PSG Max Caddy Mistake?

[NotSoToasty]

Just had the Max Caddy installed with the oil burner backup, and fear I've made a big mistake!! I live in an old and drafty farm house with little insulation (issues I plan to address as the finances allow). The most immediate need was a furnace, I choose the Max Caddy. Mainly for three reasons; I have access to a plentiful supply of firewood, fuel oil as a primary source was NOT affordable and I liked that it features a back up fuel option for when I go away. I researched the square footage suggestions (I'm only heating 1400 sq ft) and spoke to my local PSG dealer on several occasions before finalizing my decision and felt confident with it. However, the unit has been installed only two days and in order for me to keep the house at 65 degrees with the wood I'm feeding the fire every hour! My small add-on wood burner from the previous system would generally hold a fire for at least 4 hours. I was hoping to extend that time with this unit, not go the other way! I brought this to the attention of the installer, whom didn't seem concerned. Perhaps my mistake wasn't with the Max Caddy, but with the installer I choose (not a lot options in my are though). Something just isn't right!! Anyone out there have experience with these units in the Central Ohio area? HELP!!

 

[laynes69]

Welcome, and let's see if we can solve some issues. The new furnace will NOT tolerate less than seasoned wood easily. So the first question would be how long has your wood been seasoning (cut and split and stacked)? Secondly, that furnace has a 4 or 4.5 cuft firebox which should be more than enough for your home. Did your installer test your draft speeds? How tall and what is the size of your chimney, and are you running a barometric damper. And finally, how much wood are you loading and how are you operating the furnace?

 

[maple1]

Did your installer test your draft speeds? How tall and what is the size of your chimney, and are you running a barometric damper.

This, echoed for emphasis.

 

[NotSoToasty]

Firewood has seasoned more than a year. Not sure on the size of chimney (this seems to be a biggie, sorry). After the first evening of inefficient burning I looked over the owners manual trouble shooting guide and then asked the installer about the barometric damper and his reply was the unit didn't come supplied with it and he could install one and bill as a service call! So no, not using one of those. I am not experienced with heating systems and thought I hired someone who was certified to do the job correctly. I am loading the firebox without overloading, meaning allowing space at top for air circulation.

 

[laynes69]

I'm heating a 2500 sqft Victorian with the smaller version of the Max Caddy. With a furnace like the Caddy series, they require a good draft. With that said, a draft that's too strong will push heat out of the chimney, and a draft too weak won't produce proper operation of the furnace. Draft needs to be tested, period. The flue size on the chimney should match that of the unit, so a 6" diameter chimney or liner should be used. As far as wood is concerned, as long as it's not hickory or oak, a year should be okay. A cheap moisture meter from harbor freight will tell you what's going on.

When operating the furnace, you should load a full load, then run with the damper open for 15 to 20 minutes. Once the firebox is hot and the wood is starting to char, then the damper can be closed. At this point if it's hot enough and you have good wood, it should produce a good hot fire. There's too many variables that play a big part on what's going on. Can you post any pictures of your setup?

 

[maple1]

Firewood has seasoned more than a year. Not sure on the size of chimney (this seems to be a biggie, sorry). After the first evening of inefficient burning I looked over the owners manual trouble shooting guide and then asked the installer about the barometric damper and his reply was the unit didn't come supplied with it and he could install one and bill as a service call! So no, not using one of those. I am not experienced with heating systems and thought I hired someone who was certified to do the job correctly. I am loading the firebox without overloading, meaning allowing space at top for air circulation.

Does the furnace manual have a specified chimney draft? Measured in ". Maybe somewhere in the 0.04" - 0.06" range? If there is a spec in the manual, it should have been measured and verified by the installer when he installed - or he didn't do his job. What does the manual say about a barometric damper? Any pro should have done this whether installing a wood unit or an oil one.

 

[flyingcow]

on Monday if you can or maybe try sooner call the manufacturer. hopefully someone is there can help you. mention that you started the thread on hearth.com trying to find help. as we all know bad news spreads like wildfire on the net. should get their attention. Would be awful nice for them to help you solve your problem and you post those findings on this thread. by the sounds of it you're installer is not familiar with wood boilers. It is kind of a niche market. if the manufacturer helps you with your problem n you posted on here it is a win-win for everybody

 

[laynes69]

The manual specifies a draft within .04"-.06" for proper operation. A 6" chimney is recommended, and if you have the oil option installed then a 7" chimney is recommended. From what I've read, the company doesn't sell these furnaces online, only thru dealers. They want to make sure their furnaces are installed correctly and operating efficiently. IMHO, if the installer didn't check draft speeds and possibly other important things, he isn't doing his job. On the other hand, the furnace may be operating correctly, just there's too much heat loss.

