Possible Issues With Replacing Baseboard Emitters?

[velvetfoot]

I was thinking of replacing the baseboard emitters on the second floor with Heating Edge units of identical size with the eye towards operating generally at a lower temperature for a future bio source, and more efficiency and faster response from setback (on oil currently). There are two zones, upstairs and downstairs, 1000 ft2 each, well insulated. I am assuming they are piped serially.

What would the issues I might run in to, other than burning down the house while sweating pipe and paying for the things?

 

[Eric Johnson]

Use the faceplates from the old baseboards to shield the woodwork on your baseboards and floors from the flame. I recently pulled some baseboards out of my Mom's kitchen and replaced them with a cast iron rad. I did have problems getting them to come apart at the joints, for some reason, so I wound up cutting most of them out. But sweating in the new connections is no problem with the right kind of shielding. Other than that, I don't think you should encounter anything other than the usual little headaches--you know, pipe ends dropping down into the hole after you cut them loose, etc.

 

[velvetfoot]

That's a good idea about the faceplates. I do have a fair amount of leftover Micore that could be used as a shield too.
I too have had problems removing pipe from a fitting, despite putting a lot of heat on it. I'm just not sure how room there is to play with - have to take a look.
I also would't want do have to dig around through the wall below to get at something.

 

[Bob Rohr]

That's a good idea about the faceplates. I do have a fair amount of leftover Micore that could be used as a shield too.
I too have had problems removing pipe from a fitting, despite putting a lot of heat on it. I'm just not sure how room there is to play with - have to take a look.
I also would't want do have to dig around through the wall below to get at something.

Make sure the tube spacing from the wall to tube center is correct for the new baseboard. Often there is not much movement front to back in the hole. There are some spray fluids that you might spray down the copper in the hole to prevent un-soldering the next fitting down, copper tube really conducts heat. Keep a fire extinguisher handy.

Maybe rent or borrow an electric soldering tool, looks like a mini electric welder. Clamp on the copper tube near the floor, and back the element a ways for a safe, flame free soldering experience.

 

[velvetfoot]

Those are some good tips. When it was installed during the house construction, likely there was more access for the plumber.

 

[Rob186]

The reason you are having trouble removing fitting is you are most likely putting too much heat on them once you over heat the fittings they are hard to remove a little trick is to put flux on the joint befor you heat it up and write after the solder starts to melt if you are not familiar with taking solder joints apart replacing baseboard cant be ferry hard and with the limited space and pipe their is little to no room for error

Another trick is to put a wrench or vise grip on the pipe bellow to act as a heat sink and stop the heat from moving to the next joint

 

[velvetfoot]

Thanks. It sounds like it could be pretty hard for me to do without screwing up. There's no room for error, and when error is made, stuff like cutting holes in drywall has to be done to make it right.

 

[tom in maine]

New emitters in the same size case might not be that much of an improvement.
A lot of the performance in HWBB is the height of the case. You can improve the output (including low temperature output) by making a
new case that is taller. HWBB work by convection and the chimney effect of a taller case will improve overall performance.

When I converted our heating system to an unpressurized loop, circulating tank water directly through my radiant systems, I had one loop that had a
steel radiant panel. I had the option of keeping it and treating the tank water with corrosion inhibitor or doing something different.
I made a small HWBB convector using some Petit 7 fintube (pretty low output stuff) and building a wooden enclosure to enhance the chimney effect.

I would love to lay claim to the concept, but Dick Hill told me that he had students testing the concept in ME labs. There was no limit to how tall they could make the housing and get more heat out.
I have used this concept a few times and it does work well. And you can get creative with fancy covers, not just steel.

 

[BoilerMan]

Something I'd recomend is blowing out the loop with compressed air. In the basement turn off the ball valves that serve the loop you wish to convert, and cut/open valve to have free flowing from start to finish fot he loop ie. supply and return open. Apply your blow gun from an air compressor and attach a hose to the other pipe to direct the air and water out a window or down a drain. Force as much water out of the loop as possible before opening anything up and you will enjoy much cleaner work as well no black water spots on drywall, and ease of soldering everything back up. Blow air through the loop for at least 3 minutes letting the compressor catch up periodically.


I made this little apparatus to pressure test hydronic systems before comissioning. Basically before you fill the system or loop isolate it from the system, and connect this to the drain/purge valve, and the other end is a quick-connect for the aire compressor with a needle valve. Fill the system to the desired gauge reading and leave it for at least 24 hours. Listen for leaks throughout the house and resolder/ retest as needed. Much easier than dealing with water in the system. For slow leaks which can't be heared, like threaded connections, a spray bottle of soap and water works wonders.

TS

 

[mikefrommaine]

New emitters in the same size case might not be that much of an improvement.
A lot of the performance in HWBB is the height of the case. You can improve the output (including low temperature output) by making a
new case that is taller. HWBB work by convection and the chimney effect of a taller case will improve overall performance.

When I converted our heating system to an unpressurized loop, circulating tank water directly through my radiant systems, I had one loop that had a
steel radiant panel. I had the option of keeping it and treating the tank water with corrosion inhibitor or doing something different.
I made a small HWBB convector using some Petit 7 fintube (pretty low output stuff) and building a wooden enclosure to enhance the chimney effect.

I would love to lay claim to the concept, but Dick Hill told me that he had students testing the concept in ME labs. There was no limit to how tall they could make the housing and get more heat out.
I have used this concept a few times and it does work well. And you can get creative with fancy covers, not just steel.

Jaga offers add on low voltage fans to boost the output on their panel rads. Would be great if something could be added on to existing hwbb to boost output at low temps.


(broken link removed to http://jaga-na.dtstest.nl/sites/default/files/pdf-upload/DBE_algemeen_USA_CA.pdf)
(broken link removed to http://jaga-na.dtstest.nl/en/product/dynamic-boost-effect)

 

[velvetfoot]

Thanks for the ideas. I blow out an outside line every fall, so that rig looks a little familiar.
Going on that jaga web site, the different styles in radiators available are truly amazing.
Maybe a higher cover could be found - maybe even high enough for another fin/tube section, of less expensive make.

 

[mikefrommaine]

It looks like the jaga dbe uses computer case fans which are cheap. The smallest standard cooling fan has a case size of 80 mm or 3.14 inches x 1 inch tall. On my existing baseboard there is a 2.5 x2.5 open area above the element without modifying the enclosure

I'm thinking a fan every 12" or so above the element controlled by a thermal snap switch could be a cheap way to boost the output of existing hwbb.

I might pick up a fan and see how it fits. Might be able to shave a little plastic of the case fan.

 

[mikefrommaine]

Actually after a little searching case fans are available in 60,50 or 40 mm case sizes.

(broken link removed to http://www.directron.com/50mmfans.html)

I'm going to order some and mount them above the element and see what kind of difference they make. I have a room that cant keep up the temp on cold nights even with 170-80 water temps.