I am almost sure it is a faulty thermo, and have to get another more reliable one. I have never done a kiln dried wood test. Not really sure where to even buy some.
Problems with new Jotul C550
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I am almost sure it is a faulty thermo, and have to get another more reliable one. I have never done a kiln dried wood test. Not really sure where to even buy some.
Thanks for this, but last summer, I put into my house over 5k worth of energy efficiency systems and upgrades dealing with insulation, sealing off areas where air leaks occur, upgrading windows, and more. My house is as best as it can be right now.
After 3+ years my folks are giving up on their 550. For a "big" insert it's just not that big.
Soundchasm
Minister of Fire
You've literally done your best so this must be doubly frustrating. I forgot to mention (getting back to being off-topic), that the scholarly geo-thermal article concluded there was no reason for a residence to go with geo-thermal considering the low cost of mini-split systems. I know they're not a single-digit temp solution, but the reason we're all here is that there must be more than one way to skin a cat (staying warm w/o going broke).
I have been minding the thermometer more this week as initially suggested by rkofler several pages back. The insert gets up to somewhere between 400 and almost 600. Now, here is my new question. The fan kicks on and the temp on the thermometer goes way down to something like 300 or less. Am I not supposed to run the fan? That is counter productive since I need all that hot to be pushed out of the room and to the rest of the house.
The other thing...I was so fed up last weekend that I called Jotul N.A. in Maine and I got to vent out my complaints to someone there. He was on it, and said he wants to see this through and make it successful. I got the name and number of the Jotul rep here in Michigan. Called him up and left a VM, including what has been going on since he came out a year ago and gave all this reasoning as to why it wasn't performing. I never got a return call. What I did get, a couple of days later, was an email from the owner of the business I bought this pile of garbage from. When asked why the rep didn't contact me, since I have no beef with that business, I was told that is not how they handle these things, and not the way the rep and company works. I called the rep and spoke with him directly, asking why he never returned my call and I have to get an email and set up an appt a MONTH from now, and his response was that I bought the insert from the business and he wants them involved since they are the dealer. And that is not how they operate. Even when I said if I wanted to involve the business, I would have called them, not him. But again, the business is the dealer and they should be the one's handling this, so to speak. The rep is sure there is NOTHING wrong with the insert based on my description of what is happening and the methods I am using, so my thoughts are this is one of those "operator error" things once again, and I will just have to live with a substandard insert that never has lived up to its billing. I am really tired of hearing how this Jotul C550 is the best selling unit they make. My response is so what...it is not working for me. And the other thing I am tired of hearing from these guys is that the Jotul C550 should be cooking me out of my house, etc. with the way everything is set up and the size of my house, etc.
Is this standard operating procedure from Jotul reps and the home Jotul N.A. headquarters to not get back with the customer who is having such issues with one of there products? I have never been in a situation such as this where a product I have purchase is such a pile of junk and contacting everyone up the chain just does not respond with customer service. Am I missing something here? Especially since I have been so vocal to all parties that this unit is not working and is substandard.
The other thing...I was so fed up last weekend that I called Jotul N.A. in Maine and I got to vent out my complaints to someone there. He was on it, and said he wants to see this through and make it successful. I got the name and number of the Jotul rep here in Michigan. Called him up and left a VM, including what has been going on since he came out a year ago and gave all this reasoning as to why it wasn't performing. I never got a return call. What I did get, a couple of days later, was an email from the owner of the business I bought this pile of garbage from. When asked why the rep didn't contact me, since I have no beef with that business, I was told that is not how they handle these things, and not the way the rep and company works. I called the rep and spoke with him directly, asking why he never returned my call and I have to get an email and set up an appt a MONTH from now, and his response was that I bought the insert from the business and he wants them involved since they are the dealer. And that is not how they operate. Even when I said if I wanted to involve the business, I would have called them, not him. But again, the business is the dealer and they should be the one's handling this, so to speak. The rep is sure there is NOTHING wrong with the insert based on my description of what is happening and the methods I am using, so my thoughts are this is one of those "operator error" things once again, and I will just have to live with a substandard insert that never has lived up to its billing. I am really tired of hearing how this Jotul C550 is the best selling unit they make. My response is so what...it is not working for me. And the other thing I am tired of hearing from these guys is that the Jotul C550 should be cooking me out of my house, etc. with the way everything is set up and the size of my house, etc.