There's been posts on here where the Max Caddy has been installed in 2500 sqft commercial applications and heated without any issues. It has an average btu rating of 90,000 btus with a high rating of around 130,000 btus. At 1400 sqft it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Chicken Farmer]

The high wood consumption and relatively low heat output leads me to believe that you have a draft issue. If the draft is too much, it will incinerate the fuel and shoot the large portion of the heat straight out the flue. Which brings up another issue with chimney temps. If you are actually drafting that hard, your chimney temps must be crazy high. I have a class A stainless chimney, and I have had temps up to 850 in there (not on purpose).

The Caddy is a well respected unit. Installed well, with a good control over draft speed, it should run well.

 

[NotSoToasty]

First, thank you all for your insight and speedy response. Secondly, this experience has made me feel like a complete idiot!
My chimney is brick and it's unlined. YIKES! Based on your comments and an overnite study of the manual, this is the issue that needs addressed ASAP. Again, I really feel foolish for not understanding the importance of the chimney configuration. When the installer originally came to my home to estimate the cost, isn't this something he should have brought to my attention? I am just as much at fault for not educating myself on the matter before buying. I just assumed since the old heating system utilized this chimney it was fine. I also had my chimney cleaned at the end of last year, no mention of a liner then either (Pre Max Caddy).
So my thinking is to discontinue the use of the firebox and only operate on the fuel back up until I can get the chimney in proper order? (There is a barometric damper on the exhaust for the oil unit.)
I trust that the Max Caddy furnace is NOT the problem, and that the installation IS. Really awful timing on all of this, with a high of 2 and a low of -12 expected on Tuesday. Wow, do I have myself in a pickle!
Thanks again everyone, when the issue is resolved I will most certainly post an update.

 

[brenndatomu]

Firewood has seasoned more than a year.

That likely is not enough. Only a few kinds of wood really dry completely in a year. Even then, 2 is better. If you have hardwoods then 2 years MINIMUM, 3 is much better. Heck, last night I had a piece of White Oak that sizzled when I load up for the overnight burn, and it has been cut, split, and stacked, in single rows for 3 years! That brings up another question, your wood was C/S/S for that whole years time? A lot of people think that if it is laying in log form, or even bucked to length, that it is "seasoning", nope, not until it is C/S/S! Take it from someone who has burnt both "seasoned" and then, truly dry wood, there is NO comparison in heat output! If you want to test this, get some kiln dried wood like old pallets, mix that in with a load of your cord wood, see if it helps. BIO or ECO bricks work well for this test too.
I'm sayin that you have a combination of wood issues, and draft issues, that furnace NEEDS a BD (barometric damper) The dealer should have installed one. If he is a dealer he should be properly trained on installing this unit to factory specs. Otherwise, why have dealers, might as well go online/big box, just let people DIY!

 

[brenndatomu]

Just seen the post you put up while I was typing. First off, don't feel stupid, there is a steep learning curve to these things for most of us, there certainly was for me!
Yup, the chimney is the engine that powers your heating vehicle. A properly sized lined chimney is really (ahem...a REALLY) good idea. Someone should have talked with you about this. If the chimney is external to the house, then go with a insulated stainless liner, if internal to the house, uninsulated is OK (insulation still wouldn't hurt though)
OK, if you have a BD on the flue for the oil burner, I think, that will take care of the draft for the wood side too. They're both on the same chimney flue, correct? I wonder what setting they set the BD to? Did they even check the draft then adjust the BD accordingly?
EDIT: does it heat OK with the oil burner?

 

[laynes69]

With what you saying, the wood may not be as bad as I thought, but it's most definitely a draft issue. If your chimney is unlined, you need a 7" insulated liner. Not only does this help to increase draft, but it ensures safety and proper operation of the furnace.

The installer should have known better than to install the furnace in an unlined chimney. Does your max caddy have the oil option installed? Without a proper chimney, the oil side would only make draft that much weaker on the wood side. You can order a liner online, and maybe find some friends or someone you know that can install it. Otherwise, I'm guessing your looking at a 1000-1500 cost for a liner installed.

To be at code, an unlined chimney must have the liner insulated. When the liner is installed, make sure the chimney is swept.

 

[Woodfarmer1]

define unlined, most chimneys have a clay flue liner(orange in colour) the owners manual or the manufacturer will tell you if you need a steel liner.

 

[blades]

Unlined - just the cement blocks and the orange clay liner, works fine for liquid or gas fuels as they are very low on creosote forming emissions. Solid fuels on the other hand have a high particulate emissions and unless the flue is kept very warm will condense out of the exhaust gases creating flammable deposits. Solid fuel appliances operate at a much higher stack temp than liquid or gas fuels. Maintaining that high flue temp in a non-insulated masonary system is difficult at best. additionally the temps are high enough to cause over heating of support framing surrounding the flue assembly as it is radiated directly through the brick work, the clay tiles are not an insulated brick material.

 

[STIHLY DAN]

To get you thru the end of winter you can get or have made a reducer and place on top the chimney. Not the best but should get you thru this polar vortex.

