricity = $725

NG: $660 for NG + $125 for electric = $785

 

[Metal]

I hope no one ever asks me to explain my return on investment for my lawn : )

 

[jayheel]

Craig,

Don't get me wrong I want to BURN Stuff! maybe it's a guy thing, but I also want to make an informed decision and many of the dealers(not all) have shared somewhat sketchy info. with me I feel. If I'm going to burn stuff it might as well be helping with our heating bill and keep us a little warmer. I just need a better argument for the wife.

sincerely,
going to buy a stove.......


someday

 

[jayheel]

I hope no one ever asks me to explain my return on investment for my lawn : )

Nice

I guess there's lot's of things I don't want asked about return value.


Also to the point about the furnace blower using electric.... I never thought about that and it's true nice job

but I am guessing from reading other posts I'll be looking into running ceiling, box fans etc. to help move the air around the home so maybe some electric will be picked back up there

thanks

 

[webbie]

I think most of us are at the point where we can truly say that $10 or $20 a month will not make a difference - I may be wrong, but just the cost of modern life (property taxes, Starbucks, etc.) blows away these numbers!

Your point stands in that the $ to $ is close to your calcs - and, when you consider that dealers (and just about anyone else, including your gas utility) are SELLING and MARKETING something, they are not about to tell you the utter truth (like in that movie when the guy could only tell the truth!)....

Yeah, Metal - now my wife wants to keep our lawn so deep that the dog cannot walk on it - AND, even though we have a giant lawn, she wants me to take our 15 pound foo-foo somewhere else to PEE.

I tell her - that's what a lawn in for - heck, if the dog can't romp there and pee there????? Well, you know what the (unspoken) answer is - "The lawn is for her and other people to look at"....heck with actually using it!

 

[KeithO]

Jay: For a little work, wood is the way to go. Plate steel stoves are available for $700 upwards. Nice cast iron stoves $1200 upwards (Jotul 3CB). They need no electricity and have no noisy blowers. I have scrounged close to 3 cord of wood completely free since last Xmas other than a gallon of pre-mix and a quart of chain lube oil. If you take a good look around the neighborhood for small scale sawmills, they always have slabwood which they would love to get rid of for a nominal fee. There is one close to my office that wants $10/trailer load to cover loading. Most of the neighbors in the past paid up to $2000 to have a problem tree removed and now they always ask me first. In some cases we may rent a cherry picker together to take care of some more difficult cases (about 3 BIG trees in one neighbors property) and share the costs. Renting the cherrypicker may cost $250 but my share may be $125 and I may get 3-6 cord of wood as a result (some of the trees are close to 28" diameter and maybe more. And the neighbor avoids the $2000 tree-man bill.

I don't have a splitter, so I do it the old fashioned way with a Swedish splitting axe and trust me, I need the exercise. Occasionally I run into some incredibly tough wood, in which case I lust after a big splitter, but so far I have completely avoided further investment. I just bought the new woodstove (Jotul 7110) for $1800 and expect to recover at least half of that investment this season, primarily because I don't have enough wood to burn 24/7. Of course it also depends on the kind of winter we have. Some of my work collegues took the plunge and got splitters and their bucking and splitting only takes them 2 weekends of work in spring or late winter. Winter is in fact the ideal time to identify and cut trees, since one can actually see something in them woods.

For me this is a one way ticket. There is no way I am going to be held ransom by the utility companies and a further point is the fact that our utilities always go out a few times in winter for a couple of days (at least). I have no intention of being forced to run the generator 16 hours a day just to avoid freezing.

Last year I went with a corn stove, right before the corn price doubled and discovered to my dismay that with that concept one is still completely reliant on the grid being operational to have heat. The inverter style backup systems are available, but they cost quite a bit in addition and don't last forever (the batteries). My site is not suited to solar due to me being on a north facing slope with high trees on 4 sides.

 

[Tom D]

i agree with these other members,i purchased a harman pellet stove this year and love it so far.i spent about 4000 dollars installed.
alot of money but i always wanted a gas fireplace but then i started looking at pellet stoves and my wife loved the wood heat.
i know i wouldnt pay the stove off in fuel costs but i would rather give the money to the guys and gals that are working hard
just to make a living and not give my money to the gas company.as far as saving money with a pellet stove i will let you no
in the spring,i know a few people at work who has pellet stoves and they tell me the save at least a third over natural gas.
some have told me at 150 dollars a ton they have saved half in fuel costs,but one thing is for sure we are staying warmer with
nice wood heat.