Is this standard operating procedure from Jotul reps and the home Jotul N.A. headquarters to not get back with the customer who is having such issues with one of there products? I have never been in a situation such as this where a product I have purchase is such a pile of junk and contacting everyone up the chain just does not respond with customer service. Am I missing something here? Especially since I have been so vocal to all parties that this unit is not working and is substandard.
rkofler
Burning Hunk
BIG difference between 400 and 600 degrees. I don't run fan at high speed until temp is more like 700. Run fan on low while temp is building. If you can't achieve 700 then I suspect your fuel. Get a nice, hot coal bed, load in some good fuel. Air fully open for about 20 minutes, leave door closed. After 20 min with good, close air a quarter. Another 10 min or so, close halfway. Temp should be rising by now. If it's not, again, I would question your wood. Especially since you mention keeping door open for so long. I never leave open for more than a minute or so. If you are having to leave door open for longer than that to maintain flame, your wood is no good.
Earlier in burn season, I was keeping door cracked open for a while, but based on what you have advised, and others, I no longer do that, nor do I need to do that. I have been following the EXACT procedure what you are mentioning here since at least the beginning of December or whenever I initially posted this season. I have never been able to achieve 700. It is NOT, I repeat NOT the wood/fuel I am burning. That has been gone over time and time again, and the wood/fuel I am using is NOT what is causing all these issues. I even had to buy a couple of face cords over the last 4-6 weeks since I couldn't get to my outside wood stack due to all the snow. And that seller's wood is more than stellar, with a very large percentage of his almost 1000 full cord stored inside a huge pole barn. And the wood of my own I have used this season was stacked inside my garage since mid/end of June 2013. Before that, it was outside along my garage covered.
This thing is garbage and for example, since 9 AM, my house has gone from 59 to 66, and it is now almost 1:30! But I will try running the fan on low when it kicks on due to temp in the insert for a while and see if I can build temp even more, and go from there.
If I let the house get so cold it would take hours for our stove to bring it up to temp. That's because one is not just heating the air, but the mass of the house and its contents too. Try burning 24/7 so that in the morning you are bringing the house temp from 66 to 74.
I DO burn 24/7! This was just one of those unusual mornings where temps dipped below 60-62. I have run my furnace this year more than I have in the past 5 altogether for this VERY reason...to make sure the entire mass of my house is warm so this piece of worthless garbage of an insert has some sort of chance to do what it is intended to do.
And my house temp will rarely exceed 68, even when it is above 30 outside like it has been lately, and the sun shining, making some passive solar heat. Usually, later in the day, the house temp rises into the low 70s due to outside temp almost to 40 or above and it has been sunny all day. But that is not the insert making it happen.
Now, would someone answer my question regarding standard customer service operating procedure of Jotul rep?
The house sounds like it is not holding the heat. It sounds like a record cold winter, particularly in MI is finding this weakness. I feel for you, this has been a brutal winter for the midwest. Perhaps the stove is not garbage, it's just not able to keep up with the heat loss of the house? It is standard customer service for most stove manufacturers to want the dealer to deal with product issues.
I would accept that about the house but I just dumped over 5k into home energy improvements last summer with insulation, foam around the basement footing, sealing off windows, etc. new and added roof and ridge vents, and more. So that is not it either. I have already gone through this and discussed this at length on this thread at various points during this burning season. This house holds heat more than it ever did over the last 15 years or so. Can't imagine what it would have been like this winter had I not done all that energy work. Insert is a pile of garbage. I have done absolutely EVERYTHING suggested and advised by folks here on this thread, as well as rep when he came out near the end of last April to check out what may be happening. There is very little, if any improvement. Otherwise, I wouldn't be complaining so bitterly.
Thanks for the response about the reps from the stove manufacturers.
That's got to be very frustrating. I'm wondering if the new roof vents are creating a negative pressure in the house. Are there a lot of recessed can lights or other penetrations in ceilings? Attic door?
What are your choices now? Would the dealer consider taking back the insert on a trade? Do they sell any alternative that would work better for you?
What are your choices now? Would the dealer consider taking back the insert on a trade? Do they sell any alternative that would work better for you?
I have no clue. I just don't understand why I need to wait three weeks to get some customer service, especially since I have been doing nothing but working at this so hard to make this thing perform up to its standards.