 

[Woodfarmer1]

Uh blades, I wasn't asking what an unlined chimney was, I was asking the OP what his chimney was made of. Chimneys up here for ever have been brick with clay liner and used with oil or wood furnaces and with surprisingly few chimney fires. If the chimney is cleaned and maintained there shouldn't be a problem, dry wood and creosote removed as a given.

 

[NotSoToasty]

Hello to all! About this time last year, I started this thread after a disappointing start to using the Max Caddy. One year later, I'm still trying to figure it out!

Last spring we had the chimney lined to the 7" spec for the wood/oil combo furnace. I was optimistic this would solve our problem. While it has helped a great deal, the furnace is still not performing as well as I had expected/hoped. When the temp outside drops below 20, the wood unit struggles to keep the house at the 70 thermostat setting. I would expect to consume more wood as temps decrease but not to have less heat output. With that said, the house is still not well insulated and still has drafty windows. I realize this is a huge factor.

Also, last week when the temps fell to below zero the oil back up malfunctioned, went into a hard lock and choked the firebox. Woke up to a temperature of 50 in the house. Had a technician (not from the original install company) come out, he readjusted the barometric damper on the oil side and the oil worked all day. However, that very night when the fired died back and the oil should've kicked in, the oil unit went into default and chocked out the firebox. We now have the oil unit off and burning wood only, staying warm for now but the temps outside are warm too.

Open to thoughts and suggestions on how to correct this. My uneducated guess is there is still a draft issue. Thanks in advance!

 

[brenndatomu]

So the wood side damper goes into lockup if the oil burner fails? Either something is not right or that is a terrible design!
I have no experience with the Caddy, but I do know my Yukon will still run the wood damper with the oil burner kicked out.

 

[maple1]

Still haven't seen where the draft was actually measured, and set to spec.

How tall is the chimney, and is the liner insulated? Also don't think I've seen any mention of flue temps.

If these are only supposed to be sold/installed by a qualified dealer as I think I read way above, this dealer comes up a bit short. Especially with the missing baro issue from last year.

 

[laynes69]

I don't know anything about the oil side, but says if the burner fails to ignite after 3 times, it goes into lockout. I would guess the oil side is also wired into a limit. Was the unit installed by a PSG dealer? And did they measure static pressures in the ductwork? I would think if the furnace overheats, it could cause shutdown of both sides. Have you checked to make sure filters aren't plugged, or anything else in the system?

 

[JRHAWK9]

It has an average btu rating of 90,000 btus with a high rating of around 130,000 btus.

Assumptions:
- 6,000 BTU's per LB firewood
- 75% efficiency, per PSG site
- 3,600 lbs per cord of oak
- The BTU rating mentioned above is per hour

In order to produce an AVERAGE of 90,000 BTU's per hour per day one must burn 20 lbs of wood an hour for 24 hours. This amounts to 480 lbs of wood per day! ....or a little under a cord of oak a week. I don't put much faith in most manufactures claims....when you work the math things just don't make sense. Wood only has so many BTU's in it, so to claim 90,000 BTU's while also claiming 10 hour burns in a 4.5CF firebox....things just don't add up. You'd have to fit 200lbs of wood in that firebox to get 90,000 BTU's per hour and a 10 hour burn.

For the OP, get it running the way it's supposed to be before making any harsh decisions. Your installer SHOULD be the one who is the professional and SHOULD be the one who tells you what you need to do in order to get things done right. If not, what purpose does an installer serve?

 

[laynes69]

If you go to PSG's website, their catalog states the average btus is over a 5 hour period. There is a heating curve, and the peak is the high output, which occurs only an hour or two. PSG has always said to base heating output not on the high output, but average. They have their own lab for testing. I did a heat loss calculation on our home, and it matched their btu ratings. They also claim around 55 pound max load for our Caddy, but I've placed more with dense woods, which also increase output.

 

[NotSoToasty]

Yes the new liner is insulated. We went with a poured Supaflu liner. I'm guessing the chimney height between 30-35 feet.

Not sure if draft speeds were measured during initial set up and most likely they not measured after the liner was installed either. It should also be mentioned that the oil unit and the wood unit draft to the chimney separately. Both flue pipes have a barametric damper. This set up is NOT to the manual specs. I have questioned it since the very first day but the 'professionals' tell me it's fine and possibly even better?

I do know the technician that came Friday morning (not from the installing company) did measure the draft on the oil unit and adjusted the barometric damper accordingly. This didn't solve the issue though because Friday night the oil unit went into lockout after several attempts to ignite. When the oil unit calls for heat the system shuts down the front air inlet damper to the firebox. If the oil cycle is sucessful that air inlet opens back up. However an unsuccessful cycle and a continued call for heat from the oil side keeps it closed, therefore killing the firebox too.

Ive attached some pics of the set up.

 

[NotSoToasty]

Sorry, it appears my photos didn't upload!