 

[jayheel]

Keith I think that I would be more apt to jump on the wood stove if I didn't have to go up two stories with pipe! There is less pipe and less involvement in getting pellet stove installed. I did look at the stoves you suggested at the local dealer and online (they're tempting)


Misty, out of curiosity which harman stove did you purchase? and my wife liked the fact we would be WARMER

 

[MrWinkey]

I took the plunge last year.

Bought a Harman P-68. w/ self install the price was about the same.

Before I heated with wood so no savings and if anything pellets are more cost but.....

House is ALWAYS at 75 in the main room and 70 in the surrounding rooms. When heating with the Fisher it was always too hot or too cold. Nobody around all day long anymore to stoke the fire. We most likely break even on cost. Eletric heat turned on to 55 deg is about the same for us as pellets keeping the house @ 70

Good luck!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

The woodstove in my house heats where my family congregates... In my back room and kitchen. The rest of my house can drop to 55 and the ever cold wife does not care. Allowing the house to stay cool while the family is warm is where you save. Some heat their entire house with wood. I heat the family areas and keep the sleeping areas and the other areas of the house we don't use cool.

I save the most on the sholder seasons. Spring and Fall where the stove takes the chill off and I don't have to fire up the furnace.

I scrounge my wood so it saves a bit there too.

Matt

 

[jayheel]

After reading the post from Rod in oakhurst, ca https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/8831/

I'm definately buying a pellet stove

Now I just need to find the right one, We've liked the Harman Accent anyone have experience with it? or would we be paying too much for the harman name?

 

[Tom D]

This is Misty's wife we bought the Harman XXV and I love it The heat is warm and feels so nice compared to the natural gas heat.

 

[jayheel]

Glad you like it! We saw one of those at the local dealers it's nice. It's one of our options but leaning towards the accent b/c of the size. Enjoy your heat

 

[webbie]

Maybe Harmans can be had at a discount because of the situation......then being bought out a couple weeks ago. And, although I do not anticipate big changes in the Harman brand or dealers, you do have to take the current "fluid" situation into account when buying a stove. Example: Earth Stove and some other brands have actually been "retired" by the big companies that bought them.

Again, Harman would seem to be too big of a seller to do this with - then again, who would have guessed that they would have been "forced" to sell due to financial problems.

Until we get actual announcements and word from HHT (the buyer), it would be safe to say that a buyer should take this into account (in a small way, or big way, depending on their outlook).

BTW, years ago - during one of the times when VC was in trouble, they gave us dealers fantastic prices on existing inventory. Even this year, Quadrafire and perhaps others offered incentives.

Hopefully, some Harman dealers will be able to fill us in on whether they have received any additional news (after the sale notice).

 

[jayheel]

Bought out?? Financial problems?? was it by another stove company?
I was under the imprecation they were a good company.
Thanks for the heads up though as I continue my quest to find my heat source

 

[webbie]

"Dauphin County based Harman Stove has announced it is being sold.
The company which has its headquarters outside Halifax is being sold to Hearth and Home Technologies.
Harman decided to sell after poor sales last year left them in major financial distress."

Do a google news search on Harman stoves.......the words above are quotes, not my words. Bottom line is that Dane was forced to sell under unfavorable circumstances, and new company did not even assume debt....in other words (nicely), Dane is still on the hook to the vendors.

This is the biggest single event in the history of Harman Stove, so I only thought you should know - knowledge is power.

 

[jjbaer]

I hope no one ever asks me to explain my return on investment for my lawn : )

Nice

I guess there's lot's of things I don't want asked about return value.


Also to the point about the furnace blower using electric.... I never thought about that and it's true nice job

but I am guessing from reading other posts I'll be looking into running ceiling, box fans etc. to help move the air around the home so maybe some electric will be picked back up there

thanks

Good pick up on your part....even with a pellet stove you might also be running the furnace blower to circulate air......which raises the cost of the pellet stove to about equal with that of the NG unit. Let's face it, unless you get your own fuel source (free wood) the return on investment is hard to beat when comparing most anything (except a wood burner) against a NG unit you already own. If you want a pellet stove, I say get it and the hell with ROI. A pellet stove gives you a supplemental heat source in case the NG unit goes tango uniform and you can use one vs the other depending on fuel cost and it sounds like you want the convenience of pellets.