My immediate guess is that we would have to go through this insert to find out exactly why it is underachieving so much.
rkofler
Burning Hunk
How are you loading the stove? Is it packed full? Maybe some pictures or videos would help the experts here? Take a pic of your coal bed, then a picture of a loaded stove, then a pic of some secondaries. Are you seeing secondaries? Once this thing gets going those pipes up top should look like flame throwers. I understand your frustration, but please recognize that there are MANY that are heating their homes quite well with this unit. We just have to figure out what is different about your setup. I just have a hard time accepting that it is the stove itself. I have a 2300 sq. ft ranch and have only burned about 250 gallons of heating oil this brutal winter, and house is typically above 70. Probably would have burned at least 800 gallons without insert. Not trying to minimize your situation, just saying the unit is capable.
jatoxico
Minister of Fire
A2 there are some questions I still have not heard ans to.1) are you able to get good secondary burn (gates of hell) or not? 2) did you get a new thermo? If you are not able to get 700 it needs to determined whether or not it's a true reading.
If it's a true reading and you can't get to 700 even for a short time there really isn't too many things it could be. Either operator error, poor fuel, maybe bad draft. As an example I am into burning some marginal wood since I'm close to out. I tossed in a big ugly of 1.5 yr old oak yesterday w/ some other so so stuff. It burned OK but had to keep the air up higher than usual, got almost no secondary burn and barely broke 400 degrees. Fine for chilly 40 degree day but would have had 750 and the air closed if wood was the drier stuff I was using earlier this year.
Posts some pics and what's the length of the chimney?
I pack it as full as I can for the night (especially). And I try to cross the wood as best as possible with N-S stack then E-W stack. This isn't always as achievable as my wood was cut for the old insert I had been using over the last 10+ years. But I do as best I can. I will try to post some pics and vids up in the next days or so. That is a good idea.
As far as secondary burn, I am not getting very much in the description you are saying where the pipes look like flame throwers. There is some secondary burn, but not like that. It took me 2 hours this morning (I woke up at 4 for some reason) and worried the this thing until 6 when it appeared to be really very hot. The thermostat on the blower is now not working, so I think that allowed the unit to get up to almost 600. When I turned the fan on manual, and gradually increased the speed, the temp on the unit went down dramatically. I had to leave for work a bit after 6, so I didn't get to see how it was doing throughout the day.
It has been about 1/2 hr to 45 mins now that I re lit the fire, no coals, just fine ash, and it is around 600. I have shut it down 1/3-1/2 and will see. The fan hasn't turned on automatically (yet), so we shall see what happens over the next hour or so as I damper it down more and more and turn the blower on.
It also should be noted that as I close the damper down, even 1/2 closed, I can hear air whooshing in, even if it is at a bit of a reduced rate from all the way open. The Jotul rep and dealer will be here to check everything out on April 2nd. I am glad you are having, as well as others, such great success with this thing. I am not, and have not, no matter how closely I have followed everyone's advice and directions here on this thread. I do appreciate everyone's input and have said so time and time again.
Answer to Question #1: I am not able to get a good secondary burn, as in gates of hell or flame thrower or whatever you want to call it.
Answer to Question #2: I did not get a new thermo yet (haven't been able to carve out the time...life, you know), but am seeing some progress with the one I have getting close to 600 or so. Probably is not a true reading. Note that as soon as the blower kicks on, the temp goes down drastically. One can almost watch the needle move it is that quick. And hot air is just being forced out.
So it must be operator error since I have only been following almost to a "T" all of your comments (and others posting) and still not getting results. Once again, it is not my fuel. Not sure about bad draft since the chimney is clean. My original chimney is 11', and we had to add on another 4-5' of stove pipe to make the minimum requirement spec'd by Jotul.
I hear what you are saying about the wood and its condition/age/moisture content/etc. I can really tell when I put a piece in there that isn't as up to par as the others. It really affects the overall performance until it is burned through, or adjustments are made.
Also should be noted that I very infrequently have to clean the glass since it is burning well enough to "wash" almost all of the smoke/creosote(?) build up that can form on the inside of the glass. This is actually one of the two or so good things about this insert.
jatoxico
Minister of Fire
When the secondaries kick in its noticeable, no mistaking it. The only time I can drop my temps rapidly with fan is when the unit is starting up from cold or burning down. When stove is hot w/ secondaries going, I can often crank the fan and still have the temp go up. A drop in temp of a few degrees is understandable, a rapid drop from 600 to 300 w/ a fresh load of good wood is not my experience anyway.
The wood has to be mentioned because it's such a common problem. The fact that your glass stays clean is some evidence that the wood is OK, but don't absolutely rule that out for the time being. You say you bought wood from a dealer recently and that its good? Where are you located?; cause let's just say, that's uncommon
.The fact that you had to add to the stack and that it's still just w/in spec w/ poor secondaries could point to draft. Have you dropped the baffles to clean it out and checked the flue and cap? I've had a fair amount of buildup on the cast iron baffles especially my first season.
Try to post pics of the outside w/ roof line and so forth. It's above my pay grade but others here know that stuff good and what the impact on draft could be. I can say good draft is required for secondary air/burn.
Puzzler, need some photos.
Been firing now for just about an hour and 15 or so. Got up temp up to where it just touched 700...FINALLY! No blower turning on, though it did start up between 550-600. Now turned the fan on, and have closed the air intake flow to 1/4-1/3. Insert is stacked with 4 year old maple that is dry as death valley and weighs almost like balsa, but not that light. Got some semblance of flame thrower/gates of hell secondary, but only through maybe a third of the tubes. Now that it shut down a bit and blower on, temp is dropping like a stone and in just the 5-10 mins is down to 500. I can feel and smell that it is hot though, like really hot, as it should be. But again, no secondary burn as you both describe. We'll see how this lasts. I have to take off for a few hours around 6:30.
When the secondaries kick in its noticeable, no mistaking it. The only time I can drop my temps rapidly with fan is when the unit is starting up from cold or burning down. When stove is hot w/ secondaries going, I can often crank the fan and still have the temp go up. A drop in temp of a few degrees is understandable, a rapid drop from 600 to 300 w/ a fresh load of good wood is not my experience anyway.
Not my experience. Wish it was.
The wood has to be mentioned because it's such a common problem. The fact that your glass stays clean is some evidence that the wood is OK, but don't absolutely rule that out for the time being. You say you bought wood from a dealer recently and that its good? Where are you located?; cause let's just say, that's uncommon
I am located in SE Mich. This wood dealer is a real character, as one can imagine. I know it is uncommon. Got to be seen. Plus the mountainous pile he has outside in back of the huge barn is staggering.
The fact that you had to add to the stack and that it's still just w/in spec w/ poor secondaries could point to draft. Have you dropped the baffles to clean it out and checked the flue and cap? I've had a fair amount of buildup on the cast iron baffles especially my first season.
Haven't done anything like that yet as far as baffles. The flue and cap are fine and brand new.
Try to post pics of the outside w/ roof line and so forth. It's above my pay grade but others here know that stuff good and what the impact on draft could be. I can say good draft is required for secondary air/burn.
Will do when I can. Not going to happen today. Sorry. Gotta head out soon for a few hours.
Puzzler, need some photos.
jatoxico
Minister of Fire
IMO you were just getting there
. As the wood heats more and more gasses will come off which feeds the secondaries. Shutting the air down a bit more at that stage may be in order. Just a test for next time, continue to shut air down a bit more. There is a limit but the more you can get the secondaries vs feeding primary air the better at least at this stage sort of as a learning exercise so you can see what it takes.It's counter intuitive but so long as the wood is good shutting the air will raise temp (to a point). I like that you could smell the heat this time
.
Good winter firewood is usually dense and heavy, even when totally dry. Is this soft maple? Or maybe poplar?
rkofler
Burning Hunk
By criss crossing the wood you should get some serious heat, but also a reduced burn time. For a longer burn you want to stack it all one way trying to fit all the pieces together, almost making it like one giant block of wood. The less air in between pieces=longer burn time. Is anyone loading during the day? If you are loading at 6am I suspect by 10am your temps will be dropping.
It is maple, not poplar. This was a huge silver maple my neighbor took down about 4 years ago. Maybe 5. Really...I have been heating my house with wood for almost 10 years now, and did so as well for over 10 years in my early 20s-30s. I cut, split, and stack all my wood myself.
I have been home for about 40 mins and have re fed the insert and big bed of coals. Temp is about 650 now, and continuing to climb. Started at somewhere around maybe 400 or so. No blower on yet. Just letting this thing heat up to the max like you both advise/instruct. House was 65 when I left between 6:15-6:30. Was 64 when I got back after 3+hours, and blower was off due to thermostat working itself. Maybe it was just some temporary thing where it was cutting out when I was running at lower temps. I never got a chance to see how high house temp got before fire started to cool back down. Let's see for the night now.
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